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REDandPEWTER's 2012 Draft Grades
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RoeKG


Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 4203
Location: PA
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbtb135 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
you're right and I thought about that after I said it, but sometimes people go overboard with their own evaluations. I respect everyone's own opinion on things, but also think that if you're gonna have a strong opinion or disagreement with someone else or with what our team did then you should have a legitimate reason for it and explain it. Not just "that's bad value"... "bad pick"... "Claiborne is better"


It does seem you see both sides of the coin, which is good. I just think it's a slight double-standard when people praise the pick, and it's fine, but when people question it, it has to be legitimized. In essence me saying "I'm not a fan of the pick" and someone else saying "Great pick!" is the same idea, both based mostly on personal opinion. Only no one is ever going to ask the guy who thinks it's a great pick why he thinks so. As long as it's respectful, I don't have a problem with differing opinions. I just don't feel, from where I'd take comparable to better safety prospects in the past, that Barron was a good value there. That's all.


I'm starting to think S is becoming a premium position because there are so few. Kind of like LTs.
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dbtb135


Joined: 22 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
I'm starting to think S is becoming a premium position because there are so few. Kind of like LTs.


I think S is a changing position. I don't know if I'd put it up there with LT yet. But I do think in this spread/passing era that S is a more noteworthy position. It's like TEs, and linked due to match-ups. These new TEs with the new rules and opened up offenses are becoming a huge threat. So if you have someone like Eric Smith for the Jets and he just KEEPS getting owned by Gronkowski every series, then you're going to want someone to combat him. I think in the coming years, we'll see safeties and TEs start to get over-drafted simply because the perceived team need is SO big now and the supply for the special ones is SO small. Everyone wants a Gronk/Graham/Gates/etc or a Reed/Berry/Polamalu/etc that teams are going to start reaching on them like they do on QBs, only to a significantly lesser degree.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbtb135 wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
I'm starting to think S is becoming a premium position because there are so few. Kind of like LTs.


I think S is a changing position. I don't know if I'd put it up there with LT yet. But I do think in this spread/passing era that S is a more noteworthy position. It's like TEs, and linked due to match-ups. These new TEs with the new rules and opened up offenses are becoming a huge threat. So if you have someone like Eric Smith for the Jets and he just KEEPS getting owned by Gronkowski every series, then you're going to want someone to combat him. I think in the coming years, we'll see safeties and TEs start to get over-drafted simply because the perceived team need is SO big now and the supply for the special ones is SO small. Everyone wants a Gronk/Graham/Gates/etc or a Reed/Berry/Polamalu/etc that teams are going to start reaching on them like they do on QBs, only to a significantly lesser degree.


I wouldn't say their as high as LTs either but obviously you get what I was going for.

I understand saying that the value wasn't great but like I posted earlier, I think if we don't grab him at 7 then we miss out on him completely, and then who else is there? Kuechly? A DL? This draft IMO had some great top end talent and quickly slid from really good to good in just the first 10 picks.
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dbtb135


Joined: 22 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
I wouldn't say their as high as LTs either but obviously you get what I was going for.

I understand saying that the value wasn't great but like I posted earlier, I think if we don't grab him at 7 then we miss out on him completely, and then who else is there? Kuechly? A DL? This draft IMO had some great top end talent and quickly slid from really good to good in just the first 10 picks.


That's my whole problem with this particular class. That's not a great place to be for us in the draft, and I feel, an unenviable spot for most any team.

And it's not like that was a minority view. A lot of people pre-draft were talking about how great it was that, at 5, we'd be assured of an elite prospect, and there was a drop-off after Claiborne. And the usual BPA over need talk and the obligatory Gaines over AP name-drop. And then when we trade down, the tune changes and there's no drop-off and Barron was a great pick because of how much we needed a safety and he was the best one in the class by far. Which he was. But couldn't that same logic have been applied to Gaines. And this is coming from someone who is an admitted supporter of the Gaines pick. I liked it, but it didn't work.

I don't know, it just seems like the perception to a lot of people just changed when we traded down. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it happened.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbtb135 wrote:
RoeKG wrote:
I wouldn't say their as high as LTs either but obviously you get what I was going for.

I understand saying that the value wasn't great but like I posted earlier, I think if we don't grab him at 7 then we miss out on him completely, and then who else is there? Kuechly? A DL? This draft IMO had some great top end talent and quickly slid from really good to good in just the first 10 picks.


That's my whole problem with this particular class. That's not a great place to be for us in the draft, and I feel, an unenviable spot for most any team.

And it's not like that was a minority view. A lot of people pre-draft were talking about how great it was that, at 5, we'd be assured of an elite prospect, and there was a drop-off after Claiborne. And the usual BPA over need talk and the obligatory Gaines over AP name-drop. And then when we trade down, the tune changes and there's no drop-off and Barron was a great pick because of how much we needed a safety and he was the best one in the class by far. Which he was. But couldn't that same logic have been applied to Gaines. And this is coming from someone who is an admitted supporter of the Gaines pick. I liked it, but it didn't work.

I don't know, it just seems like the perception to a lot of people just changed when we traded down. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it happened.


My perception changed a lot in the past few months. First I really wanted Richardson who would definitely be there. Then I thought Claiborne plus a 2nd round RB would be better. Then I wanted to trade back for Kuechly, then I wanted to trade up for TR.

The thing that happened through that whole process was Barron rising farther and farther. I thought he was a late 1st prospect but I didn't realize until right before the draft that teams in the 10-14 range were targeting him and analysts had him in the top 10 prospects.

If you told me months ago that Barron would be our 1st rounder at 7, I would have been mad. But watching the process go like it did, I'm fine with it. Really I think I'm happier with Barron than I would have been with Claiborne because our run D is currently pretty atrocious.
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tml_gogo


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if people's perceptions on Barron changed, just that they decided to accept it.

Personally, I still think the elite players of the draft were Luck, RG3, Richardson, Kalil, and Claiborne, and anyone taken after that, including Barron, is a tier below. That being said, the draft turned out alright, so while I may not prefer the pick of Barron, it set us up for the rest of the draft which went well, so can't really complain.
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Caaddy24


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbtb135 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
you're right and I thought about that after I said it, but sometimes people go overboard with their own evaluations. I respect everyone's own opinion on things, but also think that if you're gonna have a strong opinion or disagreement with someone else or with what our team did then you should have a legitimate reason for it and explain it. Not just "that's bad value"... "bad pick"... "Claiborne is better"


It does seem you see both sides of the coin, which is good. I just think it's a slight double-standard when people praise the pick, and it's fine, but when people question it, it has to be legitimized. In essence me saying "I'm not a fan of the pick" and someone else saying "Great pick!" is the same idea, both based mostly on personal opinion. Only no one is ever going to ask the guy who thinks it's a great pick why he thinks so. As long as it's respectful, I don't have a problem with differing opinions. I just don't feel, from where I'd take comparable to better safety prospects in the past, that Barron was a good value there. That's all.


yes yes exactly that is a good point

Ok well if you're gonna use the argument of the position as it not being good value then that's a little different. But if you're gonna say it wasn't good value because of the player he is meaning his skill, the way he is off field, etc., then you should point it out. But you're right it does sound kind of dumb to just say "Love the pick! But don't know why" or "hate it, but don't know why"...pretty much same thing... all I'm asking for is a little reasoning no matter the case Very Happy ... I'll shut up now
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dbtb135


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoeKG wrote:
My perception changed a lot in the past few months. First I really wanted Richardson who would definitely be there. Then I thought Claiborne plus a 2nd round RB would be better. Then I wanted to trade back for Kuechly, then I wanted to trade up for TR.

The thing that happened through that whole process was Barron rising farther and farther. I thought he was a late 1st prospect but I didn't realize until right before the draft that teams in the 10-14 range were targeting him and analysts had him in the top 10 prospects.

If you told me months ago that Barron would be our 1st rounder at 7, I would have been mad. But watching the process go like it did, I'm fine with it. Really I think I'm happier with Barron than I would have been with Claiborne because our run D is currently pretty atrocious.


I had him as a pick in the teens through the process, and that's where I think he belonged. It's not a huge reach IMO, but I have a hard time justifying myself to say that we moved down out of the top 5 for a package that was 90% Barron. If we would have gotten a higher pick in the deal, it would have made more sense. The Rams moved down twice and got a RIDICULOUS haul and a high(-ish) 2nd round pick. I know what Dom did after that with the pick, but I think he could have done that or more with a higher pick. And did we consider Barron at 5? I think the trades/picks later, when taken out of the equation, make the trade/pick of Barron look more like a questionable move. Not outright bad, but arguably worthy of a little criticism. That's just me, though.

tml_gogo wrote:
I don't know if people's perceptions on Barron changed, just that they decided to accept it.


I agree with that a lot. And again, it's not a bad thing. It's just something I think should be acknowledged. There have been a lot of picks that people weren't high on at the exact time that they rationalized and found to like and have done well. Davin Joseph being the main one that comes to mind. I've let it settle, and I'm still not a big fan of the pick. I have been wrong before *cough*Brian Brohm*cough*.

tml_gogo wrote:
Personally, I still think the elite players of the draft were Luck, RG3, Richardson, Kalil, and Claiborne, and anyone taken after that, including Barron, is a tier below. That being said, the draft turned out alright, so while I may not prefer the pick of Barron, it set us up for the rest of the draft which went well, so can't really complain.


I agree, the next two picks and the trades involving that pick acquired went a long way to soothe people's minds about our draft. So overall, the top 3 looks like a great group, but I think that's taken some of the sting that might have been there with just Barron alone at 7. I think it makes our class look a lot better. But I think Barron as a stand-alone pick is a little early.

Caaddy24 wrote:
yes yes exactly that is a good point

Ok well if you're gonna use the argument of the position as it not being good value then that's a little different. But if you're gonna say it wasn't good value because of the player he is meaning his skill, the way he is off field, etc., then you should point it out. But you're right it does sound kind of dumb to just say "Love the pick! But don't know why" or "hate it, but don't know why"...pretty much same thing... all I'm asking for is a little reasoning no matter the case Very Happy ... I'll shut up now


That's fair. Nobody has to shut up, it's actually a pretty good discussion of the draft. One of the better ones so far....
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, the Bucs just brought in Ron Brooks to be our DBs coach, who also coached Claiborne the past 3 years. We probably had more insight and information on him than any other team in the league to our advantage. And the fact that we passed on the opportunity to take him at 5 and traded with Jacksonville, kind of speaks volumes.

BTW, Barron wasn't a late riser on most teams around the leagues board. He was a late riser in the media's eyes and the fans as well. 3 months ago, if you asked me, I didn't want Barron. But as I actually did my homework on him, which I didn't at first, my mind completely changed on him and thought he'd be a better trade down pick than Keuchly. Barron is a well-rounded safety who can play in the box, cover, hit, and tackle. He just is around the football at all times and was the QB of the national championship defense.

Speaks volumes doesn't it?
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manilathrilla1


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to add that while we are not true GM's, I think it is amazing that some of you were able to justify a need for Martin and David and it actually came to fruition. I know the need was there for these two positions but people were high on these two specific players and Dominik thought the same.

AS for Barron @ #7. I think on draft day most of us agreed that the value just wasn't there. It's hard to find an elite safety and none of them seem to be drafted in the top 10. I think Barron's draft position has made his expectations so high that the only way to meet them are if he becomes a Polamalu or Reed.
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BuczNGator5


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caaddy24 wrote:
BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
Really how is anybody on here to say "it's bad value"... based off what may I ask? Your own personal "evaluation"?? Oh yeah right I forgot, most people on this forum are professional scouts and also could have done better in the draft then a real GM and front office Rolling Eyes give me a break
Yes, I believe he wasn't worth that high of a pick base on my personal evaluation of him. I agree that I'm no professional, but that's just my opinion.


Well not trying to sound like an [inappropriate/removed] or anything but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

So can you tell me which parts of him you don't like and why you don't think he's worth the 7th pick?
I love him as a prospect. I honestly think he will be one of our strong points on defense next year. The reason I don't like the value is because we missed out on Claiborne over a 4th round pick. Claiborne is going to be a playmaker at the next level. He will be near the top of the NFL in INTs every year. In hindsight the 4th round pick was huge, but at the time of the trade they had no idea how things were going to fall into place. Personally I would have stayed put grabbed Claiborne and tried to use other picks or future picks to move up if necessary. That's just my 2 cents. Trust me I hope I'm wrong, I hate the Cowboys!!!


so this is based on your evaluation of Claiborne not Mark Barron. You didn't even say anything about Claiborne's play, just that you think he'll be a top CB... So again, what about Mark Barron makes you think he isn't worth the 7th pick?
I just didn't like the move as a whole. I believe there were 4 elite players going into the draft (Luck, RG3, Richardson, and Claiborne). We were in position to grab one, at a position of great need. You don't always get the chance to add a superstar to your team. So did I like getting a 4th rounder and missing out on (who I think is) an elite player? No I didn't. Maybe you liked the trade at the time, but I for one was furious. I think that Barron was the best player available for us at the #7 pick, but I'd way rather have Claiborne.
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RoeKG


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
Really how is anybody on here to say "it's bad value"... based off what may I ask? Your own personal "evaluation"?? Oh yeah right I forgot, most people on this forum are professional scouts and also could have done better in the draft then a real GM and front office Rolling Eyes give me a break
Yes, I believe he wasn't worth that high of a pick base on my personal evaluation of him. I agree that I'm no professional, but that's just my opinion.


Well not trying to sound like an [inappropriate/removed] or anything but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

So can you tell me which parts of him you don't like and why you don't think he's worth the 7th pick?
I love him as a prospect. I honestly think he will be one of our strong points on defense next year. The reason I don't like the value is because we missed out on Claiborne over a 4th round pick. Claiborne is going to be a playmaker at the next level. He will be near the top of the NFL in INTs every year. In hindsight the 4th round pick was huge, but at the time of the trade they had no idea how things were going to fall into place. Personally I would have stayed put grabbed Claiborne and tried to use other picks or future picks to move up if necessary. That's just my 2 cents. Trust me I hope I'm wrong, I hate the Cowboys!!!


so this is based on your evaluation of Claiborne not Mark Barron. You didn't even say anything about Claiborne's play, just that you think he'll be a top CB... So again, what about Mark Barron makes you think he isn't worth the 7th pick?
I just didn't like the move as a whole. I believe there were 4 elite players going into the draft (Luck, RG3, Richardson, and Claiborne). We were in position to grab one, at a position of great need. You don't always get the chance to add a superstar to your team. So did I like getting a 4th rounder and missing out on (who I think is) an elite player? No I didn't. Maybe you liked the trade at the time, but I for one was furious. I think that Barron was the best player available for us at the #7 pick, but I'd way rather have Claiborne.


If you'd rather have Claiborne specifically because you see him as elite, I can respect that. But we needed Barron a heck of a lot more.
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He Hate Me


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was legitimately angry when we picked Barron at 7. I posted about it in the thread.

I also said I wasn't angry that Barron was our 1st round choice, but I was angry at the value.

"Only a 4th???"

"A safety in the top 10 that isn't Eric Berry or Sean Taylor?"

"Passed on an elite CB?"

The draft is a game within a game, and the goal is to get players you want at the lowest possible spot. It takes a deep understanding of your teams wants/needs and every other teams wants/needs. It's the ultimate chess battle.

When we picked Barron at 7, I thought we simply lost in the game within a game of trying to get a player at a spot that is perceived as fitting.

But my anger partially came from me thinking we'd have Claiborne or Richardson for the past 4 months. Drilling that thought into my head gave me that 'these two or bust' feeling, and when we didn't get them, and only got a 4th, I was angry at the 'value'.

But I think people need to understand that at some point, draft value is imaginary. It's an intangible guiding force that is relative to subjective opinions.

The common feeling was that Barron wasn't worth the 7th overall selection.

If we accept that, then we next need to ask, ok, so who was worth the 7th pick? Not just for the Bucs, but in general.

*looks at the list of available prospects at 7 overall*

There weren't a lot of guys in this draft that you would definitely say would be a top 10 pick in every draft class, the QBs and Richardson were the only for sure guys. After that, most of the guys would be prospects you could see going anywhere from 10-20, in an imaginary draft.

But the draft isn't imaginary, and SOMEONE has to be pick 8, 9, 10, 11.

Of all of the choices, Barron was the absolute best choice, which is why I say the value of it was imaginary. Sure, maybe in a deeper class, he would be someone you'd eye at pick 16, 17, or so. But you can't draft based on a class that doesn't exist, you can only draft based on what is actually in front of you.

My perception of the pick did change. But it wasn't because of Kiper or anyone. I wasn't even watching the draft, I was following it online. My perception changed because I thought about the pick on it's own merits, and stopped thinking about the ideal spot to pick a safety in the first round.

Barron was a top 8 prospect in the entire draft according to Mcshay, Kiper, and Mayock. He's a winner. He's a hard hitter. Great tackler. The type of guy you want as a last defense. And he is a leader.

He is pretty much everything this defense needs. Is that worth the 7th overall pick? Hell yes. We got exactly what we needed, and nothing else on the board would have given us that, (except maybe Luke...but people would have been mad about that too.)

And then lo and behold, we turn that 4th round pick into an every down running back and a starting OLB. The round of the pick we get in a trade doesn't matter in itself, its what you do with the pick that matters. And that "just a 4th' turned out to be worth a hell of a lot more than a 4th.

The game within a game worked out for us after all. I'm all smiles with this draft.
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Caaddy24


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
BuczNGator5 wrote:
Caaddy24 wrote:
Really how is anybody on here to say "it's bad value"... based off what may I ask? Your own personal "evaluation"?? Oh yeah right I forgot, most people on this forum are professional scouts and also could have done better in the draft then a real GM and front office Rolling Eyes give me a break
Yes, I believe he wasn't worth that high of a pick base on my personal evaluation of him. I agree that I'm no professional, but that's just my opinion.


Well not trying to sound like an [inappropriate/removed] or anything but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

So can you tell me which parts of him you don't like and why you don't think he's worth the 7th pick?
I love him as a prospect. I honestly think he will be one of our strong points on defense next year. The reason I don't like the value is because we missed out on Claiborne over a 4th round pick. Claiborne is going to be a playmaker at the next level. He will be near the top of the NFL in INTs every year. In hindsight the 4th round pick was huge, but at the time of the trade they had no idea how things were going to fall into place. Personally I would have stayed put grabbed Claiborne and tried to use other picks or future picks to move up if necessary. That's just my 2 cents. Trust me I hope I'm wrong, I hate the Cowboys!!!


so this is based on your evaluation of Claiborne not Mark Barron. You didn't even say anything about Claiborne's play, just that you think he'll be a top CB... So again, what about Mark Barron makes you think he isn't worth the 7th pick?
I just didn't like the move as a whole. I believe there were 4 elite players going into the draft (Luck, RG3, Richardson, and Claiborne). We were in position to grab one, at a position of great need. You don't always get the chance to add a superstar to your team. So did I like getting a 4th rounder and missing out on (who I think is) an elite player? No I didn't. Maybe you liked the trade at the time, but I for one was furious. I think that Barron was the best player available for us at the #7 pick, but I'd way rather have Claiborne.


so again, didn't answer the question Laughing... you'd be good in politics
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He Hate Me wrote:
I was legitimately angry when we picked Barron at 7. I posted about it in the thread.

I also said I wasn't angry that Barron was our 1st round choice, but I was angry at the value.

"Only a 4th???"

"A safety in the top 10 that isn't Eric Berry or Sean Taylor?"

"Passed on an elite CB?"

The draft is a game within a game, and the goal is to get players you want at the lowest possible spot. It takes a deep understanding of your teams wants/needs and every other teams wants/needs. It's the ultimate chess battle.

When we picked Barron at 7, I thought we simply lost in the game within a game of trying to get a player at a spot that is perceived as fitting.

But my anger partially came from me thinking we'd have Claiborne or Richardson for the past 4 months. Drilling that thought into my head gave me that 'these two or bust' feeling, and when we didn't get them, and only got a 4th, I was angry at the 'value'.

But I think people need to understand that at some point, draft value is imaginary. It's an intangible guiding force that is relative to subjective opinions.

The common feeling was that Barron wasn't worth the 7th overall selection.

If we accept that, then we next need to ask, ok, so who was worth the 7th pick? Not just for the Bucs, but in general.

*looks at the list of available prospects at 7 overall*

There weren't a lot of guys in this draft that you would definitely say would be a top 10 pick in every draft class, the QBs and Richardson were the only for sure guys. After that, most of the guys would be prospects you could see going anywhere from 10-20, in an imaginary draft.

But the draft isn't imaginary, and SOMEONE has to be pick 8, 9, 10, 11.

Of all of the choices, Barron was the absolute best choice, which is why I say the value of it was imaginary. Sure, maybe in a deeper class, he would be someone you'd eye at pick 16, 17, or so. But you can't draft based on a class that doesn't exist, you can only draft based on what is actually in front of you.

My perception of the pick did change. But it wasn't because of Kiper or anyone. I wasn't even watching the draft, I was following it online. My perception changed because I thought about the pick on it's own merits, and stopped thinking about the ideal spot to pick a safety in the first round.

Barron was a top 8 prospect in the entire draft according to Mcshay, Kiper, and Mayock. He's a winner. He's a hard hitter. Great tackler. The type of guy you want as a last defense. And he is a leader.

He is pretty much everything this defense needs. Is that worth the 7th overall pick? Hell yes. We got exactly what we needed, and nothing else on the board would have given us that, (except maybe Luke...but people would have been mad about that too.)

And then lo and behold, we turn that 4th round pick into an every down running back and a starting OLB. The round of the pick we get in a trade doesn't matter in itself, its what you do with the pick that matters. And that "just a 4th' turned out to be worth a hell of a lot more than a 4th.

The game within a game worked out for us after all. I'm all smiles with this draft.


Can't say it any better man. I will agree. I wasn't thrilled about "Only a 4th round" pick at first. Jacksonville was so desperate and hot after Blackmon, I believe we could have gotten more.

But that lowly 4th round pick got us 3 immediate starters and impact players. That is why Dominik is a genius and has had 3 great drafts in a row. Now I believe we have the coaching staff set for our young squad to continue our rebuilding process.
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