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PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
^ You dont have to spend big money on underwhelming free agents to get better right away. That is the point. You can get better right away by drafting well, and its cheaper and more ideal over the long-term. Free agency has done very little for prolonged success, outside of a few rare examples like Drew Brees.


Straw man, no place did I say spend big money on underwhelming free agents.

You can get better through the draft, but why not use free agency? How did Winfield work out? How about Chris Carter? What about Steve Hutchinson? There are lots and lots of examples of good signings, just as there are of bad signings. If Spielman is the GM that people are saying he is, he should be able to find one FA to sign that is worth it to fill a hole on an 8 win team.

Also, this whole "build through the draft is the only right way to do things", do you have evidence of this? Not anectdotes of one team, but do you really know that signing one or two free agents to fill holes is a bad idea? Or is this one of those things we "know", like the earth is flat, or walks are a sign of a mediocre hitter in baseball?
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
^ You dont have to spend big money on underwhelming free agents to get better right away. That is the point. You can get better right away by drafting well, and its cheaper and more ideal over the long-term. Free agency has done very little for prolonged success, outside of a few rare examples like Drew Brees.


Straw man, no place did I say spend big money on underwhelming free agents


Bowe is an underwhelming WR who will be a free agent. Bowe has been inconsistent through his career and I am not sure if giving him big money is really worth it at this point. I guess I would rather spend that free agent money on players with upside, and while Bowe may be a positive upgrade for the offense for a few years, I just have doubt he would ever perform to the likely substantial contract he is bound to receive. Why have the Chiefs been so reluctant to sign him long-term?
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
PrplChilPill wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
^ You dont have to spend big money on underwhelming free agents to get better right away. That is the point. You can get better right away by drafting well, and its cheaper and more ideal over the long-term. Free agency has done very little for prolonged success, outside of a few rare examples like Drew Brees.


Straw man, no place did I say spend big money on underwhelming free agents


Bowe is an underwhelming WR who will be a free agent. Bowe has been inconsistent through his career and I am not sure if giving him big money is really worth it at this point. I guess I would rather spend that free agent money on players with upside, and while Bowe may be a positive upgrade for the offense for a few years, I just have doubt he would ever perform to the likely substantial contract he is bound to receive. Why have the Chiefs been so reluctant to sign him long-term?

Because they're the Chiefs and they subscribe to the Patriot way.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Patriot way usually involved not resigning high priced free agents who have likely peaked. Bowe is looking good this year though, so maybe he is just a late bloomer and can play well into his mid 30s. If that is the case, I would agree that it would be a worthwhile signing. We just dont know and your putting a lot of money towards a somewhat risky proposition. I wont lie, I like the prospect of Bowe for the short term, you just have to consider some of the long-term impacts of signing him.

I am not particularly pleased with this year's WR prospects, though that will probably change come February.
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[UMN]


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't buy calling a 28 year old who can easily play 5+ years a short term player. This is the NFL; in 5 years powerhouse teams can go to bottom-feeders with new coaches and new dynasties can emerge from nowhere. A short term player is a 34 year old who is only going to play 1-2 seasons.

How is a 28 year old on a 5 year contract any different from a 23 year old on a 5 year contract? Either way in 4-5 years you are re-evaluating that position.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[UMN] wrote:
I don't buy calling a 28 year old who can easily play 5+ years a short term player. This is the NFL; in 5 years powerhouse teams can go to bottom-feeders with new coaches and new dynasties can emerge from nowhere. A short term player is a 34 year old who is only going to play 1-2 seasons.

How is a 28 year old on a 5 year contract any different from a 23 year old on a 5 year contract? Either way in 4-5 years you are re-evaluating that position.


How many top 15 WRs are there who are 31+ years old and still playing at a good to great level. That is the point, you may not get Bowe of today 3 years from now and its going to cost a lot of money to find out. I am not really against the signing if it happened, I just dont think its the ideal way to improve the position over the long-haul.

Bowe will be 29 in Sept. 2013.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Rhodes seems like a good fit as a hybrid nickel CB/LB/SS type player at the next level. Question is, where do you take a player like that.


See this is what I've read on Rhodes, he can potentially play multiple positions for us, where he would be a 3 down player (outside CB, nickle CB, Strong S).

If Winfield does retire, the prospects we were hopeing for didnt fall to our draft position, and we cant get value in a trade down, Rhodes could be a fair addition potentially, sort of like a jack of all secondary positions maybe.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
PrplChilPill wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
I like Bowe, he is 28 though. Your really looking at a 3-4 year type player, though that isnt a bad thing, especially in the early stages of Ponder's development. Basically buys you time to find that future #1 WR. I would think it would be essential to atleast consider Bowe and see what his demands are, though you dont want to overspend for someone who doesnt have much of a future beyond 4 years.


If they win 8 or 9 games, tehn they should be buying 1-2 big time starters, and not worry about 4-5 years from now.


This makes no sense. You want to build for the long-term. Every team who intends to build a sustainable winner takes notice of 4-5 years from now.

I think signing Bowe would be a positive addition, but he is limited in his long-term impact.


If we did win 8-9 games, we certaintly should be pushing for free agents in a win now mode. I'm not saying we start trading away picks for players, but If you can get a great free agent signed for a 4 year deal on a "big" deal, I would do it once it fits a glaring need.

Start with releasing Carlson to free up additional money.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ I dont mind that strategy, i would rather just spend big money on a 25-26 year old free agent than a soon to be 29 year old free agent. Though Bowe would clearly fill a hole for a few seasons and there is a benefit to that.

I just like the idea of pairing an early draft pick at WR to grow with Ponder and the rest of the crew on offense. Building a young offensive corp would be huge for Ponder, though a WR like Bowe would be big for Ponder too.

I guess MN will have to take a look at some of the likely eligible WR prospects this year before deciding to make a move on the free agent market. I guess im just weary on spending big bucks on a WR after Berrian.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
^ I dont mind that strategy, i would rather just spend big money on a 25-26 year old free agent than a soon to be 29 year old free agent. Though Bowe would clearly fill a hole for a few seasons and there is a benefit to that.


How likely is it that we will have an opportunity to get a "great" WR free agent who is 25-26 years old. Its likely very low.

The 28-29 "great" WR free agent, is likely a bit higher praobability.

When your picking mid-pack in the draft, and the various different prospects that could be available at your pick (due to uncertainty), I'm more an advocate of doing what you can to improve through Free Agency 1st. Might prepare you to be able to go BPA more often perhaps
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
^ I dont mind that strategy, i would rather just spend big money on a 25-26 year old free agent than a soon to be 29 year old free agent. Though Bowe would clearly fill a hole for a few seasons and there is a benefit to that.


How likely is it that we will have an opportunity to get a "great" WR free agent who is 25-26 years old. Its likely very low.

The 28-29 "great" WR free agent, is likely a bit higher praobability.

When your picking mid-pack in the draft, and the various different prospects that could be available at your pick (due to uncertainty), I'm more an advocate of doing what you can to improve through Free Agency 1st. Might prepare you to be able to go BPA more often perhaps


Right, your not going to get a great 25-26 year old WR on the free agent market, but there may be a player at another position that could help the team, where you can open up the opportunity to focus on finding a young WR in the draft.

Im not thrilled with this year's WR draft class but there are a few guys who generally fit the mold of what MN needs. A rookie WR may not be an immediate impact player like a free agent could potentially be, but they dont necessarily have to be if Simpson steps up opposite of Harvin.
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Sloppy28


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
Rhodes seems like a good fit as a hybrid nickel CB/LB/SS type player at the next level. Question is, where do you take a player like that.


See this is what I've read on Rhodes, he can potentially play multiple positions for us, where he would be a 3 down player (outside CB, nickle CB, Strong S).

If Winfield does retire, the prospects we were hopeing for didnt fall to our draft position, and we cant get value in a trade down, Rhodes could be a fair addition potentially, sort of like a jack of all secondary positions maybe.

I posted a link earlier in the thread, but SS Kenny Vaccaro is a versatile guy who can play in different positions. He can line up over the slot receiver playing both man and zone coverage schemes.
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biggsohnasty


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you are saying VikesRule, signing Bowe is a short term fix at the WR position, but it is not saying that we couldnt address the WR position again the very next offseason.

Running out with Bowe and Simpson on the outside, Harvin in the slot and Rudy inline would make our offense potentially deadly. We have the speed guy to stretch defenses in Simpson, we have the dynamo do it all guy in Harvin, we have the 3rd down move the chains over the middle TE and the prototypical #1 WR in Bowe.

Signing Bowe would not mean we stop looking at future prospects at WR, it just means we look for future prospects at WR for an offseason. We build Ponder up so theoretically by the time we are turning over the WR spot, we have a veteren QB who can guide them through it and isnt still learning at much too. There should be some balance between the two spots.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would make our draft process easier (and offseason better), if we went into Free Agency and got 1 position of weakness shored up thru a signing (whether its fair value or slight overpayment). Preferably to someone young, but even 27-29 is acceptable. Age to me is usually overblown, I want better talent, even if they are 28-29 years of age.

The Simpson signing was great and would like him to be on this roster next season.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biggsohnasty wrote:
Am I the only one in the camp that wants us to throw huge money at Dwayne Bowe in the offseason


Yes. He's Randy Moss/Terrell Owens without similar talent. I want nothing to do with Bowe.
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