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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8286
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Sick in the head Reply with quote

Quote:
“Mr. Harrison called Rob Vito, UNEQUAL’s CEO, to thank him for putting UNEQUAL CRT™ in his helmet, proclaiming it was the first time he did not experience post-game head pain or ringing in his ears.” In seven years.


Quote:
Stipulate, because how can you not, that James Harrison is a human paid handsomely to be a professional nutbag, and also that Harrison is an extremely self-aware nutbag who knows full well that his weekly maiming missions may be conspiring to turn his own and other players’ brains into corned beef hash. Stipulate that, and this admission from one of the NFL’s hardest men is still downright horrific.



Quote:
Of course, the NFL’s concussion pandemic doesn’t start and end with James Harrison. He’s both a patsy and a willing boogeyman. He is the bad guy, and proud of it, and as such is Goodell’s public relations dream—a villain out of a nightmare, fully realized and sitting on the edge of the bed in all his brooding [inappropriate/removed] glory.


an outstanding article on head injuries in the NFL and NHL and the league's willingly letting these players hurt themselves.
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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I read the thread title, I thought you were going to highlight some of my insane posts... Laughing

Seriously, though, I don't know who to blame, but why in heaven's name did coaches start teaching the technique of leading w/ the helmet when tackling? This is a practice that needs to stop, and honestly, the NFL/NCAA should hire a rep to monitor defensive practice sessions/meetings to ensure this type of technique is not being taught or condoned. I do realize that some of these injuries occur by pure accident, but largely, these type of brain injuries are a result of taught/coached techniques. And while we as fans love to see the big, fumble-producing "pops", I, for one, would enjoy watching the game just as well without those types of hits occuring. In fact, there is nothing prettier than seeing a RB/QB/WR being wrap-up tackled by a DL/LB.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
When I read the thread title, I thought you were going to highlight some of my insane posts... Laughing

Seriously, though, I don't know who to blame, but why in heaven's name did coaches start teaching the technique of leading w/ the helmet when tackling? This is a practice that needs to stop, and honestly, the NFL/NCAA should hire a rep to monitor defensive practice sessions/meetings to ensure this type of technique is not being taught or condoned. I do realize that some of these injuries occur by pure accident, but largely, these type of brain injuries are a result of taught/coached techniques. And while we as fans love to see the big, fumble-producing "pops", I, for one, would enjoy watching the game just as well without those types of hits occuring. In fact, there is nothing prettier than seeing a RB/QB/WR being wrap-up tackled by a DL/LB.


Why is a Qb/WR head different than a lineman or RB? Why is it fine that a RB can lower his head to hammer into another player but a LB can not? Why doesn't the NFL mandate safer equipment that might help rather than sell the violence of big hits?

It is not a simple question
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the new rules is the NFL version of CYA. That way when lawsuits come down years later they can say..."Hey we made rules about it. We were proactive". They had to do something with all the attention the issue was receiving. They couldn't ignore it. It would be to costly down the road.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mixed on the article. Good insight but obvious slant/attack on Harrison. It is impossible to not make helmet contact as a linebacker or lineman during the duration of a game, well unless you are on the sidelines. It doesnt have to be a highlight hit and most arent that you actually get your bell rung. He was right Harrison does make the perfect villain or poster boy to slant your argument or point of view, and the league has helped in making him that, not that James is innocent.

I do agree that it is absurd that the league allows certain plays such as cuts on dlineman.
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Leader O'Cola


Joined: 17 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

until they find a way to eliminate the persistent chronic H2H hits at the line between linemen they are big league hypocrites. lots of science showing it accumulates far worse ....
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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
When I read the thread title, I thought you were going to highlight some of my insane posts... Laughing

Seriously, though, I don't know who to blame, but why in heaven's name did coaches start teaching the technique of leading w/ the helmet when tackling? This is a practice that needs to stop, and honestly, the NFL/NCAA should hire a rep to monitor defensive practice sessions/meetings to ensure this type of technique is not being taught or condoned. I do realize that some of these injuries occur by pure accident, but largely, these type of brain injuries are a result of taught/coached techniques. And while we as fans love to see the big, fumble-producing "pops", I, for one, would enjoy watching the game just as well without those types of hits occuring. In fact, there is nothing prettier than seeing a RB/QB/WR being wrap-up tackled by a DL/LB.


Why is a Qb/WR head different than a lineman or RB? Why is it fine that a RB can lower his head to hammer into another player but a LB can not? Why doesn't the NFL mandate safer equipment that might help rather than sell the violence of big hits?

It is not a simple question


Agree totally, and didn't mean to dismiss the fact of utilizing technology to better protect players, sorry. And you are right, the technique of lowering the head of a RB should be frowned upon as well. The NFL should absolutely promote the safety of the players moreso than selling big hits. Amazing that on more than one occasion they fine a player (Deebo) for illegal hits, yet sell or glamorize photos/videos of those same hits.

Definitely not a simple question indeed.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
All the new rules is the NFL version of CYA. That way when lawsuits come down years later they can say..."Hey we made rules about it. We were proactive". They had to do something with all the attention the issue was receiving. They couldn't ignore it. It would be to costly down the road.


Exactly thats what its really mostly about.

What i get a kick out of is that at least in my experience the ones that [inappropriate/removed] the most about the illegal hits never actually played the game. While I understand some concern there also is a very unrealistic expectation as to how things actually happen, with comments such as "he could of stopped", "he knew" "he couldve avoided" etc . somehow I believe physics would actually disagree in many cases. Like they are superheros and can see things 10x faster than everyone else and have the ability to tell their brain to change direction and have their bodies be able to respond in time. Its not so easy. Hell Ahmad Bradshaw couldnt even get himself to stop from fallin into the endzone. There is a point where you make a decision to do something, your mind and body agree and follow and than to abruptly stop it while its in motion is highly unprobable. If its the case then why dont so many people avoid car accidents , they make decisons to do something and then arent capable of responding in time to correct it, or I guess they all just want to get into accidents?
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am no more in favor of chronic encephalopathy than the next guy, but damn, at some point it just has to be accepted that helmet to helmet contact is part of the game.

Eliminate it at the line? Prevent a RB from lowering their head into contact? It comes to a point where it is just not reasonable to adopt some of these ideas and still call the sport football.

The simple fact is that this is a violent sport. Guys who play this sport need to sign off on the now well know and well documented risks of playing and eliminate league/team liability. Let's not pretend these guys are victims of either neglect or lack of medical attention any longer. Once upon a time maybe, but now they are informed willing participants.

Sure, do everything possible from an equipment technology standpoint. Eliminate avoidable hits against defenseless players within reason....but please do not change the basic nature of the game.

The raw gladiatorial element to this game is the single biggest factor that makes it the most profitable North American sport. There are other routes to avoiding brain injury than destroying the fundamental nature of the game.
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would compare it to smoking. You know the risks. Don't turn around and sue the ciggarette company when you develop lung cancer.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
I am no more in favor of chronic encephalopathy than the next guy, but damn, at some point it just has to be accepted that helmet to helmet contact is part of the game.

Eliminate it at the line? Prevent a RB from lowering their head into contact? It comes to a point where it is just not reasonable to adopt some of these ideas and still call the sport football.

The simple fact is that this is a violent sport. Guys who play this sport need to sign off on the now well know and well documented risks of playing and eliminate league/team liability. Let's not pretend these guys are victims of either neglect or lack of medical attention any longer. Once upon a time maybe, but now they are informed willing participants.

Sure, do everything possible from an equipment technology standpoint. Eliminate avoidable hits against defenseless players within reason....but please do not change the basic nature of the game.

The raw gladiatorial element to this game is the single biggest factor that makes it the most profitable North American sport. There are other routes to avoiding brain injury than destroying the fundamental nature of the game.


I totally agree with you which is why I like to point out that the NFL should put money into designing better equipment to protect the players and mandate it. Just fining the players is plan stupid.

Case in point. The hit on McCoy would have been perfectly legal if he would have held onto the ball. What is the difference in his head in .5 of a second?
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
I would compare it to smoking. You know the risks. Don't turn around and sue the ciggarette company when you develop lung cancer.


Actually, you do and win big money.Shocked
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
I am no more in favor of chronic encephalopathy than the next guy, but damn, at some point it just has to be accepted that helmet to helmet contact is part of the game.

Eliminate it at the line? Prevent a RB from lowering their head into contact? It comes to a point where it is just not reasonable to adopt some of these ideas and still call the sport football.

The simple fact is that this is a violent sport. Guys who play this sport need to sign off on the now well know and well documented risks of playing and eliminate league/team liability. Let's not pretend these guys are victims of either neglect or lack of medical attention any longer. Once upon a time maybe, but now they are informed willing participants.

Sure, do everything possible from an equipment technology standpoint. Eliminate avoidable hits against defenseless players within reason....but please do not change the basic nature of the game.

The raw gladiatorial element to this game is the single biggest factor that makes it the most profitable North American sport. There are other routes to avoiding brain injury than destroying the fundamental nature of the game.


Incidental H2H contact is one thing, but teaching players to "spear" with their helmet is technique that doesn't need to be taught...pretty sure they weren't doing this in the time of leather helmets, or heck, even 20-30 years ago. The game can be every bit as exciting with sound fundamental tackling/rushing techniques that have been around since the games inception.

I do agree that players ultimately can decide whether they want to use their head as a weapon, and if they choose to do so, well then, yuo don't have a leg to stand on legally, IMO. Where I do feel for the players, I guess, and I don't know if this is ever an issue, but if they don't create the "splash" plays, do they get labelled as soft or ineffective, ultimately deciding their playing status? Am I too naive believing that the players can make a choice in this without effecting their career? I don't know, but bottom line, the NFL should monitor any type of coaching of these types of techniques, while at the same time, do everything possible in the way of rules and equipment to make this game as safe as possible. What I don't agree with is the lawsuit-happy this society is turning into, especially with stuff like this.

This is a dangerous sport, and face it, these guys are making millions of dollars doing it. They chose to play this game, knowing the risks involved, and blaming/suing the league for injuries sustained as a player just doesn't seem right to me.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
treat88 wrote:
I am no more in favor of chronic encephalopathy than the next guy, but damn, at some point it just has to be accepted that helmet to helmet contact is part of the game.

Eliminate it at the line? Prevent a RB from lowering their head into contact? It comes to a point where it is just not reasonable to adopt some of these ideas and still call the sport football.

The simple fact is that this is a violent sport. Guys who play this sport need to sign off on the now well know and well documented risks of playing and eliminate league/team liability. Let's not pretend these guys are victims of either neglect or lack of medical attention any longer. Once upon a time maybe, but now they are informed willing participants.

Sure, do everything possible from an equipment technology standpoint. Eliminate avoidable hits against defenseless players within reason....but please do not change the basic nature of the game.

The raw gladiatorial element to this game is the single biggest factor that makes it the most profitable North American sport. There are other routes to avoiding brain injury than destroying the fundamental nature of the game.


I totally agree with you which is why I like to point out that the NFL should put money into designing better equipment to protect the players and mandate it. Just fining the players is plan stupid.

Case in point. The hit on McCoy would have been perfectly legal if he would have held onto the ball. What is the difference in his head in .5 of a second?


Not a single damn thing brick.

And why is it any more concerning if McCoy gets lit up than if Hillis gets lit up? Put them both in the best gear that the NFL's billions can design and then play the damn game.

So sick of wondering if the league is going to look at the tape and decide a hit was too violent in retrospect so they fine the guy. Great, a wallet is a little lighter, but a brain is still scrambled and they are trying to assign blame and make a guy appear like he did it maliciously.

As it stands, the NFLPA won't sign off on an injury waiver for anything other than pre-existing injuries. They are going to have to find a middle ground which places some of the burden of risk on the player with recognition that they are well compensated for assuming that risk.
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Last edited by treat88 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
treat88 wrote:
I am no more in favor of chronic encephalopathy than the next guy, but damn, at some point it just has to be accepted that helmet to helmet contact is part of the game.

Eliminate it at the line? Prevent a RB from lowering their head into contact? It comes to a point where it is just not reasonable to adopt some of these ideas and still call the sport football.

The simple fact is that this is a violent sport. Guys who play this sport need to sign off on the now well know and well documented risks of playing and eliminate league/team liability. Let's not pretend these guys are victims of either neglect or lack of medical attention any longer. Once upon a time maybe, but now they are informed willing participants.

Sure, do everything possible from an equipment technology standpoint. Eliminate avoidable hits against defenseless players within reason....but please do not change the basic nature of the game.

The raw gladiatorial element to this game is the single biggest factor that makes it the most profitable North American sport. There are other routes to avoiding brain injury than destroying the fundamental nature of the game.


Incidental H2H contact is one thing, but teaching players to "spear" with their helmet is technique that doesn't need to be taught...pretty sure they weren't doing this in the time of leather helmets, or heck, even 20-30 years ago. The game can be every bit as exciting with sound fundamental tackling/rushing techniques that have been around since the games inception.

I do agree that players ultimately can decide whether they want to use their head as a weapon, and if they choose to do so, well then, yuo don't have a leg to stand on legally, IMO. Where I do feel for the players, I guess, and I don't know if this is ever an issue, but if they don't create the "splash" plays, do they get labelled as soft or ineffective, ultimately deciding their playing status? Am I too naive believing that the players can make a choice in this without effecting their career? I don't know, but bottom line, the NFL should monitor any type of coaching of these types of techniques, while at the same time, do everything possible in the way of rules and equipment to make this game as safe as possible. What I don't agree with is the lawsuit-happy this society is turning into, especially with stuff like this.

This is a dangerous sport, and face it, these guys are making millions of dollars doing it. They chose to play this game, knowing the risks involved, and blaming/suing the league for injuries sustained as a player just doesn't seem right to me.


Not claiming eliminating illegal technique is destroying the fundamental nature of the sport.

Spearing is a very specific term for an illegal form of using the helmet as a weapon.

That is completely different than the unavoidable, unintentional, and even a majority of intentional collisions that happen in the course of routine play.

The league has drawn a pretty reasonable line of not being able to strike the head/neck area of defenseless players while allowing helmet to helmet against non-defenseless players.

If the pendulum swings any further tho,or if fans become any less educated, the sport could change drastically and not for the better IMO.
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