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hemm68


Joined: 24 Apr 2009
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Location: the other frozen tundra
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: 2012 draft Reply with quote

I have been mulling our draft for the past week or so, and I keep coming away disapointed. Maybe It's us being spoiled with top 50 talent falling to our first three picks year in and year out. I however can't help but feel we left alot of talent on the board.
I have not been able to talk alot about the ravens draft with other ravens fans so hopefully someone can answer my questions.

Starting with our first pick. #35 Upshaw

This pick seems solid at first until I look at our crop of OLB. We have Suggs the reigning DPOTY. Then we have two other second rounders on our team in Kindle and Kruger.

I feel like we are throwing these two to the wolves with our ability to put maybe three of those guys max on the field in an obvious passing down. Essentially wasting those past draft picks. Kindle was toted to be similar to Upshaw in a pass rushing talent that would provide a solid bookend to Sizzle. So far due to unfortunate circumstances and an already insane amount of depth at the position he hasn't found the field. However remembering the small amount he played against the NY jets this year I came away very impressed at his potential.

Second I feel with this pick we left some considerable talent on the board With position of need such as LDE With Devon Still and Derek Wolfe still being on the board. Along with what i see as a carbon copy of Grubbs in Cordy Glenn and Offensive talent such as Jonathan Martin, Stephen Hill, and Alshon Jeffrey.

The only reason I could justify this pick is the fact that I can see Upshaw's Body type being more suitable as a run defender on the strong side with his short stout stature which also was his biggest knock on being an effective pass rusher.

# 60 Kelechi Osemele
This pick I have no issue with. It seemed to be the best talent on the board to me, and from what I have read seems to project very similar to Michael Oher on the inside. This was my favorite pick of the draft after some thought

# 84 Bernard Pierce

This is the other pick I have the most issue with. To trade up and use multiple draft picks in the third for a backup RB in my mind is to be rightfully criticized. There was alot of talent left on the board at this point and my Immediate thought was we were picking up Sanu. Until the Bengals picked him the pick beforehand. Brandon Thompson, Jake Bequette, and Akiem Hicks come to mind.

Now I do understand this was not a normal year for the Ravens with alot of our Top 150 coming off the board which is extremely rare. Which explains all the small school prospects coming off with our next three picks and I find that a very good move on Ozzies part.

Anyway I apologize for the length of my post I Just needed some insight from other ravens fans. Feel free to agree, disagree, or completely pick me apart.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it the Upshaw pick is making sure our OLB spot isn't a weakness. The team would love to proceed as if Kindle were healthy, but they can't. Kruger is our only legitimate option and he isn't yet fully proven. With this being Kindle's first year in the offseason program one would expect him to make vast improvements. This is a passing league and if all 3 of Kindle, Kruger, Upshaw pan out its a good problem to have... This is a copycat league and with the Giants having won two superbowls in 5 years, teams are realizing that the best formula for beating an elite QB is to have plenty of pass rushing depth. We very well could have 4 really good threats off the edge. We can survive a Suggs injury much better than in any prior season.

K.O. Has elite guard potential. He just needs to improve his balance and footwork. Otherwise he'll be a beast IMO. Personally I think Grubbs was overrated. Having garbage guard depth made him look more valuable than he was. He just never brought an elite skillet to the table IMO. I don't think we see much or any drop off with either rookie K.O. Or sophomore Reid... And I wouldn't be surprised if they upgrade the spot.

c0 made a great comparison with Bernard Pierce, he compared him to former pro bowl back Shaun Alexander. I compared him to Arian Foster but he doesn't play quite as strong. Pierce isn't "just" a backup. He's a weapon in his own right. Look at the Texans running game for example. Would you consider Ben Tate "just" a backup RB? What about with Priest Holmes behind Jamal Lewis, was he "just" a backup? He was a 1000 yard rusher prior to Lewis and as a backup had over 500 rushing yards... He went to the Chiefs and went beast mode.

I'm obviously biased because Bernard "Freeway" Pierce was my favorite selection of the bunch. I though he was in that second tier of running backs behind Richardson and he was the 2nd to last one to go... Lamar Miller being last. And I viewed Pierce as being better than both Miller and Pead (slightly). Most of the other 2nd tier backs when mid 2nd and up... We got Pierce in the mid-late 3rd... I personally think he's a steal. I love this pick just as much as when we took Ray Rice in the 2nd.

Pierce is a complete back and as far as I'm concerned the only thing he lacks is breakaway spread and elite wiggle. He has elite RB vision and cutback ability. He rarely goes down on first contact. He's a big slashing back that runs with an attitude. He's a workhorse with no real durability concerns. But hey, this is all coming from a guy who is considering changing his Jimmy Smith sig to a Bernard Pierce one...
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RAVINGMADD


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can always use fresh pass rushers. I definitely don't see taking Upshaw as a waste at all. I wouldn't want to put all my hope in Kindle working out. If he doesn't and we don't take Upshaw, we only would have had really 2 guys in Suggs and Kruger. You need at least 3 guys to rotate in there, preferably more. I saw the OLB/pass rush as something we should probably look at in the first 2 rounds because it's a position that can make the most impact early on.

At first, I didn't like the Bernard Pierce pick and especially the trade up. I was kind of waiting for a WR and when we traded up for a RB, I was like WTF. But now, I really like the pick because RB is yet another position that can make an impact early and it's a position that teams don't spend a lot of picks on so good ones can fall. You can't just have one primary back and as much as I like Anthony Allen, two backs just isn't enough if you have an injury. Bernard Pierce should provide an upgrade over Anthony Allen and something a little different as well. I really like the dynamic of our top 3 RB's now. Akiem Hicks is a guy I would have licked though, but I feel like Pierce is probably going to make more of an impact for us this year than Hicks would. A good #2 RB is being severely underrated and I know because I was guilty of it also. Especially in this offense, a good #2 RB is also probably more important than a 3rd WR.
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oher74


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is off topic but i didnt want to make a new topic just to ask if anybody heard if they gave out jersey numbers for our rookies yet.
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DrunkenRaven14


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oher74 wrote:
I know this is off topic but i didnt want to make a new topic just to ask if anybody heard if they gave out jersey numbers for our rookies yet.

Asa Jackson will be wearing #25. That's all I have heard.
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Boodgyman5220


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think one of the greatest assets of our defense last year was our depth. Especially on our line/pass rushers. Having good depth allowed us to always have fresh pass rushers. That being said, I have no problem with the upshaw pick. He was good value at the pick and will help our defense stay dominant. Many of us thought johnson was the glue of our defense. From everything I've heard, upshaw is very similar to johnson so i'm happy with the pick
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Sessy


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: 2012 draft Reply with quote

hemm68 wrote:
I have been mulling our draft for the past week or so, and I keep coming away disapointed. Maybe It's us being spoiled with top 50 talent falling to our first three picks year in and year out. I however can't help but feel we left alot of talent on the board.
I have not been able to talk alot about the ravens draft with other ravens fans so hopefully someone can answer my questions.

Starting with our first pick. #35 Upshaw

This pick seems solid at first until I look at our crop of OLB. We have Suggs the reigning DPOTY. Then we have two other second rounders on our team in Kindle and Kruger.

I feel like we are throwing these two to the wolves with our ability to put maybe three of those guys max on the field in an obvious passing down. Essentially wasting those past draft picks. Kindle was toted to be similar to Upshaw in a pass rushing talent that would provide a solid bookend to Sizzle. So far due to unfortunate circumstances and an already insane amount of depth at the position he hasn't found the field. However remembering the small amount he played against the NY jets this year I came away very impressed at his potential.

Second I feel with this pick we left some considerable talent on the board With position of need such as LDE With Devon Still and Derek Wolfe still being on the board. Along with what i see as a carbon copy of Grubbs in Cordy Glenn and Offensive talent such as Jonathan Martin, Stephen Hill, and Alshon Jeffrey.

The only reason I could justify this pick is the fact that I can see Upshaw's Body type being more suitable as a run defender on the strong side with his short stout stature which also was his biggest knock on being an effective pass rusher.

# 60 Kelechi Osemele
This pick I have no issue with. It seemed to be the best talent on the board to me, and from what I have read seems to project very similar to Michael Oher on the inside. This was my favorite pick of the draft after some thought

# 84 Bernard Pierce

This is the other pick I have the most issue with. To trade up and use multiple draft picks in the third for a backup RB in my mind is to be rightfully criticized. There was alot of talent left on the board at this point and my Immediate thought was we were picking up Sanu. Until the Bengals picked him the pick beforehand. Brandon Thompson, Jake Bequette, and Akiem Hicks come to mind.

Now I do understand this was not a normal year for the Ravens with alot of our Top 150 coming off the board which is extremely rare. Which explains all the small school prospects coming off with our next three picks and I find that a very good move on Ozzies part.

Anyway I apologize for the length of my post I Just needed some insight from other ravens fans. Feel free to agree, disagree, or completely pick me apart.


You're telling me you thought the LDE spot was a bigger need than OLB? I mean, I get that depth is needed, but shoot, I think McPhee is WAY more ready to start then Krugar is. There's tons of holes in Paul's game, and I don't think there's nearly as many in McPhee's game.

McPhee's rookie year was tons better than Krugar's first two, and was probably better than his third year as well. I see McPhee getting better, and even being an upgrade over Redding in a lot of ways. Depth was needed, sure, but only to replace the backup role. The starting lineup at the OLB position was a major question mark imo.

I think we need to start thinking along the lines of "expect nothing, hope for more" with Kindle as well. I hope he turns out to be something, but I don't think we quite know the severity of his injury and it's long term ramifications. Not ready to call him a bust yet, but after this year we could.

With Pierce, it was clear to me that we felt like we needed a backup RB in this draft, and they were going quickly. Pierce was probably the last guy available we thought had a chance to start at any point if Ray Rice went down (God forbid). With that in mind, we had to get him, and we only gave up a late fifth to do so.

At the end of the day, we came away with 8 players. 2 of them I think start immediately (Upshaw, KO), 2 of them will be top backups and even potential starters in the future (Gino, Thompson), and 2 of them I see playing major roles as rookies even though their not starters (Pierce as the #2 RB, and Asa as the KR).

Of the two remaining picks, one of them is a WR who's crazy athletic and has a huge ceiling in Streeter, and the other guy I have no idea about even though I like the position.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oher74 wrote:
I know this is off topic but i didnt want to make a new topic just to ask if anybody heard if they gave out jersey numbers for our rookies yet.

The two I've seen on twitter are Upshaw - #91 and Streeter - #11

I assume that KO, Pierce, Gradkowski and Thompson will wear their college numbers as they are all available
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hemm68


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I do believe LDE was a bigger need that OLB. But that points moot now. I'm sure glad to have Upshaw now that Suggs went down... Embarassed
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hemm68


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well obviously my tune has changed since the suggs injury. But it has to. Anyway yes I saw LDE as a bigger need then rather then another OLB because we had two players to compete there when we only need one to play the position. Where as with the defensive end we have one who hasn't done much in the league in Art Jones. Then another who is on the light side to be a strong side end with raw run stuffing ability in Pernell McPhee. Albeit his pass rushing skills are a strength.

Ozzie has said himself that our longevity in successfully stopping the run is largely credited to our ability to keep rotating fresh big bodies down the stretch and I don't see a lot of serviceable talent at the defensive end position in free agency. Therefore I had it ranked as a larger need.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hemm68 wrote:
Well obviously my tune has changed since the suggs injury. But it has to. Anyway yes I saw LDE as a bigger need then rather then another OLB because we had two players to compete there when we only need one to play the position. Where as with the defensive end we have one who hasn't done much in the league in Art Jones. Then another who is on the light side to be a strong side end with raw run stuffing ability in Pernell McPhee. Albeit his pass rushing skills are a strength.

Ozzie has said himself that our longevity in successfully stopping the run is largely credited to our ability to keep rotating fresh big bodies down the stretch and I don't see a lot of serviceable talent at the defensive end position in free agency. Therefore I had it ranked as a larger need.


But can't your logic be applied to OLB as well?

You say Art Jones hasn't done much in the league, yet we have Sergio Kindle who has shown even less.

Then you mention McPhee and question his ability against the run which is pretty much exactly what the question on Kruger is.

Personally, I had them both ranked at the same level. I was happy with the Upshaw pick and I would have loved to pick up a guy like Crick later on.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
The way I see it the Upshaw pick is making sure our OLB spot isn't a weakness. The team would love to proceed as if Kindle were healthy, but they can't. Kruger is our only legitimate option and he isn't yet fully proven. With this being Kindle's first year in the offseason program one would expect him to make vast improvements. This is a passing league and if all 3 of Kindle, Kruger, Upshaw pan out its a good problem to have... This is a copycat league and with the Giants having won two superbowls in 5 years, teams are realizing that the best formula for beating an elite QB is to have plenty of pass rushing depth. We very well could have 4 really good threats off the edge. We can survive a Suggs injury much better than in any prior season.

I knew I should've knocked on Wood.. Crying or Very sad

But yeah the point still stands.

And in terms of the OLB/DE thing, I thought DE was a bigger need. Simply because I thought Kruger/Kindle/McAdoo was ready a solid competition. And barring injury I felt/feel we could much better handle a Suggs injury than handle a Ngata injury (knock on wood). Our depth there is a serious problem and I still trust Kruger more than I trust McPhee. Kruger was still making an impact come playoff time... Whereas McPhee either hit a rookie wall or teams began to figure him out... I also felt he saw more snaps than Kruger which is why he had better sack numbers. Also McPhee's production declined a lot when Ngata had his thigh injury. I'm still skeptical of him, I recognize that he could be really good and he's already a steal, but how much of his production was Ngata drawing triple teams and how much of it was just McPhee being a beast? I see more questions at that DE spot than I'm comfortable with.
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hemm68


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knock on wood...

I'd like to address the pick of Bernard Pierce since I never hit on it.

I don't like the Bernard Pierce pick for a couple reasons. First, The fact that we gave up two picks for a Backup Running back when there was still talent on the board and holes on this team.

Now I remember the comparisions to The Priest Holmes/Jamal Lewis and Arian Foster/Ben Tate Combinations. Now as weak as it may sound. I see a difference in those tandems and our perceived tandem in the case that one of the players on each side were undrafted. Ben Tate was drafted in the second round before Fosters breakout year as a perceived need, And I'm too young to remember the Priest/Lewis situation(I believe I was ten when jamal was drafted). But I do know Priest Holmes was an udfa.

Being From Minnesota may sour my point of view but when i think of trading up for a runningback I think of Toby Gerhart. For the few that don't know the Vikings traded up to get him in the second round to backup Adrian. Now when Adrian is healthy Toby sees very little action. Maybe 6-8 carries a game. His stats are skewed for the past two years in that Adrian has missed multiple games.

Everytime I see Toby sitting on the sideline all i can think of is how thats one high pick and one lower pick for the trade up thats not on the field helping his team.

Next, History has shown the Ravens to be a one horse team. The exception being Rice/McGahee which Harbaugh was forced to make work because of McGahee's contract and Rice's high draft status.

A far more common Situation would be when Chester Taylor was on this team backing up Jamal Lewis. Now Chester was a sixth rounder but it still gives a backbone to my view. Now I will give credit that Chester was a valued receiver in his last few years here. But thats besides the point because Lewis was nowhere near the receiver Rice is. The only year Chester broke 500 yards as a Raven was when he started four games for the Ravens in 2004. Essentially a fantasy handcuff for Lewis if you will. Otherwise he averaged under 7 carries a game.

A more recent one would be the Rice/Williams combination. Williams was a productive backup for us. Yet only was averaging 6.75 carries per game and had two touchdowns the entire year.
This is not the Value I want out of a third round player.

Now to Pierce personally. The biggest concern I have with Pierce is his ball security. I don't know the exact stats but I know fumbles are an issue. I cringed everytime Ricky Williams touched the ball last year reliving his fumble against the Steelers. I groaned everytime Adrian Peterson coughed the ball up until he improved his ball security. It is a trait I absolutely abhor in a Halfback.

Another Problem is Pierce's lack of versatility. One return in his career and only 18 catches. If we are gonna give up a third round pick for a runningback. I want some value. Either a full blown powerback to use on the goalline and wear down a team. Or a Jahvid Best/Reggie Bush back with returnability and versatility.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the brevity, posting from my phone. I just find it funny that you say bp isn't what you want in a third round pick, and go on to say you want a bush or best type of back. Both of those guys were first rounders. I realize this is a draft site at heart, so ppl naturally tend to overrate the long term potential of picks, envisioning every pick being a starter, at least in a year or two, or a high impact role player. A guy who gives you ~7 carries a game and provides some reliability as a backup at a position like rb is absolutely worth a 3rd.
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hemm68


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
Sorry for the brevity, posting from my phone. I just find it funny that you say bp isn't what you want in a third round pick, and go on to say you want a bush or best type of back. Both of those guys were first rounders. I realize this is a draft site at heart, so ppl naturally tend to overrate the long term potential of picks, envisioning every pick being a starter, at least in a year or two, or a high impact role player. A guy who gives you ~7 carries a game and provides some reliability as a backup at a position like rb is absolutely worth a 3rd.


Kinda paraphrasing here aren't we? Anyway, I never said i didn't want bpa. I don't believe Pierce was the BPA at that spot and if you go further up I name a few possibilites. Also I feel you throw the BPA theory out the window whenever you trade up as your particularly targeting a player. An example just off the top of my head the jaguars last year trading up for Blaine Gabbert. BPA I think not but definitely a player they want.

I stated that I do not like the fact of trading up and using two picks on a back up running back. So your ~7 carries a game is really a 3rd and 5th round pick which probably equals out to a low second high third round pick. When teams have found quality backup running backs in the 6th-7th as well as the UDFA stage.

As far as the Bush/Best comment. I was pertaining to a certain skillset. To name a few others that are not first round picks. Joe Mcknight, Darren Sproles, Tolbert from the chargers.

While I'm on here. Ozzie came away from the draft saying that alot of our top 100 players had come off by our 3rd round pick. Gut instinct is this an anomaly or a trend?
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