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| Who is better in 2012? |
| Seattle |
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57% |
[ 32 ] |
| Arizona |
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42% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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TD_Tommie
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 4662
Location: Nebraska
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 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| SaveourSonics wrote: | Your arguments are pretty bad today.
| Quote: | | Players get better with time in the same system. I highly doubt Kolb/Skelton will fare worse than whoever's Seattle's QB, simply because of this point. [barring Manning] |
So it's just safe to assume that the magic fairy is going to come along and make Kolb better?  I'm basing my prediction off of what I know. I know Kolb is mediocre. I know we're going to improve at the QB position. |
You keep saying I assume things when you are assuming half of your points here. You're assuming you're going to have a different starter at Quarterback next year. If you draft a rookie QB, like Tannehill, that won't be the case. If you're talking about Matt Flynn being your starter, then that whole point is basically what you're assuming, as you've only seen one game and change of him. (which was in Green Bay's system, not Bevell's WCO). Stop being a hypocrite and stop assuming things yourself.
| Quote: | | Why would I care if you assume that Kolb is going to progress, when several of his issues weren't attributed to scheme? |
Again, you're being terribly two faced. If you are going to call Kolb out because he He was abysmal under pressure and still sits behind the same garbage offensive line that he did last year. Is he suddenly going to get better pocket presence?
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| Quote: | | You bash Kolb but will praise a pick up of Flynn? There is irony in that, you know. |
Two entirely separate cases, I figured you'd understand that. Kolb has proven his mediocrity with his new team in a starting role. |
He's had less than a full season. No one should be throwing him under the bus yet.
| Quote: | | Flynn is still an unknown commodity that has shown nothing but good play. |
So you're admitting you're assuming Flynn would be a better starter than Kolb?
| Quote: | | Obviously the next segment is matter of opinion, but Flynn impressed me a whole hell of a lot more than Kolb ever did with the Eagles. |
Again, you saw a single game and change from Flynn. You can't base an opinion off that otherwise Freddie Mitchell would be the best receiver ever.
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| Quote: | | Best safety tandem in the league? My my, aren't we drinking the kool-aid? The fact of the matter is, is that no, chances are more than just slim that a couple of rookie standouts at cornerback will regress. It's not because of scheme change (which, if you believe that, destroys your credibility on the QB argument above) or pass rush, they happen all the time in all kind of situations. Mccourty fell this year, the Patriots didn't change their base schemes. Amari Spievey regressed early in year two of his cb campaign that they had to move him to safety, the Lions didn't change any of their schemes. Leodis Mckelvin regressed after his rookie year, Buffalo made no major changes. Mike Jenkins regressed as well, need I go on? |
So who do you have as the best safety tandem? Can't wait to hear. |
You'd honestly take Kam and Thomas over Troy and Clark?
| Quote: | | I didn't say it was limited to scheme change, I also said pass rush and apart of scheme change I should mention role. Unless I'm mistaken all of those teams mentioned had their sack numbers dip the following seasons from the rookies good play. And I'm pretty sure every player was promoted from #2 to #1 after their great rookie season. I know most corners play one side of the field regardless, but that's not always the case. In terms of the Seahawks, you have 2 corners that have already shown they can handle the promotion (Sherman was promoted mid-season) so an increased role or responsibility shouldn't be an issue. Once again, you're assuming that the secondary is going to get worse, while I'm basing it off of what I know. I know that this young secondary played great last year, so why should I assume otherwise? |
Because history has proven time and time again that the cb position is the least consistent in the nfl on a year to year basis. You can be high on those two all you want, I would be too if I was a Seahawk fan. Just be cautious because whether you'd like to believe it or not, chances are they might regress, based off of history.
And actually none of the cornerbacks I listed, besides Jenkins, received promotions. Mccourtey was always a starter for the Patriots, Mckelvin didn't move up the charts, nor did Speivey. So that whole rant you went off means nothing.
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| Quote: | | The point is PP is far better than Leon and the rest of Seattle's special teams all by himself. |
Jon Ryan was a top 3 punter last year and Leon is still among the most dangerous return men in the league. If your point is about field position, you don't really have a point. |
This is just showing your homerism. You think a punter is enough to make up the gap between Leon and PP? Leon's a great returner, but PP is several leagues above him as a returner. |
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imani
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 21366
Location: Harlem, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | SaveourSonics wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | I think you should have added an "About the same" option. Since the discussion that spurred this poll really centered on StChamp saying they were pretty even. |
That's fair. I would say they are roughly the same (I mean they did finish with one more win, 1-1 against each other, both experienced similar roller coaster seasons, and are only separated by 1 spot in the draft).
I guess my post is more of a "if I had to pick one" ultimatum. Kinda like what you did with Iggles.  |
Yeah, no doubt. Just saying if this was meant to adress the original discussion (where the challenge of "put it to a poll" was issued) then it's missing the mark IMO. StChamp was arguing they both looked pretty much the same now and going forward. So that should be an option.
Personally, I cant give my opinion. Since I dont know the math it would be impossible for me to venture a guess.
Kidding. Seahawks all the way. Because you are a Blazers fan. Right? |
i'm a huge blazers fan, did you catch elliot williams last night? KId has a bright future
But i digress. I think seattle's defense is much better than arizona's but i would agree the offense is pretty much equal. That's where i stand
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SaveourSonics
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 45445
Location: Sleepless in Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Flaccomania wrote: | | Personally, I think Seattle wins the NFC West next season. So therefore, I'll go with Seattle. |
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 31636
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'll say wash. Neither team has a QB, both have talented defenses and both have talent in certain spots on offense.
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JaguarCrazy2832
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 73481
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think its Seattle, their defense is alot better and their offense is just slightly worse
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| JaguarCrazy2832 wrote: | | I think its Seattle, their defense is alot better and their offense is just slightly worse |
Comedy? Sarcasm?
We produce right in line statistically with Seattle defensively in multiple categories and outproduce in multiple others(And likewise) against all but 2 common opponents. Talent wise we're every bit as good and luckily for us, all of our talent is here to stay.
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | SaveourSonics wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | I think you should have added an "About the same" option. Since the discussion that spurred this poll really centered on StChamp saying they were pretty even. |
That's fair. I would say they are roughly the same (I mean they did finish with one more win, 1-1 against each other, both experienced similar roller coaster seasons, and are only separated by 1 spot in the draft).
I guess my post is more of a "if I had to pick one" ultimatum. Kinda like what you did with Iggles. |
Yeah, no doubt. Just saying if this was meant to adress the original discussion (where the challenge of "put it to a poll" was issued) then it's missing the mark IMO. StChamp was arguing they both looked pretty much the same now and going forward. So that should be an option. |
That is exactly what stchamp was doing. Shouldn't be surprised that he couldn't pick that up.
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x0x
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 13913
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'll probably have a better head to do this tomorrow but frankly I think on the offensive side this really isn't a debate.
Seattle's best young hopeful is Doug Baldwin who could just as easily bust if he's asked to be the #1 guy.
The RB core is dying and I say that because Lynch although set to be 26 for this season, has a very bruising style that's hard to maintain and overall he may suffer like Steven Jackson due to a questionable line and let's be honest he's no Steven Jackson.
The QB area is a big gaping hole. Arizona is not that well off either, frankly it's a draw in that department.
I like Carroll but I'd go with Whiz on the coaching front.
So really the way I see it on offense is as so:
QB-Draw
RB-Arizona
WR-Arizona
OL-Draw
Coach/OC-Arizona
Seattle isn't clear better than the Cardinals in any offensive category really.
Now when it comes to defense, the Seahawks take this, but some of the games lead to overall skewed stats. The Cardinals are a mediocre defense while the Seahawks are a borderline top 10 defense.
Cardinals lead in special teams completely.
The tipping point here has to be Larry Fitzgerald, he's a bigger star than anything on Seattle but he's going to be 29 and if the team doesn't start getting better he may become unhappy.
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khodder
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 48164
Location: New New York
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Fence sitting for the win...
But seriously I think the two teams are in similar positions. Both have defenses that have performed very well in the past season, albeit against opponents who are not really offensive powerhouses.
Arizona over the last 9 weeks of the season had one of the best defenses in the NFL statistically (Again not the strongest opponents);
The led the NFL in 3rd down defense and red-zone defense, they were 2nd in the league in YPA allowed int he passing game, they finished 3rd in sacks and TD's allowed.
| Quote: | | Over the final nine games, 64 percent of the drives by Cards’ opponents (76 of 118) were five plays or less and 59 percent (70) covered 25 yards or less. Of the 12 touchdowns the Cards allowed, four came on drives that began on the Cards’ side of the 50-yard line. |
http://blog.azcardinals.com/2012/01/26/improved-defense-by-the-numbers/
That elevation in performance also happened to coincide with about the point most experts and commtators prior to the season speculated that teams would begin to show their true identities after the lockout. It is also no surprise that behind that defense the Cardinals went 7-2 over that 9 game stretch.
Both have huge holes at Quarterback (Though at this stage I think Arizona has better players on the roster, however none of the QB's on either roster can be considered "above average") both have good power backs. Arizona has the biggest weapon of the bunch in Larry Fitzgerald, but lacks a quality secondary target (Roberts/Housler/Depth needs to step up)
The kicker is this. All 8 of Arizona's wins in 2011 were by 7 or less points, but so were 6 of their 8 losses. This 2011 team was a far cry from the 2010 team, a much better unit and one that really excelled defensively down the stretch.
Arizona won three games by 7 or less in which they scored a Punt Return Touchdown. They won all four of their games that went to Overtime.
However they had two missed FG's in a loss @ Seattle. Had the Victor Cruz "fumble" vs the Giants, a missed FG in a 1 point loss to the Redskins.
Thier luck hit both sides of the ledger in 2011. If they can get a more consistent offense and ride a defense that really stood out down the stretch of 2011 they could be a team that can match the performances of the 2011 49ers in 2012. In Seattle I don't see that amount of upside, but I can see a bit more of a solid base.
I think Arizona is more likely to win the West because of that upside, but they are also the more likely of the two to finish the season 6-10 or 5-11.
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imani
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 21366
Location: Harlem, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| stchamp98 wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | SaveourSonics wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | I think you should have added an "About the same" option. Since the discussion that spurred this poll really centered on StChamp saying they were pretty even. |
That's fair. I would say they are roughly the same (I mean they did finish with one more win, 1-1 against each other, both experienced similar roller coaster seasons, and are only separated by 1 spot in the draft).
I guess my post is more of a "if I had to pick one" ultimatum. Kinda like what you did with Iggles. |
Yeah, no doubt. Just saying if this was meant to adress the original discussion (where the challenge of "put it to a poll" was issued) then it's missing the mark IMO. StChamp was arguing they both looked pretty much the same now and going forward. So that should be an option. |
That is exactly what stchamp was doing. Shouldn't be surprised that he couldn't pick that up. |
I don't think it's equal, that just sounds like wishful thinking on the part of cards fans to me.
But hey, if i think a statistically better and younger defense that faced a tougher schedule is......better, i guess i'm just unintelligent. Or a homer.
Or i'm just judging two defenses as i see them.
I'm not just going to agree or cosign with someone else just because they say their team is equal to the one i root for. Your gonna have to back that up. Just because we split a season series and you had a better record by one game.....doesn automatically make you equal or better
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| Cypher wrote: | | Erryday i'm Russelin'. |
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| imani wrote: | | stchamp98 wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | SaveourSonics wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | I think you should have added an "About the same" option. Since the discussion that spurred this poll really centered on StChamp saying they were pretty even. |
That's fair. I would say they are roughly the same (I mean they did finish with one more win, 1-1 against each other, both experienced similar roller coaster seasons, and are only separated by 1 spot in the draft).
I guess my post is more of a "if I had to pick one" ultimatum. Kinda like what you did with Iggles. |
Yeah, no doubt. Just saying if this was meant to adress the original discussion (where the challenge of "put it to a poll" was issued) then it's missing the mark IMO. StChamp was arguing they both looked pretty much the same now and going forward. So that should be an option. |
That is exactly what stchamp was doing. Shouldn't be surprised that he couldn't pick that up. |
I don't think it's equal, that just sounds like wishful thinking on the part of cards fans to me.
But hey, if i think a statistically better and younger defense that faced a tougher schedule is......better, i guess i'm just unintelligent. Or a homer.
Or i'm just judging two defenses as i see them.
I'm not just going to agree or cosign with someone else just because they say their team is equal to the one i root for. Your gonna have to back that up. Just because we split a season series and you had a better record by one game.....doesn automatically make you equal or better |
Wishful thinking because I'm willing to give an accurate, non-homeristic view of where my favorite team stands? Sorry, if you're looking for random acts of bias, you're on your own.
Um, what? Having a near identical record(Albeit better) overall all with a near identical record heads up(With both games decided by 3 points) very much does make us equal....by pure definition. The field of play is what seperates good teams from bad teams. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing here? Why do we watch on Sundays?
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 31636
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| stchamp98 wrote: | Wishful thinking because I'm willing to give an accurate, non-homeristic view of where my favorite team stands? Sorry, if you're looking for random acts of bias, you're on your own.
Um, what? Having a near identical record(Albeit better) overall all with a near identical record heads up(With both games decided by 3 points) very much does make us equal....by pure definition. The field of play is what seperates good teams from bad teams. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing here? Why do we watch on Sundays? |
To avoid our families, duh.
Honestly, at this point, it is a complete wash. Both teams have a full off-season to go through so we'll see what happens. I think Seattle fans are getting a little big in their britches for a team that lacks a QB.
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SaveourSonics
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 45445
Location: Sleepless in Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| x0x wrote: | | I'll probably have a better head to do this tomorrow but frankly I think on the offensive side this really isn't a debate. |
Hey Homer, where's Marge?
Our offense averaged more PPG than yours this past season....with Tarvaris Jackson and without Okung and Rice.
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imani
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 21366
Location: Harlem, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| stchamp98 wrote: | | imani wrote: | | stchamp98 wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | SaveourSonics wrote: | | J Pep 4 Step wrote: | | I think you should have added an "About the same" option. Since the discussion that spurred this poll really centered on StChamp saying they were pretty even. |
That's fair. I would say they are roughly the same (I mean they did finish with one more win, 1-1 against each other, both experienced similar roller coaster seasons, and are only separated by 1 spot in the draft).
I guess my post is more of a "if I had to pick one" ultimatum. Kinda like what you did with Iggles. |
Yeah, no doubt. Just saying if this was meant to adress the original discussion (where the challenge of "put it to a poll" was issued) then it's missing the mark IMO. StChamp was arguing they both looked pretty much the same now and going forward. So that should be an option. |
That is exactly what stchamp was doing. Shouldn't be surprised that he couldn't pick that up. |
I don't think it's equal, that just sounds like wishful thinking on the part of cards fans to me.
But hey, if i think a statistically better and younger defense that faced a tougher schedule is......better, i guess i'm just unintelligent. Or a homer.
Or i'm just judging two defenses as i see them.
I'm not just going to agree or cosign with someone else just because they say their team is equal to the one i root for. Your gonna have to back that up. Just because we split a season series and you had a better record by one game.....doesn automatically make you equal or better |
Wishful thinking because I'm willing to give an accurate, non-homeristic view of where my favorite team stands? Sorry, if you're looking for random acts of bias, you're on your own.
Um, what? Having a near identical record(Albeit better) overall all with a near identical record heads up(With both games decided by 3 points) very much does make us equal....by pure definition. The field of play is what seperates good teams from bad teams. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing here? Why do we watch on Sundays? |
especially when one is the easiest schedule in the NFL. There is one truly impressive win on your schedule. 4 overtime victories is something no other team will likely ever enjoy, but if you look at the teams you went into overtime against.....it puts a damper on it.
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| Cypher wrote: | | Erryday i'm Russelin'. |
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stchamp98
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52947
Location: Havre, Montana
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | stchamp98 wrote: | Wishful thinking because I'm willing to give an accurate, non-homeristic view of where my favorite team stands? Sorry, if you're looking for random acts of bias, you're on your own.
Um, what? Having a near identical record(Albeit better) overall all with a near identical record heads up(With both games decided by 3 points) very much does make us equal....by pure definition. The field of play is what seperates good teams from bad teams. Otherwise, what the hell are we doing here? Why do we watch on Sundays? |
To avoid our families, duh.
Honestly, at this point, it is a complete wash. Both teams have a full off-season to go through so we'll see what happens. I think Seattle fans are getting a little big in their britches for a team that lacks a QB. |
Which was my point from the beginning.
Although saying that is apparently some sort of weakness on my part.
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