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Grade the Broncos' Draft
A
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
B
29%
 29%  [ 19 ]
C
31%
 31%  [ 20 ]
D
21%
 21%  [ 14 ]
F
15%
 15%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 64

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AntiSuperstar


Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoinGermany wrote:
I can say that I haven't taken plays off as long as my body allowed me not to.


Laughing Another words you have taken plays off.

BroncoinGermany wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but in football you have 6 seconds of game action per play, and about 30 seconds to rest in between snaps.


Not really, huddling, jogging to wherever the next line of scrimmage is, getting set, subbing in and out along the sidelines, shifting etc takes more energy than you might think. You don't get that much time in between snaps to rest. Especially when many times a player finishes a play a long way away from where he needs to be for the next play, meaning he has to sprint downfield just to be in position on time.

BroncoinGermany wrote:
If you are not able to give maximum effort on every snap or are inclined to take a play off, go and rest on the sidelines until your body has recovered again.


When you're a star player like Worthy it's not so simple as that. Teams need players to be out there a lot. Individual players don't generally dictate when they sub in and out. Beyond that, much of substitutions are dictated by situational football(like what alignment opposing team's are using for example), rotations, etc. Resting players is only part of what goes into substitutions.

Again, no one runs as fast as they possibly can or plays with 100% strength every play. No one even comes close. "Taking plays off" is a lazy criticism for people who are too lazy to give specific examples that could actually provide some kind of insight. All I know is Worthy impressed me from what I saw and chances are he'll be a better player than Wolfe.
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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoinGermany wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
Yes, I did.


You're reaction was pretty silly then because Worthy was only making the point that no one plays 100% every snap. And people who think anyone comes even close must have never played a sport in their life because you don't have to be an expert on conditioning to know everyone "takes plays off."


I have never played football in my life, yet as far as the sports I have played are concerned (tennis, soccer, race cycling), I can say that I haven't taken plays off as long as my body allowed me not to. That's why individual sports disciplines are a lot harder than they seem and team sports - contrary to non team sports - allow one to rest in the shadow of one's team mate's effort. Unless the game approaches the final minutes or a proper result is vastly out of reach, one doesn't take plays off. If one is properly conditioned, of course.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in football you have 6 seconds of game action per play, and about 30 seconds to rest in between snaps. If you are not able to give maximum effort on every snap or are inclined to take a play off, go and rest on the sidelines until your body has recovered again.


None of the 3 sports you mentioned have a definitive gap between short periods of action where rolling substitutions between plays. You have 46 active players every Sunday, two of them are backup QBs but after that there's no reason why the other 44 shouldn't all see the field at some point, whether it be base formations, situational work or special team play.

Put it this way, if I'm the defensive co-ordinator I'm putting the best 11 players on the field on a play by play basis. Now you can't deny that if we drafted Worthy instead of Wolfe he would be a starter, but would you prefer him to play that one down too many when he's absolutely gassed or put somebody like Bannan into the game to let him take a breather?
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
I can say that I haven't taken plays off as long as my body allowed me not to.


Laughing Another words you have taken plays off.

BroncoinGermany wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but in football you have 6 seconds of game action per play, and about 30 seconds to rest in between snaps.


Not really, huddling, jogging to wherever the next line of scrimmage is, getting set, subbing in and out along the sidelines, shifting etc takes more energy than you might think. You don't get that much time in between snaps to rest. Especially when many times a player finishes a play a long way away from where he needs to be for the next play, meaning he has to sprint downfield just to be in position on time.

BroncoinGermany wrote:
If you are not able to give maximum effort on every snap or are inclined to take a play off, go and rest on the sidelines until your body has recovered again.


When you're a star player like Worthy it's not so simple as that. Teams need players to be out there a lot. Individual players don't generally dictate when they sub in and out. Beyond that, much of substitutions are dictated by situational football(like what alignment opposing team's are using for example), rotations, etc. Resting players is only part of what goes into substitutions.

Again, no one runs as fast as they possibly can or plays with 100% strength every play. No one even comes close. "Taking plays off" is a lazy criticism for people who are too lazy to give specific examples that could actually provide some kind of insight. All I know is Worthy impressed me from what I saw and chances are he'll be a better player than Wolfe.


Of course I have taken plays off. Laughing There is just a difference between giving max effort on every play whilst slowly but steadily fatiguing, eventually having to take plays off; and not giving max effort so that plays are taken off because of a lack of effort. It has never been the latter for me, always the former.

You are right, I probably should have taken more time to consider posting this article, but since Worthy has been mentioned among the taking plays off because of a lack of effort group, and this article can be read that way, I might have prematurely jumped the gun. Or perhaps I haven't? Next season will show how Worthy and Wolfe go about their business and compare to each other.

Because again, that term "to take plays off" correlates to the term "to disappear for streches of a game". There is a reason that these terms are thrown around while characterizing a player's game.
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul-mac wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
Yes, I did.


You're reaction was pretty silly then because Worthy was only making the point that no one plays 100% every snap. And people who think anyone comes even close must have never played a sport in their life because you don't have to be an expert on conditioning to know everyone "takes plays off."


I have never played football in my life, yet as far as the sports I have played are concerned (tennis, soccer, race cycling), I can say that I haven't taken plays off as long as my body allowed me not to. That's why individual sports disciplines are a lot harder than they seem and team sports - contrary to non team sports - allow one to rest in the shadow of one's team mate's effort. Unless the game approaches the final minutes or a proper result is vastly out of reach, one doesn't take plays off. If one is properly conditioned, of course.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in football you have 6 seconds of game action per play, and about 30 seconds to rest in between snaps. If you are not able to give maximum effort on every snap or are inclined to take a play off, go and rest on the sidelines until your body has recovered again.


None of the 3 sports you mentioned have a definitive gap between short periods of action where rolling substitutions between plays. You have 46 active players every Sunday, two of them are backup QBs but after that there's no reason why the other 44 shouldn't all see the field at some point, whether it be base formations, situational work or special team play.

Put it this way, if I'm the defensive co-ordinator I'm putting the best 11 players on the field on a play by play basis. Now you can't deny that if we drafted Worthy instead of Wolfe he would be a starter, but would you prefer him to play that one down too many when he's absolutely gassed or put somebody like Bannan into the game to let him take a breather?


I am sorry, but I don't quite get what you are saying. Are you responding to me or Anti?
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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoinGermany wrote:
paul-mac wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
Yes, I did.


You're reaction was pretty silly then because Worthy was only making the point that no one plays 100% every snap. And people who think anyone comes even close must have never played a sport in their life because you don't have to be an expert on conditioning to know everyone "takes plays off."


I have never played football in my life, yet as far as the sports I have played are concerned (tennis, soccer, race cycling), I can say that I haven't taken plays off as long as my body allowed me not to. That's why individual sports disciplines are a lot harder than they seem and team sports - contrary to non team sports - allow one to rest in the shadow of one's team mate's effort. Unless the game approaches the final minutes or a proper result is vastly out of reach, one doesn't take plays off. If one is properly conditioned, of course.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in football you have 6 seconds of game action per play, and about 30 seconds to rest in between snaps. If you are not able to give maximum effort on every snap or are inclined to take a play off, go and rest on the sidelines until your body has recovered again.


None of the 3 sports you mentioned have a definitive gap between short periods of action where rolling substitutions between plays. You have 46 active players every Sunday, two of them are backup QBs but after that there's no reason why the other 44 shouldn't all see the field at some point, whether it be base formations, situational work or special team play.

Put it this way, if I'm the defensive co-ordinator I'm putting the best 11 players on the field on a play by play basis. Now you can't deny that if we drafted Worthy instead of Wolfe he would be a starter, but would you prefer him to play that one down too many when he's absolutely gassed or put somebody like Bannan into the game to let him take a breather?


I am sorry, but I don't quite get what you are saying. Are you responding to me or Anti?



You.
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul-mac wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
paul-mac wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
BroncoinGermany wrote:
Yes, I did.


You're reaction was pretty silly then because Worthy was only making the point that no one plays 100% every snap. And people who think anyone comes even close must have never played a sport in their life because you don't have to be an expert on conditioning to know everyone "takes plays off."


I have never played football in my life, yet as far as the sports I have played are concerned (tennis, soccer, race cycling), I can say that I haven't taken plays off as long as my body allowed me not to. That's why individual sports disciplines are a lot harder than they seem and team sports - contrary to non team sports - allow one to rest in the shadow of one's team mate's effort. Unless the game approaches the final minutes or a proper result is vastly out of reach, one doesn't take plays off. If one is properly conditioned, of course.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in football you have 6 seconds of game action per play, and about 30 seconds to rest in between snaps. If you are not able to give maximum effort on every snap or are inclined to take a play off, go and rest on the sidelines until your body has recovered again.


None of the 3 sports you mentioned have a definitive gap between short periods of action where rolling substitutions between plays. You have 46 active players every Sunday, two of them are backup QBs but after that there's no reason why the other 44 shouldn't all see the field at some point, whether it be base formations, situational work or special team play.

Put it this way, if I'm the defensive co-ordinator I'm putting the best 11 players on the field on a play by play basis. Now you can't deny that if we drafted Worthy instead of Wolfe he would be a starter, but would you prefer him to play that one down too many when he's absolutely gassed or put somebody like Bannan into the game to let him take a breather?


I am sorry, but I don't quite get what you are saying. Are you responding to me or Anti?



You.


Okay. I still don't grasp the gist of it.

What does the bolded part mean? More so, what does it have to do with our discussion?

In terms of my rotational preferences, I would absolutely sub out Wolfe before he ever reaches the point of no return, hence keeping him from playing one snap too many and hitting the wall. But I still would take that mindset which comes with this type of all out effort persona over anything less any day.

Am I still on track of our debate here? I just finished a round of the 4th type of sport I do, jogging. Perhaps my reading comprehension has started to go down the drain..? Laughing
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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tennis is one-on-one, soccer and cycling are continuous. American football is literally one play, then an opportunity to make substitutions, another play, repeat.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bzane wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
I'm giving the draft a "F" grade.

EXF traded down and got bad value for doing so.
-Grade the trades: F

Then they drafted a player at a position of need in DT Derek Wolfe, but the pick was an major reach as most hand Wolfe as a 3rd or 4th round pick. Moreover, he's from a mid-major program who never faced strong competition.
Grade the Pick: C-

Denver's next pick saw the team take a developmental QB prospect in ASU's Brock Osweiler. The pick represented a reach for a raw, 1-year starter who will likely not see the field for at least 3 years and plays a position at which Denver has little if any need. A 2nd round pick spent on a raw, developmental player at a position of little need? Awful pick.
Grade the Pick: F

The Broncos last pick of the first three rounds was a RB. Denver has a legitimate need for a RB with soft, oft-injured Knowshon Moreno, an aging Willis McGahee and a bunch of little-known role-players filling the position. With better, more accomplished, more pro-ready RBs on the board, the Broncos reach for SDSU's Ronnie Hilliman. Hillman is under-sized, from a non-marquee program, had ball security issues, is a one-dimensional scat back and is still raw as a receiver. At best, Hillman will be an occasional player who can only be on the field in certain situations and only do a few select things during those situations.
Grade the Pick: D


Wow, right or wrong, that's a brave and honest assessment.

You go on most of these Fan Forums, and most of the fans are insisting that their team's draft was actually a pretty good one, even if they reached and took players expected to go three rounds later and passed up higher-rated players just to take some mystery man that the GM was in love with.

There's an air of desperate hopefulness about such posts that suggests disappointed fans deluding themselves that their team's horrific draft will turn out okay, after all.

I re-graded the draft after all was said and done. I still give the trade a "F" for both value and for trading with a conference rival, but I gave a better grade to Hillman after watching some footage of him play and looking at needs and value. Just for the record. Wink

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
#67
Ronnie Hillman, RB, San Diego St.*- Upon further review I like this pick better than I did initially. Unlike Osweiler, Hillman is someone fills the need for a play-maker at a position sorely lacking play-makers. It also, thankfully, spells the end for Knowshon Moreno. Like Wolfe, Hillman was productive in college but, also like Wolfe, he was productive against inferior competition and the adaptation to the NFL will be challenging. Hillman is a niche player - a scat back in this case - but has big-play potential and should help us right away.
GRADE B+

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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You gave it an F just because we traded with the Cleveland Browns as opposed to, say, Tampa or Minnesota?
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul-mac wrote:
You gave it an F just because we traded with the Cleveland Browns as opposed to, say, Tampa or Minnesota?

To move from 25 to 31 we traded with New England, you don't go helping teams who you will have to go through to get to a Super Bowl. And certainly don't do it for as poor of value as we got. Belichick took Elway to the cleaners on that one and then drafted a future Pro Bowler in Dont'a Hightower.

That's why I gave the trade a "F" grade.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbronx42 wrote:
Mark it down that i am literally the biggest Brock Osweiler when nobody seems to like him... I am like Donut and Chad Jackson. I have the utmost confidence that he will turn into an outstanding QB. I completely understand why people are upset where we took him, considering the other needs we had. But i have absolutely no problem with this selection and i bet people wont be mad about it in a few years.

Again, this is just my opinion. But Osweiler's game didn't translate to the Arizona State offense at all. It was a bubble screen, dump pass offense that often struggled with a lack of creativity. Brock has a huge arm, and when asked to sling it he could make any single throw on the field...

If we have the luxury of having Peyton for 3 healthy years then he will learn a ton in that amount of time. Watching Manning in practice, the meeting rooms, and games will only help Brock... By the way in 3 years he will only be 24. The same age Kirk Cousins will be in August. Or Nick Foles will be in December.

Love this pick. Riding with Osweiler all the way! Cool


And more 'Manning will mentor this kid to greatness' nonsense. Osweiler supporters LOVE to hang their hats on that and ignore the obvious fact Manning never mentored anyone to anything, ever.
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PGeorge2


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
dbronx42 wrote:
Mark it down that i am literally the biggest Brock Osweiler when nobody seems to like him... I am like Donut and Chad Jackson. I have the utmost confidence that he will turn into an outstanding QB. I completely understand why people are upset where we took him, considering the other needs we had. But i have absolutely no problem with this selection and i bet people wont be mad about it in a few years.

Again, this is just my opinion. But Osweiler's game didn't translate to the Arizona State offense at all. It was a bubble screen, dump pass offense that often struggled with a lack of creativity. Brock has a huge arm, and when asked to sling it he could make any single throw on the field...

If we have the luxury of having Peyton for 3 healthy years then he will learn a ton in that amount of time. Watching Manning in practice, the meeting rooms, and games will only help Brock... By the way in 3 years he will only be 24. The same age Kirk Cousins will be in August. Or Nick Foles will be in December.

Love this pick. Riding with Osweiler all the way! Cool


And more 'Manning will mentor this kid to greatness' nonsense. Osweiler supporters LOVE to hang their hats on that and ignore the obvious fact Manning never mentored anyone to anything, ever.


He doesn't have to. There's a difference between being able to watch someone and pick up on their tendencies and having to be carried around like a little kid to learn something. Surely Osweiler is smart enough to watch everything Peyton does and learn from that.

Of course Peyton isn't going to take 5 minutes between every snap in practice to tell him why he did what he did. Osweiler should be able to pick up on Mannings tendencies on the field, how he works out, what he does in meetings, and even what play is called versus what Manning audibles to and what he saw in the defense to make the audible. There are hundreds of little things Osweiler can do by watching Manning.

Being "mentored" is the biggest over reation ever. If you have half a brain in your head you ought to be able to look at someone who is great at what they do and try to immulate it. It is no different than sales, construction or anything else. People are visual learners; they learn by seeing it and immulating it. The difference between Osweiler and Painter is Osweiler has the tools to be good. Painter could have a Ryan Fitzpatrick IQ and a Peyton Manning understanding of the game and he would stll suck because he has the natural talent of Curtis Painter.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PGeorge2 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
dbronx42 wrote:
Mark it down that i am literally the biggest Brock Osweiler when nobody seems to like him... I am like Donut and Chad Jackson. I have the utmost confidence that he will turn into an outstanding QB. I completely understand why people are upset where we took him, considering the other needs we had. But i have absolutely no problem with this selection and i bet people wont be mad about it in a few years.

Again, this is just my opinion. But Osweiler's game didn't translate to the Arizona State offense at all. It was a bubble screen, dump pass offense that often struggled with a lack of creativity. Brock has a huge arm, and when asked to sling it he could make any single throw on the field...

If we have the luxury of having Peyton for 3 healthy years then he will learn a ton in that amount of time. Watching Manning in practice, the meeting rooms, and games will only help Brock... By the way in 3 years he will only be 24. The same age Kirk Cousins will be in August. Or Nick Foles will be in December.

Love this pick. Riding with Osweiler all the way! Cool


And more 'Manning will mentor this kid to greatness' nonsense. Osweiler supporters LOVE to hang their hats on that and ignore the obvious fact Manning never mentored anyone to anything, ever.


He doesn't have to. There's a difference between being able to watch someone and pick up on their tendencies and having to be carried around like a little kid to learn something. Surely Osweiler is smart enough to watch everything Peyton does and learn from that.

Of course Peyton isn't going to take 5 minutes between every snap in practice to tell him why he did what he did. Osweiler should be able to pick up on Mannings tendencies on the field, how he works out, what he does in meetings, and even what play is called versus what Manning audibles to and what he saw in the defense to make the audible. There are hundreds of little things Osweiler can do by watching Manning.

Being "mentored" is the biggest over reation ever. If you have half a brain in your head you ought to be able to look at someone who is great at what they do and try to immulate it. It is no different than sales, construction or anything else. People are visual learners; they learn by seeing it and immulating it. The difference between Osweiler and Painter is Osweiler has the tools to be good. Painter could have a Ryan Fitzpatrick IQ and a Peyton Manning understanding of the game and he would stll suck because he has the natural talent of Curtis Painter.


Well said!
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Joe_is_the_best


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Palooka, you're ignoring the obvious fact that Manning's backups were not talented players and were drafted late in the draft. Both Sorgi & Painter were drafted in the 6th round. Neither of them were overly talented and were projected as practice squad players.

Osweiler has all the physical tools you look for in a QB. The only reason he wasn't taken in the first round is because he lacks experience. He was at lowest a third round pick on many sites, some even saying he was a borderline first. I don't know why people are saying that he's a reach or that he's a lousy player. It really makes no sense to me.

You can argue that we have more needs, that we need to draft for the now, that we could have gotten a QB later, etc. Regardless of that, the fact is that Osweiler has an extremely high ceiling and quite possibly the strongest arm in the draft.

I didn't like the pick either, but I see no reason to berate Elway and his staff for it. For once, there will be a talented QB behind Manning. For all the people criticizing the Colts for never getting a capable backup, I find it ironic to heavily criticize EXF for planning for the future.
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
dbronx42 wrote:
Mark it down that i am literally the biggest Brock Osweiler when nobody seems to like him... I am like Donut and Chad Jackson. I have the utmost confidence that he will turn into an outstanding QB. I completely understand why people are upset where we took him, considering the other needs we had. But i have absolutely no problem with this selection and i bet people wont be mad about it in a few years.

Again, this is just my opinion. But Osweiler's game didn't translate to the Arizona State offense at all. It was a bubble screen, dump pass offense that often struggled with a lack of creativity. Brock has a huge arm, and when asked to sling it he could make any single throw on the field...

If we have the luxury of having Peyton for 3 healthy years then he will learn a ton in that amount of time. Watching Manning in practice, the meeting rooms, and games will only help Brock... By the way in 3 years he will only be 24. The same age Kirk Cousins will be in August. Or Nick Foles will be in December.

Love this pick. Riding with Osweiler all the way! Cool


And more 'Manning will mentor this kid to greatness' nonsense. Osweiler supporters LOVE to hang their hats on that and ignore the obvious fact Manning never mentored anyone to anything, ever.


And i LOVE the fact that you don't even mention the Colts never even had a talented prospect behind Manning... EVER ... Your ignorance is beyond hysterical. Laughing

Here is my original post -

Quote:
Watching Manning in practice, the meeting rooms, and games will only help Brock...


Where in my post did i say Manning would be mentoring Osweiler...?! Oh that's right i didn't. But you LOVE to twist peoples words as always. I said WATCHING Peyton will only help Brock. But that not must be okay. I forgot Osweiler is blindfolded anytime Peyton is in the complex or on a football field.

Just shut up. You look stupid.
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