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Ponder 2012
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Bermuda Viking


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 4978
Location: Paget, Bermuda
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Bermuda Viking wrote:


Well Ponder was handed a unicycle with a flat tire, a brokedn pedal, and yep... no seat.


By any reasonable account Christian Ponder stepped into a situation no worse than that of Cam Newton, Andy Dalton or T.J. Yates. All of whom had much better rookie seasons.


Really? I didnt see Andy Dalton or Yates getting stuffed in the turf every other play even after running for their life.. Quicker release would you say?

CaM Newton changes the way the defense plays.

No respect of any kind was given to the Vikings wr's or o-line. It was blitz blitz blitz almost every play from all sorts of angles. It was staggering. And teams knew their offense could score on our defense so they were even trying exotic blitzes as if it were a scrimmage. That did not happen to the Bengals or the Texans.

I think Ponder definitely had it worse. He was imply under more pressure with less protection and less weapons than the rest.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kellerman wrote:

I don't think it's at all reasonable to compare these situations.

The Texans had a good offense that was held back by their D. They added JJ Watt, Jonathan Joseph, Wade Phillips, became balanced, and went on to make the play-offs.




Cam Newton stepped into a team that went 2-14 the previous year. The team had a new coach, new offence, new OC. Overall he had no more talent on offence than Ponder did, and he had one of the best rookie QB seasons ever.

Andy Dalton stepped into a team that went 4-12 the previous year. And they went to the playoffs with him at QB. So yeah, he had AJ Green to throw to, but he also went out and won football games when he had the chance.

Yates stepped in as starter in Texas when Schaub and Leinart got hurt in consecutive weeks. That is, he was a third string rookie QB who had to take over a playoff team and was asked to win football games. All this with almost no practice reps. And he was without Andre Johnson for almost his entire stint as starter.
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Vikefan79


Joined: 05 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Costello wrote:
Ponder's first game against GB is all the faith I need. He can be a successful QB in this league given more time and weapons.


Agreed. I watched clips from that game yesterday. He made some great throws in that game.
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Virginia Viking


Joined: 27 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Kellerman wrote:

I don't think it's at all reasonable to compare these situations.

The Texans had a good offense that was held back by their D. They added JJ Watt, Jonathan Joseph, Wade Phillips, became balanced, and went on to make the play-offs.




Cam Newton stepped into a team that went 2-14 the previous year. The team had a new coach, new offence, new OC. Overall he had no more talent on offence than Ponder did, and he had one of the best rookie QB seasons ever.

Andy Dalton stepped into a team that went 4-12 the previous year. And they went to the playoffs with him at QB. So yeah, he had AJ Green to throw to, but he also went out and won football games when he had the chance.

Yates stepped in as starter in Texas when Schaub and Leinart got hurt in consecutive weeks. That is, he was a third string rookie QB who had to take over a playoff team and was asked to win football games. All this with almost no practice reps. And he was without Andre Johnson for almost his entire stint as starter.


NO rookie will match Newtons' performance for many, many years. I will go out on a limb and predict that Newton will not have nearly the success this season as last.

While the Bengals were a poor team in 2010, they were pretty good in 2009, with Carson Palmer as qb, they swept the AFC North, if I recall. The 2011 team was much improved over the 2009 team and they played an easier schedule. I'm not sure that the Bengals, with Dalton as qb, will be in the playoff hunt at the end of the season.

Yates job in the games he played, was to NOT LOSE. Letting Foster run, and the defense do it's thing, helps a young qb tremendously. Let's not forget, the Texans o-line was considered one of the top units last year.

I don't know if Ponder is THE answer, however, I do think it's wrong to judge qb's on their first year of play, be it bad or good! Newton and Dalton will come back to the pack...and Ponder will improve.
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french t0ast


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Kellerman wrote:

I don't think it's at all reasonable to compare these situations.

The Texans had a good offense that was held back by their D. They added JJ Watt, Jonathan Joseph, Wade Phillips, became balanced, and went on to make the play-offs.




Cam Newton stepped into a team that went 2-14 the previous year. The team had a new coach, new offence, new OC. Overall he had no more talent on offence than Ponder did, and he had one of the best rookie QB seasons ever.

Andy Dalton stepped into a team that went 4-12 the previous year. And they went to the playoffs with him at QB. So yeah, he had AJ Green to throw to, but he also went out and won football games when he had the chance.

Yates stepped in as starter in Texas when Schaub and Leinart got hurt in consecutive weeks. That is, he was a third string rookie QB who had to take over a playoff team and was asked to win football games. All this with almost no practice reps. And he was without Andre Johnson for almost his entire stint as starter.


I think one thing that really helped both Andy and Yates, is that they were fortunate to have had very good defenses. Yates had the number 2 rated defense, while Andy had the 7th.
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The way Ponder slams the ball with authority into the RB's gut is so inspirational, makes me want to be a better person.
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Kellerman


Joined: 16 May 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Kellerman wrote:

I don't think it's at all reasonable to compare these situations.

The Texans had a good offense that was held back by their D. They added JJ Watt, Jonathan Joseph, Wade Phillips, became balanced, and went on to make the play-offs.




Cam Newton stepped into a team that went 2-14 the previous year. The team had a new coach, new offence, new OC. Overall he had no more talent on offence than Ponder did, and he had one of the best rookie QB seasons ever.

Andy Dalton stepped into a team that went 4-12 the previous year. And they went to the playoffs with him at QB. So yeah, he had AJ Green to throw to, but he also went out and won football games when he had the chance.

Yates stepped in as starter in Texas when Schaub and Leinart got hurt in consecutive weeks. That is, he was a third string rookie QB who had to take over a playoff team and was asked to win football games. All this with almost no practice reps. And he was without Andre Johnson for almost his entire stint as starter.


You honestly think that the Bengals and Texans teams last year were, in any way shape or form, comparable in talent to the Vikings? I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous, insane even. These teams had TOP 10 DEFENSES, both in yardage and points allowed. The Vikings, by comparison, finished 31st in points allowed. This was also the team that broke the record for games without an interception.

The Bengals have bookend tackles in Whitworth/Smith, with AJ Green and Gresham to throw to. The Texans lost Andre Johnson, but still had Arian Foster, Owen Daniels, and the best O-line scheme in the league (with 2nd team All-Pro LT).

The only comparison that comes close is the Panthers. Overall, I thought they were a better team last year. Their defense was better a bit better, even with two rookie starting at DT. Less points give up, more picks, more passes defended, etc. We only had more sacks. Offensively there was just more to work with. Steve Smith, Olsen, Shockey, Williams, Stewart, and a decent O-line. More comparable, but I'd still take the Panthers over the Vikings last year.

You've made this argument before, I don't understand where this is coming from. Do you really believe that all rookie QB's that come into the league land in exactly the same situation, with exactly the same help?? Because that is, in essence, what you are saying.
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Swaps


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the whole team was bad last year, we had backups starting almost the entire season, and a starting QB who is out of the league because nobody wants to deal with his ego and other garbage.


Ponder will be better this year because he has protection and time to get his reads. A QB who has time means WRs can get open. Open WRs mean they can catch passes. Caught passes mean the Vikings can score points. Points scored mean we dont rely on the defense to keep us in games every week.
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PurpleMugen


Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikefan79 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
Ponder's first game against GB is all the faith I need. He can be a successful QB in this league given more time and weapons.


Agreed. I watched clips from that game yesterday. He made some great throws in that game.


He did indeed make some great throws in that game, but he threw just as many - if not more - terrible passes.

Charles Woodson dropped two simple interceptions - Woodson himself said after the game that he should have had 4 picks, not just 2. And the stats are still a bit skewed from that game because Ponder's first pass was a 70+-yard bomb when the GB defense wasn't expecting it.
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wcblack34


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I don't see how Ponder's situation is comparable to Dalton's, Yates', or Newton's.

Cincy had a far superior defense and offensive line. They also had offensive balance.

Carolina had an excellent line, 2 very good/excellent running backs, 2 very good TE's, and one of the best deep threats in the game.

Houston, well, Milanb said it, they were a playoff team without Yates, so he just had to not lose. They had the game's best offensive line and rushing attack, and had an excellent defense.

The only reasonable comparison is Jacksonville. They were just as devoid of talent as we were.
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Vikefan79


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PurpleMugen wrote:
Vikefan79 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
Ponder's first game against GB is all the faith I need. He can be a successful QB in this league given more time and weapons.


Agreed. I watched clips from that game yesterday. He made some great throws in that game.


He did indeed make some great throws in that game, but he threw just as many - if not more - terrible passes.

Charles Woodson dropped two simple interceptions - Woodson himself said after the game that he should have had 4 picks, not just 2. And the stats are still a bit skewed from that game because Ponder's first pass was a 70+-yard bomb when the GB defense wasn't expecting it.



Michael Jenkins completely embarassed the Packer corner on that route. It wasn't that it was unexpected.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikefan79 wrote:
PurpleMugen wrote:
Vikefan79 wrote:
Frank Costello wrote:
Ponder's first game against GB is all the faith I need. He can be a successful QB in this league given more time and weapons.


Agreed. I watched clips from that game yesterday. He made some great throws in that game.


He did indeed make some great throws in that game, but he threw just as many - if not more - terrible passes.

Charles Woodson dropped two simple interceptions - Woodson himself said after the game that he should have had 4 picks, not just 2. And the stats are still a bit skewed from that game because Ponder's first pass was a 70+-yard bomb when the GB defense wasn't expecting it.



Michael Jenkins completely embarassed the Packer corner on that route. It wasn't that it was unexpected.


Okay. That's fine. My point is unaffected.
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BoarBalls


Joined: 16 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Bermuda Viking wrote:


Well Ponder was handed a unicycle with a flat tire, a brokedn pedal, and yep... no seat.


By any reasonable account Christian Ponder stepped into a situation no worse than that of Cam Newton, Andy Dalton or T.J. Yates. All of whom had much better rookie seasons.


Dalton had one of the best o-lines in football. Aj green and simpson and a very solid vet gresham. Yates played for one of the best offenses in the nfl, period. And Newton, well Newton is Newton. A freak.
Ponder had the worst oline in the nfl and one of the worst receiving corps. Plus a defense that couldn't stop anyone, which put a ton of pressure on him.

That said, the jury is still out.
I was surprised by his arm strength. Showed great ability to make plays outside the pocket. Great leadership. At times had great pocket awareness.
The thing that scared me the most is that he looked like he was in a hurry and showed an inability to go through reads and see the field clearly. Also showed poor ball skills on fakes and such. All of this is typical for a rookie, especially one without an offensive line to speak of.

I still think he has the tools to be something special and possibly the second best qb to come out of that draft. Right now, to me, he compares favorably to Romo in a lot of ways and I'm excited to see what he can do with better weapons and an offensive line.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he can be mediocre - average this coming year. I think last year was tough on him, for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is I think his coaches stink, and that hasn't change, unfortunately.

I expect about the 15th best QB next year, with scoring a few more points per game than last year.

I don't expect many more wins, but QBs should be judged on points scored by the O, not how many points their awful D gives up...
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
[UMN] wrote:
Historical data shows that rookie QB's struggle, 2nd year QB's are mediocre/average, and they really hit their stride in their 3rd year. Considering everything that was going against Ponder last year due to the lockout (and the OL/WR being terrible) I expect to see a noticeable jump in performance this year. However, I don't expect him to really reach his potential and shine until 2013.


The recent trend for first round QBs has been for them to play well early and then level off: Flacco, Ryan, Sanchez, Bradford, Freeman, Young — or to bust completely: Quinn, Russell, Leinart.

Matthew Stafford is really the only one of the bunch who struggled as a rookie then put it all together. And Stafford stepped into a team that went 0-16 the previous year, and he got hurt his first two seasons.

For the most part, if a QB is going to be successful in this league he shows it very early in his career.


so we are no longer in the early part of Christian's career? Where did we go?

As far as I'm concerned, every QB is different. I don't think by any means we know what we will get from Christian, we have an idea, but can anyone say for sure what WILL happen (not a prediction)?

Christian has all the tools around him, and the offense is being molded into something that fits around our players strengths.

While I don't know that we can say he'll be elite anytime soon, I do think he will improve and play pretty good this upcoming, and hopefully in the 2013 season will be when he really hits his stride.
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this providence


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't see much there last season that would lead me to believe he has a future in this league as a viable starting option.

For me, he has to show significant development and progression this season. Average play from Ponder just isn't enough to hand him a job in 2013. Especially considering where this team will likely be selecting. Giving a QB prospect like Ponder 3 years before moving on means they've just wasted all of their franchise player's prime. It's one thing to make a mistake, it's another to continue to ride that mistake in hopes he turns into something down the line.
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