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| Eli or Ben? |
| Eli Manning |
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KingofSTATS
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 7923
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 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | heart of a lion wrote: | | Wouldn't want either on my team. Rivers is best QB of that drat class, by far. Too bad that people can't understand that QB is just part of the team, not like QB is THE team. Its just wrong to rate QB based on team success. |
So what DO you base your ratings on? It takes two to make a completion, so can't use completion percentage, yards, QB rating, etc. because there is more than one person involved in completion. What if you are surrounded with WRs/TEs who can't get open, can't catch, have an offense more based on run than pass?
What I'm saying is that you have to include wins, to include SB and playoff wins, in your rating of QBs. If your team is always playing from behind, then your QB is going to be presented w/ a LOT of 4th quarters against prevent defenses and having to abandon the run, so the QB can play pitch and catch all day, improving the stats.
Go ahead and use what you want, but to discount wins in your evaluation, the ability to lead your team to victory, is ridiculous, IMO. You can have Rivers all you want. I'll take Ben and Eli all day, every day, over Rivers and his inflated stats. |
Thank God for winning percentage being available..
Ben has a slightly better winning percentage over Rivers who has a slightly better winning percentage than Eli.. While Ben and Eli have not slightly, but much better coaches. So where are these inflated stats?? The ones that are winning 63% of his starts?
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Jotun_Fan
Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| KingofSTATS wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | It's incredibly hard for me to not say Eli Manning. I love Ben Roethlisberger and think he's right behind Eli as the 6th best QB in the NFL(Eli is now 5th in my opinion). However, I don't think people TRULY understand that Eli Manning quite literally carried that Giants team from Week 1 to the Super Bowl. If Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady won a Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked running game and a bottom 16 defense this board would springboard them into instant elite-ness. If they did it in route to a SECOND Super Bowl ring they'd probably be the "Best"...
It's not that I think Ben CAN'T do what Eli did but rather it's the fact that Eli DID! |
Your eyes do not deceive you, he did just say that.  |
The team played better after a 7-7 start, but Eli and the receivers kept the season alive for a team that was bad until then. The secondary had several blown coverages a game that resulted in points, and they had no run game at all. |
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Sandybaby716
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 3526
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Steelers546 wrote: | I was thinking about this after the game.
Figure you have the elite QB's
1 - Aaron Rodgers
2 - Tom Brady
3 - Drew Brees
4 - HEALTHY Peyton Manning (big question mark obviously)
Then I think you have the sub-elites (these two are basically interchangeable)
5 - Ben Roethlisberger
6 - Eli Manning
Then I think you have the very good QB's
7 - Philip Rivers
8 - Tony Romo
9 - Matt Schaub
10 - Matthew Stafford / Michael Vick
This is how I see it right now. |
wow, this is pretty much my list too. I actually have Cutler 8th, Stafford 9th and Schaub 10th, but our top 7 is identical. Romo's my 11.
I still take Big Ben just barely over Eli. I just know that every once and awhile, Bad Eli emerges, which is really the only thing keeping him sub-elite. Ben has more consistency, he generally is the same from year to year and game to game.
what's fascinating is that the clear-cut top 6 are the only active QBs who have won Super Bowls.
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| wgbeethree wrote: | | In all fairness it is kind of rude to just lay injured at their feet while the Lions defensive players are trying to hold a completely unrelated dance party. |
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j-e-tsjetsjets
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| KingofSTATS wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | It's incredibly hard for me to not say Eli Manning. I love Ben Roethlisberger and think he's right behind Eli as the 6th best QB in the NFL(Eli is now 5th in my opinion). However, I don't think people TRULY understand that Eli Manning quite literally carried that Giants team from Week 1 to the Super Bowl. If Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady won a Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked running game and a bottom 16 defense this board would springboard them into instant elite-ness. If they did it in route to a SECOND Super Bowl ring they'd probably be the "Best"...
It's not that I think Ben CAN'T do what Eli did but rather it's the fact that Eli DID! |
Your eyes do not deceive you, he did just say that. |
The Giants in the regular season had a bottom 5 defense and running game. And one of the worst pass-blocking lines in the league considering he was hurried more then any other QB. So if Eli wasn't the reason they won nine games then what the heck was? |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| KingofSTATS wrote: | | Ward4HOF wrote: | | heart of a lion wrote: | | Wouldn't want either on my team. Rivers is best QB of that drat class, by far. Too bad that people can't understand that QB is just part of the team, not like QB is THE team. Its just wrong to rate QB based on team success. |
So what DO you base your ratings on? It takes two to make a completion, so can't use completion percentage, yards, QB rating, etc. because there is more than one person involved in completion. What if you are surrounded with WRs/TEs who can't get open, can't catch, have an offense more based on run than pass?
What I'm saying is that you have to include wins, to include SB and playoff wins, in your rating of QBs. If your team is always playing from behind, then your QB is going to be presented w/ a LOT of 4th quarters against prevent defenses and having to abandon the run, so the QB can play pitch and catch all day, improving the stats.
Go ahead and use what you want, but to discount wins in your evaluation, the ability to lead your team to victory, is ridiculous, IMO. You can have Rivers all you want. I'll take Ben and Eli all day, every day, over Rivers and his inflated stats. |
Thank God for winning percentage being available..
Ben has a slightly better winning percentage over Rivers who has a slightly better winning percentage than Eli.. While Ben and Eli have not slightly, but much better coaches. So where are these inflated stats?? The ones that are winning 63% of his starts? |
The ones from having gargantuan receviers and Antonio Gates, that one. OK, I'll give you that they aren't overly, if at all inflated.
And you are the one that is overexaggerating saying they are a "distant" 2nd and 3rd to Rivers, yet you just say they are all very similar in winning %...so, which one is it?
And thank you for proving my point that wins are what matter. 'Preciate it! |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| KingofSTATS wrote: | Right now I think they are a distant 2nd and 3rd of their draft class behind Rivers. But between the 2, I would say Eli has jumped over Ben. Eli is finally looking like a proficient QB, he is finally consistently making BIG BOY throws, something Ben still lacks to do. They both still have such a long way to go from the pure eye test. Release, delivery, touch, velocity control, trajectory anticipation. Eli has drastically improved his what was once horrible pocket presence, Ben still needs alot of work there. They both have good footwork and pretty good form and good arms.
Reading defenses, anticipating route development and just taking over games. Need to see these guys impact their offense alot more. Need to see them lead more elite offenses and actually do their job. Eli atleast has done it 2 times. Ben in 8 years 0 times. <--- that is insane to me, never leading ya offense to top 5 scoring with that kind of talent.
Ben is as good as they come on broken plays and making the possible out of the impossible and at the WOW plays. Both need to work on consistency season in season out game in and game out, quarter in and quarter out. Consistency in any aspect of playing any position is the most important of any other possible criteria, by alot and it's not even humorously close.
For now Eli then Ben. Personal attack in 3.....2.....1 |
You are kidding, right? Boy, your screeen name says it all.
And are you referring to our 2 6'5" WRs and Gates? You need to realize that it's River's supporting cast that allows him to do what he does.
As I told the other poster. Enioy your "stats", we'll enjoy our SB winning QBs. The ones that take over an offense when it counts, in the playoffs; not one that folds when the pressure is on. You can go on and on about how he reads defenses and sends his team to the top 5 in total offense, foot control and what ever other comparison you want to make. In the end, it's about leading your team to SB wins, not top 5 offenses. |
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Shocktopper
Joined: 13 Jan 2012
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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We got it. When Eli does well its a team accomplishment, and when he does bad that's just Eli being Eli. Got all your bases covered for your self fulfilling prophecy I see.
| heart of a lion wrote: | | Wouldn't want either on my team. Rivers is best QB of that drat class, by far. Too bad that people can't understand that QB is just part of the team, not like QB is THE team. Its just wrong to rate QB based on team success. |
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Shockey1979
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 18265
Location: RI/MA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Shocktopper wrote: | We got it. When Eli does well its a team accomplishment, and when he does bad that's just Eli being Eli. Got all your bases covered for your self fulfilling prophecy I see.
| heart of a lion wrote: | | Wouldn't want either on my team. Rivers is best QB of that drat class, by far. Too bad that people can't understand that QB is just part of the team, not like QB is THE team. Its just wrong to rate QB based on team success. |
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It's "right" to rate them exclusively on statistics though even though it takes 11 offensive players and a coaching staff just to move the ball 5 yards.
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A lion roars in the darkness only he holds the key. A light to free me from my burden and grant me life eternally |
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NYGFan101
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Big Ben is is incredibly overrated.
He gets labeled as "clutch" yet he's the main reason why needs to be so, so many times because he sh*ts the bed in the first 3 quarters. Hes crambles around like a chicken with it's head cut off when his OL is fine. Eli has a worse OL than him. Ben is a terrible pocket passer who makes crucial mistakes at times. Got carried to both his SB rings and always as the benefit of an elite defense and rushing game. He should have 4 rings by now. |
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KingofSTATS
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 7923
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | KingofSTATS wrote: | Right now I think they are a distant 2nd and 3rd of their draft class behind Rivers. But between the 2, I would say Eli has jumped over Ben. Eli is finally looking like a proficient QB, he is finally consistently making BIG BOY throws, something Ben still lacks to do. They both still have such a long way to go from the pure eye test. Release, delivery, touch, velocity control, trajectory anticipation. Eli has drastically improved his what was once horrible pocket presence, Ben still needs alot of work there. They both have good footwork and pretty good form and good arms.
Reading defenses, anticipating route development and just taking over games. Need to see these guys impact their offense alot more. Need to see them lead more elite offenses and actually do their job. Eli atleast has done it 2 times. Ben in 8 years 0 times. <--- that is insane to me, never leading ya offense to top 5 scoring with that kind of talent.
Ben is as good as they come on broken plays and making the possible out of the impossible and at the WOW plays. Both need to work on consistency season in season out game in and game out, quarter in and quarter out. Consistency in any aspect of playing any position is the most important of any other possible criteria, by alot and it's not even humorously close.
For now Eli then Ben. Personal attack in 3.....2.....1 |
You are kidding, right? Boy, your screeen name says it all.
And are you referring to our 2 6'5" WRs and Gates? You need to realize that it's River's supporting cast that allows him to do what he does.
As I told the other poster. Enioy your "stats", we'll enjoy our SB winning QBs. The ones that take over an offense when it counts, in the playoffs; not one that folds when the pressure is on. You can go on and on about how he reads defenses and sends his team to the top 5 in total offense, foot control and what ever other comparison you want to make. In the end, it's about leading your team to SB wins, not top 5 offenses. |
Ask NYG and PIT fans if they would trade Wallace and Brown or Nicks and Cruz for VJ and Floyd. I'm guessing no. Brown and Wallace and Nicks and Cruz each had over 1100 yds, only 1 guy had that in SD and we still finished top 5 in scoring.
In their playoffs Rivers and Eli score 19 PPG and Ben 26 PPG. Ben has faced one of the most favorable defensive schedule in the playoffs of any of the current QB's and has had a number of defensive TD's and ST td's in games also, so take it for what it's worth.
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IamADAM
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 397
Location: 10016
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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love having Eli, would not trade him for anything but I'm not ashamed to say that in ranking them, I put Ben ahead of Eli by 1 spot.
Even though Eli had an outstanding season, there are still those times where something misfires in his brain, it seems like, and he just catapults that ball w/ reckless abandon for anyone to catch or pick off..
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 2587
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| KingofSTATS wrote: | | Ward4HOF wrote: | | KingofSTATS wrote: | Right now I think they are a distant 2nd and 3rd of their draft class behind Rivers. But between the 2, I would say Eli has jumped over Ben. Eli is finally looking like a proficient QB, he is finally consistently making BIG BOY throws, something Ben still lacks to do. They both still have such a long way to go from the pure eye test. Release, delivery, touch, velocity control, trajectory anticipation. Eli has drastically improved his what was once horrible pocket presence, Ben still needs alot of work there. They both have good footwork and pretty good form and good arms.
Reading defenses, anticipating route development and just taking over games. Need to see these guys impact their offense alot more. Need to see them lead more elite offenses and actually do their job. Eli atleast has done it 2 times. Ben in 8 years 0 times. <--- that is insane to me, never leading ya offense to top 5 scoring with that kind of talent.
Ben is as good as they come on broken plays and making the possible out of the impossible and at the WOW plays. Both need to work on consistency season in season out game in and game out, quarter in and quarter out. Consistency in any aspect of playing any position is the most important of any other possible criteria, by alot and it's not even humorously close.
For now Eli then Ben. Personal attack in 3.....2.....1 |
You are kidding, right? Boy, your screeen name says it all.
And are you referring to our 2 6'5" WRs and Gates? You need to realize that it's River's supporting cast that allows him to do what he does.
As I told the other poster. Enioy your "stats", we'll enjoy our SB winning QBs. The ones that take over an offense when it counts, in the playoffs; not one that folds when the pressure is on. You can go on and on about how he reads defenses and sends his team to the top 5 in total offense, foot control and what ever other comparison you want to make. In the end, it's about leading your team to SB wins, not top 5 offenses. |
Ask NYG and PIT fans if they would trade Wallace and Brown or Nicks and Cruz for VJ and Floyd. I'm guessing no. Brown and Wallace and Nicks and Cruz each had over 1100 yds, only 1 guy had that in SD and we still finished top 5 in scoring.
In their playoffs Rivers and Eli score 19 PPG and Ben 26 PPG. Ben has faced one of the most favorable defensive schedule in the playoffs of any of the current QB's and has had a number of defensive TD's and ST td's in games also, so take it for what it's worth. |
More cherry picked stats...why am I not surprised? 
And you are going to quote stats (WR) for ONE year of the 8 years these guys have been QBs? Really? This is the first year that Ben has had reliable 1, 2 and 3 WRs. Ben actually has to somewhat "aim" his throws to get it to his targets, unlike Rivers who actually has two WRs with incredible wingspans.
OK, I'll play, how 'bout we trade Gates and Miller?
Anyway, you've made it clear that you don't want to debate QB play with me on the other thread, so I won't expect a response. |
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BlaqOptic
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 25771
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| KingofSTATS wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | It's incredibly hard for me to not say Eli Manning. I love Ben Roethlisberger and think he's right behind Eli as the 6th best QB in the NFL(Eli is now 5th in my opinion). However, I don't think people TRULY understand that Eli Manning quite literally carried that Giants team from Week 1 to the Super Bowl. If Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady won a Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked running game and a bottom 16 defense this board would springboard them into instant elite-ness. If they did it in route to a SECOND Super Bowl ring they'd probably be the "Best"...
It's not that I think Ben CAN'T do what Eli did but rather it's the fact that Eli DID! |
Your eyes do not deceive you, he did just say that. |
Wait... The kid that always talks about how Philip Rivers is so good because he doesn't have a great rushing attack or a good defense - despite both of these being patently false - yet Eli has 6 comeback wins on the season for a 9-7 team that won the Super Bowl and he didn't carry his team? Despite throwing for more yards in a season than Rivers ever has? If Rivers threw for 4,900 yards and 29 TDs with theWORST ranked rushing attack and a bottom 16 defense you'd be telling us how he is the G.O.A.T...
Get your trolling out of here man... It's old and annoying and quite frankly unfounded and sad.
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| sayheykid wrote: | | Eksynyt wrote: | | Some people on here brag about the Seahawks having a defense...where is it? |
It's having a hard time concentrating. |
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BlaqOptic
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 25771
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| NYGFan101 wrote: | Big Ben is is incredibly overrated.
He gets labeled as "clutch" yet he's the main reason why needs to be so, so many times because he sh*ts the bed in the first 3 quarters. Hes crambles around like a chicken with it's head cut off when his OL is fine. Eli has a worse OL than him. Ben is a terrible pocket passer who makes crucial mistakes at times. Got carried to both his SB rings and always as the benefit of an elite defense and rushing game. He should have 4 rings by now. |
And yet his and Eli Manning statistics are virtually the same and Eli wasn't carried to his Super Bowls and is "clutch"? Nice try... If you're going to try and troll at least do it decently.
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| sayheykid wrote: | | Eksynyt wrote: | | Some people on here brag about the Seahawks having a defense...where is it? |
It's having a hard time concentrating. |
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NYGFan101
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| BlaqOptic wrote: | | KingofSTATS wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | It's incredibly hard for me to not say Eli Manning. I love Ben Roethlisberger and think he's right behind Eli as the 6th best QB in the NFL(Eli is now 5th in my opinion). However, I don't think people TRULY understand that Eli Manning quite literally carried that Giants team from Week 1 to the Super Bowl. If Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady won a Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked running game and a bottom 16 defense this board would springboard them into instant elite-ness. If they did it in route to a SECOND Super Bowl ring they'd probably be the "Best"...
It's not that I think Ben CAN'T do what Eli did but rather it's the fact that Eli DID! |
Your eyes do not deceive you, he did just say that. |
Wait... The kid that always talks about how Philip Rivers is so good because he doesn't have a great rushing attack or a good defense - despite both of these being patently false - yet Eli has 6 comeback wins on the season for a 9-7 team that won the Super Bowl and he didn't carry his team? Despite throwing for more yards in a season than Rivers ever has? If Rivers threw for 4,900 yards and 29 TDs with theWORST ranked rushing attack and a bottom 16 defense you'd be telling us how he is the G.O.A.T...
Get your trolling out of here man... It's old and annoying and quite frankly unfounded and sad. |
This.
Eli carried the team in the regular season to the playoffs with the worst rushing game, terrible D, and terrible OL.
Rivers has had talented teams in the past and could not do anything with them besides pad his stats. Fantasy QB who will never win or make a SB. |
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