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biggsam48


Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 637
Location: New York
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who do we like at TE? Fleener and Allen will likely cost a first, which i think is a bit too high. How would you guys feel about TE Charles out of Georgia at the end of round 2?
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minutemancl


Joined: 06 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biggsam48 wrote:
Who do we like at TE? Fleener and Allen will likely cost a first, which i think is a bit too high. How would you guys feel about TE Charles out of Georgia at the end of round 2?


I like Ballard and Bear at TE. Those 2, along with Hynocerous actually being able to catch passes out of the backfield, gives us plenty of big guy targets.

Also, I want to see what we have in Justin Trattou before we draft a DE first round. I know he's a UDFA, but we have seen first hand how good UDFAs can really be. I'm not saying he is going to be a stud, but I think he could be a good rotational guy if he sticks around.

I think we need to address the OL big time, as well as RB. Those are the 2 biggest areas of need.
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aceinthehouse wrote:
But why not maintain that dominance? You guys were there...

Let me give you my personal opinion, on what I think has happened.
It all started with the release of the coke machine in Brandon Jacobs.
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Guapo


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is going to be our best draft in recent memory. That's saying a lot! Outside of OL we have players with potential that may be able to step up and make us forget they were ever a need. At LB Williams looks like an impact player, Herzlich looked a little bit like Blackburn only better, more athletic possibly a 3 down LB and Jones can be a 2 down thumper as well.. At S Sash will be a year smarter and we have Chad Jones coming back not expecting much from him though but still potential is there.. at CB I'm only worried about people defecting.. Meaning we can go BPA in every round.. Even at OL it means a lot more that they're giving time together not switched up any chance you get
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minutemancl


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, so uhh, scratch my last post. Fleener in the second might be a good idea. Beckum and Ballard BOTH tore their ACL. Mad
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aceinthehouse wrote:
But why not maintain that dominance? You guys were there...

Let me give you my personal opinion, on what I think has happened.
It all started with the release of the coke machine in Brandon Jacobs.
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dkebones


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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Location: Giants fan in the Seahawk's backyard...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minutemancl wrote:
Yeah, so uhh, scratch my last post. Fleener in the second might be a good idea. Beckum and Ballard BOTH tore their ACL. Mad


do not believe that will happen.
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BassistofDoom


Joined: 17 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say our needs are:
1. O-line (especially tackles and center)
2. Tight end (with Ballard and Beckum down)
3. MLB (only if we find one that is close to Goff in run support and a better pass coverer)
4. Secondary (mainly depth)
5. WR (4th-7th round need in my book, someone to replace Manningham because he'll probably be gone)
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KJax_WI


Joined: 21 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Allen in the first round at our pick will be a good value...Charles might not be there when we pick in the second and I think we need a athletic TE
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Gmen


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJax_WI wrote:
I think Allen in the first round at our pick will be a good value...Charles might not be there when we pick in the second and I think we need a athletic TE

I think Charles will have the same issues that Beckum has had in this league - too small to be an in line blocker. He may be even smaller than Beckum. Not sure if I want to go down that road again.
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dkebones


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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Location: Giants fan in the Seahawk's backyard...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
KJax_WI wrote:
I think Allen in the first round at our pick will be a good value...Charles might not be there when we pick in the second and I think we need a athletic TE

I think Charles will have the same issues that Beckum has had in this league - too small to be an in line blocker. He may be even smaller than Beckum. Not sure if I want to go down that road again.


this is why I would be fine with Fleener with our #32. I know, o-line is arguably a bigger need, and if Cordy Glenn is there when we pick it would be really hard not to take him.

But Fleener has all the tangibles (though he doesn't have the top-end speed that Finley and Graham have), and put him together with the TE coach that worked wonders turning Kevin Boss into a servicable blocker, and I'll be sold. Would help soften a potential loss of MM with his (anticipated) big payday, and help the run game at the same time.
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NYGiantsman10


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about a raw guy like Ladarius Green for TE? He's more like a souped up WR than a TE right now, but with his athleticism and if he's coachable Mike Pope could turn him into a stud in a year or 2. Maybe let Bear start in the meantime?
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R7D2


Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we snag either Dwayne Allen or Coby Fleener and a stud OL with our 1st two picks I'd be ecstatic! To make that happen(if Allen isn't available) what if we traded back to early in the 2nd and pick up an extra pick, draft Coby Fleener(TE Stanford) and Kelechi Osemele(OT/OG Iowa State) in the 2nd round?. Just a thought.
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IbleedBLUE24


Joined: 18 Mar 2008
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Location: New York
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my take on our needs.

Dire needs:
O-line:
Honestly I have lumped together the line because there are question marks at every position. OT Diehl and MacKenzie have both played ok and poor at times this season, and MacKenzie is an aging (33) FA while Diehl is 31. We have Beatty coming back who I believe is the starter at LT next year, but he hasn’t played a full season yet. Brewer has size and athleticism and can be a dark horse at the RT position. Then there is OG where Snee has been a staple for many years, but he is aging and his play recessed this year. Boothe has played well in relief, but is a back up (a good one to have though). Petrus played well in relief as well and I think he actually gets the chance to start at LG next year. At C Baas has been the worse FA signing so far for JR. Is old, injury prone, and ultimately at average player at his position. There is no back up to be spoken of. The Giants need to address the line no question about it, but how to do it is the million dollar question. I ultimately see multiple picks in the Draft:

Draft players:
(First) OT Mike Adams, Ohio State (6’7” 323lbs)- Would have to move up to get him, but by some miracle he falls The Giants absolutely have to steal him with the 32nd pick. He has great Size, athleticism, ability to play LT or RT (Ultimately a RT with Giants) who is a great run blocker and above average pass protector. If Adams is not there, I will be on my knees praying that JR doesn’t reach for Zebrie Sanders (FSU).

(Second) OT Bobby Massie, Ole Miss (6’6” 315lbs)- I think he has the talent to be a 10+ year starter at RT, and barring injuries would allow the Giants to never have to worry about the RT position. Post-combine he may begin to rise up due to his athleticism, and a coach feeling he could play LT.

(Sleeper) OT Josh Oglesby, Wisconsin (6’7” 330lbs)- Would be available at the end of the 4th, and his an absolute beast of a man who is a great run blocker who needs work on his pass blocking skills.

(First)OG Cordy Glenn, Georgia (6’6” 346lbs)- Has the potential to play RT, but I think he is better suited to play OG, but like you I am just a fan with an opinion. He is a great run blocker whose long arms make him a intriguing prospect at OT as well.

(Third) OG Brandon Washington, Miami (6’4” 320lbs)- Played LT last year at Miami and stuggled throughout the year, but in 2010 was an all-acc Guard. His stock depends on whether or not some team thinks he can play OT. Has good athleticism and a nasty streak that will help out in the run game.

(Sleeper) OG Art Frost, Rutgers (6’8” 310lbs)- Has talent and upside, can play OG or RT which is always nice.

(First) OC Peter Konz, Wisconsin (6’5” 315lbs)- Like Adams if he is available at the end of the first round, JR will laugh as he turns in his selection. Ranks right up there with the Pouncey’s and Mangold as prospects. Could start immediately at C while Baas move over to LG.

(Second) OC Ben Jones, Georgia (6’3 304lbs)- Great run blocker that needs time devlop as a pass protector.

(Sleeper) OC Garth Gerhart, ASU (6’1” 301lbs)- Size is a concern, but he is a athletic C that if given time to develop could be a starter in the NFL.

TE: The dire situation we are now facing at TE makes this as important or just slightly less than the O-line. Going into the 2012 season we will have one healthy TE from the 2011 season, Pascoe. As much as I like Pascoe’s blue collar work ethic and versatility he is best used as a back-up TE. Even before Beckum and Ballard tore their ACL’s I felt the Giants needed to draft a TE early on. Ballard to me would be better as the second TE where he can get lost in the defense. Late in the year when teams began to come after him he was less productive. Plus he missed time due to an injury at the end of the season, and now a torn ACL so injuries become a major concern. Beckum was on the cusp of being cut in my book even before his injury now I fully expect him to be waived with an injury settlement.

Draft Players:

(First) Dwayne Allen, Clemson (6’5” 255lbs)- Many people are going to argue on this forum as well as the Draft forum over Allen vs. Fleener. Both provide tremendous athletes who have the ability to stretch the defense. Fleener comes from a pro-style attack which is to his benefit over Allen. Fleener also has the benefit of being used more in the receiving game than Allen, oh and he had Luck as his QB (Boyd is no slouch, but no Luck either). Where Allen separates himself to me is the blocking aspect. I remember reading on walterfootball.com that Bowers said Allen use to single him out in practice to block to improve his skill. That to me is a huge plus that he is willing to go against the best to try and improve his craft. Right now Allen is the more complete TE, and if he is there with 32nd pick I feel he will and should be the pick.

(Second) Orson Charles, Georgia (6’3” 241lbs)- Tremendous athlete that if he improves his blocking may end up being the best TE of this class.

(sleeper) Rhett Ellison, USC (6’5” 245lbs)- Another athletic TE that has tremendous potential. Would need time to develop though which is something the Giants just don’t have with this position. I wouldn’t mind JR double dipping on TE’s in the draft if Ellison is available in the 5th or later.

Needs based upon offseason moves:
RB: Depending on Jacobs the Giants might be players in the draft. He stated during the season he didn’t want to be here (not in those exact words), but now that the medicine of winning has set in, he states he doesn’t want to go anywhere else. I think it’s time to replace Jacobs, and would love to see JR try to trade up for Richardson (Bama) as I think he is a top 3 RB in the NFL for the next 10 years, but that will never happen and isn’t a very smart business move. I am just a huge fan of Richardson and that is my ultimate fantasy. Miller (Miami) will get looks at the end of the first, and I wouldn’t be upset with the pick. However, AB is the starter and I don’t think Miller will be BPA so I don’t think it is the best pick. Plus I like Tolbert as a UFA from San Diego more than any RB in the draft not named Richardson. A late round guy to give Scott and Ware competition could be possible as well. I like Bobby Rainey, out of WKU.

CB: The dire need of this position is based upon FA. TT, Ross, Tyron, Johnson are all UFA’s this offseason. I want to see TT, Tyron, Johnson all resigned. Ross has been mediocre IMO and coming off a superbowl I think he will get a contract worth more than he is worth this offseason. If TT, Tyron, and Johnson are all resigned the depth going into the season will be (C-web, TT, Prince, Tyron, Witherspoon, Johnson). If one or more are not resigned, the Giants will be looking at players with their second round pick. Given the injury concerns of our FA, and C-web aging don’t be surprised if the Giants select a CB as high as the 2nd round, Rhodes (FSU) or Norman (Coastal Carolina). I wouldn’t mind seeing someone like Harris (Oregon) given a flyer in the 5th despite his character concerns.

WR: This is only a need based on Mario this offseason. If his superbowl catch gets him overpaid then the Giants will need to replace his body. I think Jernigan and Barden would get the first chance at his place on the depth chart, much like Cruz was given the shot this year to prove himself. One player to be aware of if Mario signs elsewhere isn’t in the draft, it’s our own WR Hixon. Possible selection is McNutt (Iowa) if he slips to the 3rd round.

P: Whatever has to happen, Weatherford must resigned. I do not want to see another rookie P… ever! If he signs a big pay day elsewhere we should address the postion via FA.

S: Antrel Rolle and Kenny Phillips will be next year’s starter. Sash will be a quality back up and ST player. Should Grant resign we are set, if he is not resigned the Giants could look to add a late round player. I am actually rooting really hard for one thing more than any this offseason. I would like to see Chad Jones make it back to the football field, but with that gruesome of a injury and 2 years removed from football it will be tough. If he regained his ability pre-injury he would be an excellent in Grants old role. Would be an incredible story in the 2012 season if he could make it back with his hard work and dedication.

DT: Canty is aging, but will remain the starter. Linval is the starter next to him. Bernard was a quality rotational guy last year after looking like a bust of a signing, but is aging. Austin is coming of injury and his 2 years removed from football. Could spend a mid round pick, but I think a cheap FA vet signing would be the better options.

QB: Easy E isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, but if Carr decides to leave again he will need to be replaced. Even if he signs I see a late round, “developmental” QB who hopefully can last a week on the practice squad.

MLB: I believe that Goff and Blackburn will be resigned, and that these two plus Jones and Herzlich will compete for the spot. Burfict (ASU) will get looks if he is there in the first, but I think that Jones and Herzlich will be given another year to see if they are the answer. Don’t forget this was a shortened offseason which hurt them with mentally preparing for the game, and were getting by on athletic ability. Give them one more year, and if they still continue to look like they are not going to be the answer then go hard after Te’o (ND) which is my man crush at MLB.

Not needed:
OLB: Boley is going start at Will and I believe that Williams is going to be the Sam. Some may not be happy since both are undersized chase and tackle linebackers, but that is exactly the type of linebacker Fewell likes to use. With another year Williams should only improve his run defense and blitzing. Herzlich and Paysinger provide quality depth and competition in camp.

DE: Even if Osi is traded I think this position is set. If Osi leaves, I believe Kiwi will be switched back and hopefully Toffleson is resigned. The will give us once again a dominant pass rush going into the season. Coughlin and the team seem to like Trattou a lot, can be the next Toffleson due to his motor.

FB: After the superbowl how can you not like Hynoski, barring injuries or major setbacks he will be our FB for years to come.

K: I am not a fan of Tynes, but like it or not he isn’t going anywhere. I will just have to continue to cross my fingers when we kick a FG.
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bballbkd1001


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
KJax_WI wrote:
I think Allen in the first round at our pick will be a good value...Charles might not be there when we pick in the second and I think we need a athletic TE

I think Charles will have the same issues that Beckum has had in this league - too small to be an in line blocker. He may be even smaller than Beckum. Not sure if I want to go down that road again.
yaaa I'm starting to see him as the sinorice moss of tightends
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent writeup, IbleedBLUE24. I can't disagree with any of that.
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bagh


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/mock-drafts

The had 4 of their guys do Mock Drafts and the most common pick was:

Dontari Poe, DT, Memphis
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