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Purplexing
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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Location: Outside Valhalla, looking in.
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| vike daddy wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: | | I see 2012 as a rebuilding year, so the loss of the starting QB to an injury is not as big a concern as when the team has a chance of making the playoffs. |
why? why compare our needed growth to a playoff bound team, that's not our situation so not relevant.
how do you rebuild a team and build chemistry with new players if your #1 QB is not available? if you are fortunate enough to have a #2 QB, like we do in Webb, who has actual game experience and a rapport with the coaches, your chances of rebuilding increase. |
I entertained SteelVikings' idea of trading Webb before the deadline in the 2012 season. My requirement is that Ponder played well enough to make that trade. And, then, if Ponder were injured, Rosenfels would become the #2 QB. And, as you said about Webb, Sage has game experience, and has a rapport with the coaches because he was re-signed at the start of free agency.
If Ponder were to be injured after the trade deadline, there would have been enough time for the Vikings to 'develop together', so the loss of Ponder, replaced by Rosenfels, wouldn't significantly interrupt the 'development' of the young team, except Ponder's participation is truncated.
Cue the Jim Mora 'playoffs' video!
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Purplexing
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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Location: Outside Valhalla, looking in.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kellerman wrote: | I don't think we should trade Webb, because I think he's worth more to us than to other teams.
As for the back-up QB, in the future I'd like to have the first two QB's be the same type, that way the system doesn't have to change much. Webb and Ponder are too different as QB's in my mind, and I don't believe in the concept of a ''change-of-pace QB''. |
I think NFL teams simply sign the best available backup QB that fits their scheme, but if he isn't a perfect clone of the starter, so be it.
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Kellerman
Joined: 16 May 2010
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Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Purplexing wrote: | | Kellerman wrote: | I don't think we should trade Webb, because I think he's worth more to us than to other teams.
As for the back-up QB, in the future I'd like to have the first two QB's be the same type, that way the system doesn't have to change much. Webb and Ponder are too different as QB's in my mind, and I don't believe in the concept of a ''change-of-pace QB''. |
I think NFL teams simply sign the best available backup QB that fits their scheme, but if he isn't a perfect clone of the starter, so be it. |
Well, ideally you'd like to get as close as possible.
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39530
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Purplexing wrote: | | Kellerman wrote: | I don't think we should trade Webb, because I think he's worth more to us than to other teams.
As for the back-up QB, in the future I'd like to have the first two QB's be the same type, that way the system doesn't have to change much. Webb and Ponder are too different as QB's in my mind, and I don't believe in the concept of a ''change-of-pace QB''. |
I think NFL teams simply sign the best available backup QB that fits their scheme, but if he isn't a perfect clone of the starter, so be it. |
I actually prefer the Joe Webb types as my backup QBs. You cant expect the backup to come in and replace the starter in the offense with ease, its really hard to find that guy. why not have a guy like Webb who you know is a big time threat every time the ball is in his hands. |
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Purplexing
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| vikingsrule wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: | | Kellerman wrote: | I don't think we should trade Webb, because I think he's worth more to us than to other teams.
As for the back-up QB, in the future I'd like to have the first two QB's be the same type, that way the system doesn't have to change much. Webb and Ponder are too different as QB's in my mind, and I don't believe in the concept of a ''change-of-pace QB''. |
I think NFL teams simply sign the best available backup QB that fits their scheme, but if he isn't a perfect clone of the starter, so be it. |
I actually prefer the Joe Webb types as my backup QBs. You cant expect the backup to come in and replace the starter in the offense with ease, its really hard to find that guy. why not have a guy like Webb who you know is a big time threat every time the ball is in his hands. |
In a relief role, sure. But we saw that when teams were able to prepare for his style of play, i.e. knew he would start when Ponder was injured, he wasn't as effective.
So, keeping a QB for a relief role due to his different style of play is an inefficient use of a roster spot.
For 2012, Webb is OK as a backup. But his trade value should be explored after the season, assuming the Vikings can find a developmental QB in the 2012 pre-season, or 2013 free agency.
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DJC71
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Trade Joe Webb? You'd sooner convince me that William Shatner and Kathleen Turner aren't the same person. Not buyin it. |
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VikingsNeverWin
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Joe Webb should be the starter. Pressure to try to prove the #12 pick isn't waste of time is the only reason they letting Ponder start. Webb is basically the formula of what QBs are becoming (See Newton,RGIII) ..So not looking forward to another Ponder lead season. If only my name on this forum could one day be changed.  ..never thought I'd see a top 3 pick (even though we traded to 4) ever made by the Vikings. I was born in 1980. |
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| VikingsNeverWin wrote: | | Joe Webb should be the starter. Pressure to try to prove the #12 pick isn't waste of time is the only reason they letting Ponder start. Webb is basically the formula of what QBs are becoming (See Newton,RGIII) ..So not looking forward to another Ponder lead season. If only my name on this forum could one day be changed. ..never thought I'd see a top 3 pick (even though we traded to 4) ever made by the Vikings. I was born in 1980. |
Newton is the exception not the rule. There isnt a single QB like Newton in the NFL currently. The NFL will awlays favor QBs who are great decision makers most of all, that trend will never change. Whether or not that QB is a great athlete, has a big arm, or uncanny accuracy; decision making skills is the true trend of what defines a successful NFL QB. I think we are selling Ponder's athleticism a bit short, that guy has wheels. Sure he isnt like Webb, but I think Ponder has better natural passing skills than Webb and being able to pass as a QB will get you further than scrambling ability. |
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JDBrocks
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Purplexing wrote: | | For 2012, Webb is OK as a backup. But his trade value should be explored after the season, assuming the Vikings can find a developmental QB in the 2012 pre-season, or 2013 free agency. |
You keep throwing Webb out as trade bait. Who is trading for Webb? What team is giving you back the value that you are losing?
Asante Samuel netted a 7th round pick. Who is trading more than that for Joe Webb? Which back up QBs are worse than Joe Webb right now?
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Kellerman
Joined: 16 May 2010
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Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| JDBrocks wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: | | For 2012, Webb is OK as a backup. But his trade value should be explored after the season, assuming the Vikings can find a developmental QB in the 2012 pre-season, or 2013 free agency. |
Asante Samuel netted a 7th round pick. Who is trading more than that for Joe Webb? Which back up QBs are worse than Joe Webb right now? |
Totally different situations. Samuel was 31 year old CB with a huge cap number on a team with DRC and Scrabble. Joe Webb is a young QB who makes $500k.
In the case of Webb's potential trade value, you have to think that a team will pick him up, should he be released. The question then becomes, how many teams are interested, and does that drive up the price to a point where a team will give a late round pick to get him.
That said, why trade Webb? While I'm on the Ponder bandwagon, I'll readily admit that he's far from a sure thing. The only situation you can try to trade your back-up is the Schaub/Kolb trades, where you have your long-term answer at QB. Trading Webb would be a bad idea, unless there was another young QB that overtakes him on the roster.
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Purplexing
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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Location: Outside Valhalla, looking in.
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Kellerman wrote: | | JDBrocks wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: | | For 2012, Webb is OK as a backup. But his trade value should be explored after the season, assuming the Vikings can find a developmental QB in the 2012 pre-season, or 2013 free agency. |
Asante Samuel netted a 7th round pick. Who is trading more than that for Joe Webb? Which back up QBs are worse than Joe Webb right now? |
Totally different situations. Samuel was 31 year old CB with a huge cap number on a team with DRC and Scrabble. Joe Webb is a young QB who makes $500k.
In the case of Webb's potential trade value, you have to think that a team will pick him up, should he be released. The question then becomes, how many teams are interested, and does that drive up the price to a point where a team will give a late round pick to get him.
That said, why trade Webb? While I'm on the Ponder bandwagon, I'll readily admit that he's far from a sure thing. The only situation you can try to trade your back-up is the Schaub/Kolb trades, where you have your long-term answer at QB. Trading Webb would be a bad idea, unless there was another young QB that overtakes him on the roster. |
Reply to both posts...
Teams in need of a QB or backup would trade for Webb.
Only if Ponder develops as hoped by coaching staff and GM.
Webb has value as a young atheltic player, like Tebow, who was traded for ???? draft pick to NYJ.
To those who believe Newton is the new prototype QB;
Eli Manning won 2 SBs.
Rodgers.
Brees.
Brady.
P Manning.
etc.
all won SBs recently.
add a few more by reviewing the list of successful teams, not necessarily SB winners.
Which teams with athletic QBs won a SB? Got far in the playoffs?
So, why keep Webb if he has trade value which can be used to rebuild the WR crew or add a DT to replace KWill in 2013?
I'm not strongly advocating for Webb to be traded. But there are conditions which would suggest he should be traded, so it should be considered if the conditions are met.
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DJC71
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Purplexing wrote: | | Kellerman wrote: | | JDBrocks wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: | | For 2012, Webb is OK as a backup. But his trade value should be explored after the season, assuming the Vikings can find a developmental QB in the 2012 pre-season, or 2013 free agency. |
Asante Samuel netted a 7th round pick. Who is trading more than that for Joe Webb? Which back up QBs are worse than Joe Webb right now? |
Totally different situations. Samuel was 31 year old CB with a huge cap number on a team with DRC and Scrabble. Joe Webb is a young QB who makes $500k.
In the case of Webb's potential trade value, you have to think that a team will pick him up, should he be released. The question then becomes, how many teams are interested, and does that drive up the price to a point where a team will give a late round pick to get him.
That said, why trade Webb? While I'm on the Ponder bandwagon, I'll readily admit that he's far from a sure thing. The only situation you can try to trade your back-up is the Schaub/Kolb trades, where you have your long-term answer at QB. Trading Webb would be a bad idea, unless there was another young QB that overtakes him on the roster. |
Reply to both posts...
Teams in need of a QB or backup would trade for Webb.
Only if Ponder develops as hoped by coaching staff and GM.
Webb has value as a young atheltic player, like Tebow, who was traded for ???? draft pick to NYJ.
To those who believe Newton is the new prototype QB;
Eli Manning won 2 SBs.
Rodgers.
Brees.
Brady.
P Manning.
etc.
all won SBs recently.
add a few more by reviewing the list of successful teams, not necessarily SB winners.
Which teams with athletic QBs won a SB? Got far in the playoffs?
So, why keep Webb if he has trade value which can be used to rebuild the WR crew or add a DT to replace KWill in 2013?
I'm not strongly advocating for Webb to be traded. But there are conditions which would suggest he should be traded, so it should be considered if the conditions are met. |
Joe Webb isn't those guys, neither is Ponder, not even close. As a guy who doesn't see the Vikings anywhere near a SB anytime soon, I'll take the QB who has a ton of wow factor. |
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 5179
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JDBrocks wrote: |
Asante Samuel netted a 7th round pick. Who is trading more than that for Joe Webb? Which back up QBs are worse than Joe Webb right now? |
And...
| Kellerman wrote: |
In the case of Webb's potential trade value, you have to think that a team will pick him up, should he be released. The question then becomes, how many teams are interested, and does that drive up the price to a point where a team will give a late round pick to get him.
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With all due respect, some of you people leave me wondering if you actually watch the games.
Week 14 at Detroit.
In a little over one half of football Ponder manages to fumble twice and throw six passes into the hands of the LIons DBs. He's extremely lucky to have turned the ball over only four times before being pulled in the 3rd Quarter. Joe Webb steps in and what does he do in his three 2nd Half drives?- TD
- TD
- Drives the ball to the Detroit 1-yard line.
Comes within a blown facemask non-call of pulling off a miracle comeback on the road, in December, against a playoff team.
Oh, and he runs for 109 yards in 23 minutes of football.
Week 16 at Washington.
Adrian Peterson and Christian Ponder get hurt on consecutive plays in the 2nd Half. What does Joe Webb do when taking over with the Vikings trailing 13-10?- TD
- TD
- TD
- FG
- Punt on a drive where the Vikings were just trying to run the clock out.
Wins the game. Puts up 23 points in 26 minutes of football against one of the league's better defences. Possibly saves Leslie Frazier's job for the second straight year.
I honestly don't understand how anyone can watch these two games and want to trade Joe Webb for a late-round draft choice.
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SteelKing728
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 10874
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Purplexing wrote: |
I'm not strongly advocating for Webb to be traded. But there are conditions which would suggest he should be traded, so it should be considered if the conditions are met. |
This.
It'd be foolish to try to trade Webb right now with so many question marks.
We would really need a "storm" to pick up for this to happen. You know, Cincinatti/Oakland were in this situation. Carson Palmer was "retired", had very little value to the team. Cincy wants to trade him. All of a sudden, Jason Campbell of the raiders gets hurt, when Oakland is playing well, they are in the playoff race (considering at that point the entire division was awful), and with Oakland needing a QB, they pulled the trigger to land Carson. Cincinatti ended up with a 1st round pick.
Now, I don't expect the same kind of value for Webb, but if the conditions are met, where we can feel completely confident in trading him, and can get mid round value, I would certainly look into it. When you meet the conditions, the trade makes sense, even though the idea is pretty radical.
But right now, No. I'd rather keep both and see which QB develops better. If Webb really lights it up, then maybe Ponder should be trade bait.
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SteelKing728
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 10874
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't Denver trade Tebow...?
I think he helped his team win quite alot of games too, and he helped them win a playoff game...
I don't know how to make it more simple: I DO NOT support trading away Joe Webb. I like him. But if the conditions are met where we are happy going with Christian Ponder, Sage Rosenfels, and maybe another rookie, and a team is willing to give away a decent pick for Webb, I'd think about it. Its a scenario. I get the impression that people think we should just trade Webb away for nothing and be happy about it, which is completely wrong.
(and yes, if Joe Webbb was our QB for the entire year, and helped us get to the playoffs, I'd be estatic. I support Webb 100% right now, whether he's the backup, the starter, or trade bait)
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Last edited by SteelKing728 on Sat May 05, 2012 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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