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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Seraphim made some sense, and Booker might be salvageable. Vesely and Singleton were disasters.

Both Gortat and Okafor's contracts expire after the year. Gortat's $7.7M is half of Okafor's ($14.5M). Gortat is also 29 to Okafor's 31, and apparently is much healthier. Apparently, the first round pick is top-12 protected, so it could end up being Okafor for Gortat straight up.

Actually, should the Wizards miss the playoffs yet again, it would be Okafor for Gortat, Shannon Brown, Kendall Marshall, and Malcolm Lee. From the little I understand of NBA's salary cap, the latter three had to be included to equalize the transfer because of the difference in Okafor and Gortat's salaries. I think. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you would accept two backup point guards and a backup shooting guard.

In the end, does this make the Wizards better for the long run? Probably not. Does it make them better in the short run? Possibly, since Okafor's health was a serious question. Still, they're not a good team. Looking at the projected win totals for teams in the Eastern conference, the Wizards look to be competing with the Raptors for the 8th seed (Miami, Chicago, Brooklyn, Indiana, Knicks, Cleveland, and Detroit would be seeds 1-7). The article at the bottom only has Miami, Detroit, and Indiana as possible under picks, so maybe you can include Detroit in the equation and the seven seed.

That's not a good place to be, especially with your draft pick exposed.


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24117589/win-totals-vs-over/under-odds-for-the-2013-2014-nba-season
The Wizards aren't keeping Marshall, Brown nor Lee. They're already gone, they were thrown in for salary cap equalizer a as you said.
I look at the Wizards roster now and believe they're gonna be in the 5/6 range, with one of the best backcourt a int he NBA.

If they don't opt to keep any of their 2011 draft picks, then they'll have $ to sign an max forward to go with:

Wall
Beal
Webster/Porter
Nene
Gortat (if he's re-signed after this year)

I think they can be a solid team and of they play their cards right, they're going to be solid in the future.


What teams are they going to be better than?


Top teams in the east:

1. Miami
2. Indiana
3. Chicago
4. New Jersey
5. New York
6.
7.
8.

????

I don't see any reason why they can't be six in the Eastern conference.


Atlanta?
they lost Josh Smith. They're a fringe playoff team now.

Quote:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24151066/cbssportscom-nba-predictions
Matt Moore has Cleveland, Detroit, and Washington all tied with 41 wins. Those three teams would be competing for the seventh and eighth seeds.
our front court is better than Cleveland's, our back court is better than Detroit's. And our backcourt is arguably better than Cleveland.

Quote:
Royce Young has Atlanta only winning 40 games, but Cleveland getting 43. Washington comes in at 41, for a seven seed.

Finally, Zach Harper projects 40 wins for Washington, 44 for Atlanta, and 37 for Cleveland. Again, a seven seed.

Yes, they're just three guys and its just their opinion. Fair enough. Of course, you thinking they'd get a sixth seed is yours.

Even if they did get a sixth seed, they're likely playing (and losing to) Brooklyn or the Knicks. If they end up as a seventh or eighth seed, they'll get steamrolled by either Chicago or Miami.

All in all, in thinking about it, I now think its a stupid trade for the long term health of this franchise for some short term plays. In other words, a Grunfeld move.
Its really not a stupid trade. They have a bunch of expiring contracts after this year or contracts with team options. All of the 2011 draft class might not be back. If they aren't, the team can afford a max contract forward to go with Wall, Beal, Porter/Webster and Gortat.

They traded Okafor's expiring/injured contract for a healthy Gortat with an expiring contract. Gortat is better than even a healthy Okafor on the offensive end and the team needs low post scoring more than anything. Wall and Beal will only get better this year and in the future.

The pick is also top 12 protected, if the wiz don't finish in the top 12, they keep the pick.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/wizards/2013/10/25/marcin-gortat-trade-washington-wizards-phoenix-suns-emeka-okafor/3206275/

Quote:
The Wizards gave up injured Emeka Okafor and that 2014 pick, which is protected should it land in the top 12

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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Seraphim made some sense, and Booker might be salvageable. Vesely and Singleton were disasters.

Both Gortat and Okafor's contracts expire after the year. Gortat's $7.7M is half of Okafor's ($14.5M). Gortat is also 29 to Okafor's 31, and apparently is much healthier. Apparently, the first round pick is top-12 protected, so it could end up being Okafor for Gortat straight up.

Actually, should the Wizards miss the playoffs yet again, it would be Okafor for Gortat, Shannon Brown, Kendall Marshall, and Malcolm Lee. From the little I understand of NBA's salary cap, the latter three had to be included to equalize the transfer because of the difference in Okafor and Gortat's salaries. I think. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you would accept two backup point guards and a backup shooting guard.

In the end, does this make the Wizards better for the long run? Probably not. Does it make them better in the short run? Possibly, since Okafor's health was a serious question. Still, they're not a good team. Looking at the projected win totals for teams in the Eastern conference, the Wizards look to be competing with the Raptors for the 8th seed (Miami, Chicago, Brooklyn, Indiana, Knicks, Cleveland, and Detroit would be seeds 1-7). The article at the bottom only has Miami, Detroit, and Indiana as possible under picks, so maybe you can include Detroit in the equation and the seven seed.

That's not a good place to be, especially with your draft pick exposed.


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24117589/win-totals-vs-over/under-odds-for-the-2013-2014-nba-season
The Wizards aren't keeping Marshall, Brown nor Lee. They're already gone, they were thrown in for salary cap equalizer a as you said.
I look at the Wizards roster now and believe they're gonna be in the 5/6 range, with one of the best backcourt a int he NBA.

If they don't opt to keep any of their 2011 draft picks, then they'll have $ to sign an max forward to go with:

Wall
Beal
Webster/Porter
Nene
Gortat (if he's re-signed after this year)

I think they can be a solid team and of they play their cards right, they're going to be solid in the future.


What teams are they going to be better than?


Top teams in the east:

1. Miami
2. Indiana
3. Chicago
4. New Jersey
5. New York
6.
7.
8.

????

I don't see any reason why they can't be six in the Eastern conference.


Atlanta?
they lost Josh Smith. They're a fringe playoff team now.

Quote:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24151066/cbssportscom-nba-predictions
Matt Moore has Cleveland, Detroit, and Washington all tied with 41 wins. Those three teams would be competing for the seventh and eighth seeds.
our front court is better than Cleveland's, our back court is better than Detroit's. And our backcourt is arguably better than Cleveland.

Quote:
Royce Young has Atlanta only winning 40 games, but Cleveland getting 43. Washington comes in at 41, for a seven seed.

Finally, Zach Harper projects 40 wins for Washington, 44 for Atlanta, and 37 for Cleveland. Again, a seven seed.

Yes, they're just three guys and its just their opinion. Fair enough. Of course, you thinking they'd get a sixth seed is yours.

Even if they did get a sixth seed, they're likely playing (and losing to) Brooklyn or the Knicks. If they end up as a seventh or eighth seed, they'll get steamrolled by either Chicago or Miami.

All in all, in thinking about it, I now think its a stupid trade for the long term health of this franchise for some short term plays. In other words, a Grunfeld move.
Its really not a stupid trade. They have a bunch of expiring contracts after this year or contracts with team options. All of the 2011 draft class might not be back. If they aren't, the team can afford a max contract forward to go with Wall, Beal, Porter/Webster and Gortat.

They traded Okafor's expiring/injured contract for a healthy Gortat with an expiring contract. Gortat is better than even a healthy Okafor on the offensive end and the team needs low post scoring more than anything. Wall and Beal will only get better this year and in the future.

The pick is also top 12 protected, if the wiz don't finish in the top 12, they keep the pick.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/wizards/2013/10/25/marcin-gortat-trade-washington-wizards-phoenix-suns-emeka-okafor/3206275/

Quote:
The Wizards gave up injured Emeka Okafor and that 2014 pick, which is protected should it land in the top 12
I agree with everything you said except this. Kyrie Irving is a better player than John Wall. And Beal isn't that much better than Waiters to overcome the difference.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyrie Irving is a better shooter then John Wall. They're equal as playmakers. John wall is a better finisher. John Wall is a better defender.

If I remember correctly, Wall finished the last month of the season scoring 25 or 26 points a game, 10 ast, and 5 Rebs better than Irving.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Kyrie Irving is a better shooter then John Wall. They're equal as playmakers. John wall is a better finisher. John Wall is a better defender.

If I remember correctly, Wall finished the last month of the season scoring 25 or 26 points a game, 10 ast, and 5 Rebs better than Irving.
I think you'll find most people disagree with you on this.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Kyrie Irving is a better shooter then John Wall. They're equal as playmakers. John wall is a better finisher. John Wall is a better defender.

If I remember correctly, Wall finished the last month of the season scoring 25 or 26 points a game, 10 ast, and 5 Rebs better than Irving.
I think you'll find most people disagree with you on this.
thats fine. They don't have to agree with me, but everyone acts like Irving is miles better than Wall because he's a better shooter, and I'm here to tell ya Wall is as good a playmaker and better at everything else.

Irving sucks on defense, he's not as good of a rebounder, he's not as good an athlete nor finisher around the rim, he's not as fast with the ball in his hand and they're a push as far as distributors with the ball. I also get the feeling that since Okafor had a stern talk with Wall last March, Wall is a better leader. It was after that game that Wall went on a tear, started playing like an all-star and had this team playing like a playoff team w/o Beal for March and April.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Atlanta?
they lost Josh Smith. They're a fringe playoff team now.


And the Wizards aren't?

Quote:
Quote:
Even if they did get a sixth seed, they're likely playing (and losing to) Brooklyn or the Knicks. If they end up as a seventh or eighth seed, they'll get steamrolled by either Chicago or Miami.

All in all, in thinking about it, I now think its a stupid trade for the long term health of this franchise for some short term plays. In other words, a Grunfeld move.
Its really not a stupid trade. They have a bunch of expiring contracts after this year or contracts with team options. All of the 2011 draft class might not be back. If they aren't, the team can afford a max contract forward to go with Wall, Beal, Porter/Webster and Gortat.

They traded Okafor's expiring/injured contract for a healthy Gortat with an expiring contract. Gortat is better than even a healthy Okafor on the offensive end and the team needs low post scoring more than anything. Wall and Beal will only get better this year and in the future.

The pick is also top 12 protected, if the wiz don't finish in the top 12, they keep the pick.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/wizards/2013/10/25/marcin-gortat-trade-washington-wizards-phoenix-suns-emeka-okafor/3206275/

Quote:
The Wizards gave up injured Emeka Okafor and that 2014 pick, which is protected should it land in the top 12


Yes ... which means it is possible for them to miss the playoffs and lose the pick if they end up as one of the two teams to just miss the playoffs. For the record, I had mentioned that it was only top-12 protected earlier.

Even if they make the playoffs, at best, by your own admission, they're a sixth seed. They don't have the firepower to go deep, so they'll end up around 16-20 land and ... poof. No draft pick. Yes, that would be at the back-half of the draft. However, by not having it, you lose draft night flexibility to move up or down.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Atlanta?
they lost Josh Smith. They're a fringe playoff team now.


And the Wizards aren't?

Quote:
Quote:
Even if they did get a sixth seed, they're likely playing (and losing to) Brooklyn or the Knicks. If they end up as a seventh or eighth seed, they'll get steamrolled by either Chicago or Miami.

All in all, in thinking about it, I now think its a stupid trade for the long term health of this franchise for some short term plays. In other words, a Grunfeld move.
Its really not a stupid trade. They have a bunch of expiring contracts after this year or contracts with team options. All of the 2011 draft class might not be back. If they aren't, the team can afford a max contract forward to go with Wall, Beal, Porter/Webster and Gortat.

They traded Okafor's expiring/injured contract for a healthy Gortat with an expiring contract. Gortat is better than even a healthy Okafor on the offensive end and the team needs low post scoring more than anything. Wall and Beal will only get better this year and in the future.

The pick is also top 12 protected, if the wiz don't finish in the top 12, they keep the pick.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/wizards/2013/10/25/marcin-gortat-trade-washington-wizards-phoenix-suns-emeka-okafor/3206275/

Quote:
The Wizards gave up injured Emeka Okafor and that 2014 pick, which is protected should it land in the top 12


Yes ... which means it is possible for them to miss the playoffs and lose the pick if they end up as one of the two teams to just miss the playoffs. For the record, I had mentioned that it was only top-12 protected earlier.

Even if they make the playoffs, at best, by your own admission, they're a sixth seed. They don't have the firepower to go deep, so they'll end up around 16-20 land and ... poof. No draft pick. Yes, that would be at the back-half of the draft. However, by not having it, you lose draft night flexibility to move up or down.
Fair enough Woz. I mean I could take your viewpoint and just give up on the franchise and then if they start winning be a fair weather fan - like a lot of people in DC are doing with the Nationals and they do with the Capitals. If they're winning, they love them, if they're not - they act like they don't even exist.

I choose to stay a loyal fan though and root for them no matter what, just like everyone in this forum is with the redskins, win or lose, I'm still a fan.

I think the moves they've done are the right ones the past few offseasons.

I think it they're heading in the right direction.

I think Beal and Wall will be one of, if not the best back court in the NBA within the next few years (some think they already are) and I think the front court will continue to develop and add talent.

You're right, they are a fringe playoff team. Anywhere from 6 to 8 if they make the playoffs or 9/10 if they just miss the playoffs.

No player who's drafted in the teens or 20s is going to come in and make a huge difference.

The Wizards are at a point now where they have their superstar, sidekick and some vet players around them.

When those vet players and the draft picks like Vesley and Singleton are gone next year or the year after, they can add another max player - a power forward or Center. When that happens, then be they would be considered one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. By that time hopefully Porter will be developed as their small forward also.

Yesterday I heard a Grunfield interview on 106.7 the fan and they asked him about Carmelo Anthony.

They asked why the team already declined to pick up Vesley and Singleton's options. Grunfield diplomatically said that they felt if they did that the players will work to get their extension.

Lavar asked about Carmelo though and Ernie changed his tune some. He said they couldn't talk about other teams players while they are under contract (which is true) but it was pretty evident that when Carmelo becomes a free agent again, Grunfield is setting us up to be a major player in those sweepstakes to go with Wall and Beal in the backcourt.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nail biter today between Ryan Kerrigan's Perdue Boilermakers and my Ohio
state buckeyes!

56-0 buckeyes! O-H-I-O!! Cool
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Atlanta?
they lost Josh Smith. They're a fringe playoff team now.


And the Wizards aren't?

Quote:
Quote:
Even if they did get a sixth seed, they're likely playing (and losing to) Brooklyn or the Knicks. If they end up as a seventh or eighth seed, they'll get steamrolled by either Chicago or Miami.

All in all, in thinking about it, I now think its a stupid trade for the long term health of this franchise for some short term plays. In other words, a Grunfeld move.
Its really not a stupid trade. They have a bunch of expiring contracts after this year or contracts with team options. All of the 2011 draft class might not be back. If they aren't, the team can afford a max contract forward to go with Wall, Beal, Porter/Webster and Gortat.

They traded Okafor's expiring/injured contract for a healthy Gortat with an expiring contract. Gortat is better than even a healthy Okafor on the offensive end and the team needs low post scoring more than anything. Wall and Beal will only get better this year and in the future.

The pick is also top 12 protected, if the wiz don't finish in the top 12, they keep the pick.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/wizards/2013/10/25/marcin-gortat-trade-washington-wizards-phoenix-suns-emeka-okafor/3206275/

Quote:
The Wizards gave up injured Emeka Okafor and that 2014 pick, which is protected should it land in the top 12


Yes ... which means it is possible for them to miss the playoffs and lose the pick if they end up as one of the two teams to just miss the playoffs. For the record, I had mentioned that it was only top-12 protected earlier.

Even if they make the playoffs, at best, by your own admission, they're a sixth seed. They don't have the firepower to go deep, so they'll end up around 16-20 land and ... poof. No draft pick. Yes, that would be at the back-half of the draft. However, by not having it, you lose draft night flexibility to move up or down.
Fair enough Woz. I mean I could take your viewpoint and just give up on the franchise and then if they start winning be a fair weather fan - like a lot of people in DC are doing with the Nationals and they do with the Capitals. If they're winning, they love them, if they're not - they act like they don't even exist.


Okay. I'm just explaining that you are once again getting your hopes up only to see them smashed.

One thing I can tell you: should the Wizards ever actually become a decent franchise, I won't be a fan because I'll be convinced its only a mirage.

Quote:
I choose to stay a loyal fan though and root for them no matter what, just like everyone in this forum is with the redskins, win or lose, I'm still a fan.


At least the Redskins have occasionally given you a reason to be a fan.

Quote:
I think the moves they've done are the right ones the past few offseasons.


Like drafting Vesely? Remember, that was in 2011. They have no one on the roster who has been with the team longer than that. They have no depth. Free agents rarely want to come to a franchise that has little to no chance of making the Championship.

Quote:
I think it they're heading in the right direction.


The Wizards have little to no chance right now, but had they accepted sucking for two or three years they could have been very competitive in 2015 when the Heat dissolves. Instead they made a move to fix themselves for the right now. In doing so, they gave up that option. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this upcoming draft is supposed to be pretty good.

Quote:
I think Beal and Wall will be one of, if not the best back court in the NBA within the next few years (some think they already are) and I think the front court will continue to develop and add talent.


Small Forward - Ariza's gone after this year, have two draft picks in Porter and Rice behind him. Have talent there, and they better hopes it develops.

Power Forward - Have Nene for two more years, but he's entering the twilight of his career (and at $13M a year for both years). They also have the even older Al Harrington (34 in February) for $7.4M this year and $7.6M next year. Vesely and Singleton are gonzo after this season (and good riddance). So, the only talent they have to develop is Trevor Booker. The good news is that Nene's hurt so Booker's getting playing time. The bad news is that Nene's probably their best front court player.

Center - Gortat's only signed through this year, and the only guy they have behind him is Seraphim, who would probably be better served as a power forward.

Quote:
You're right, they are a fringe playoff team. Anywhere from 6 to 8 if they make the playoffs or 9/10 if they just miss the playoffs.

No player who's drafted in the teens or 20s is going to come in and make a huge difference.


Hmm ... in 2011 alone, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Nikola Vucevic and Tobias Harris were drafted in the teens.

Quote:
The Wizards are at a point now where they have their superstar, sidekick and some vet players around them.

When those vet players and the draft picks like Vesley and Singleton are gone next year or the year after, they can add another max player - a power forward or Center. When that happens, then be they would be considered one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. By that time hopefully Porter will be developed as their small forward also.


Vesely and Singleton are gone next year since the Wizards declined their options.

As I showed before, they've got a lot of money already tied up at the power forward in guys who are 30+ ($20M) next year.

If they're adding another max player, they're likely over the luxury tax mark. They probably won't go max on a free agent because they'll lose Beal in a couple of years.

Quote:
Lavar asked about Carmelo though and Ernie changed his tune some. He said they couldn't talk about other teams players while they are under contract (which is true) but it was pretty evident that when Carmelo becomes a free agent again, Grunfield is setting us up to be a major player in those sweepstakes to go with Wall and Beal in the backcourt.


Because adding CarMElo would be such a good idea Rolling Eyes
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wall
Beal
Webster/Porter
Melo
Gortat

Is a pretty sick line up! IMO Melo can be our stretch 4, since that's the way the nba is going nowadays.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Wall
Beal
Webster/Porter
Melo
Gortat

Is a pretty sick line up! IMO Melo can be our stretch 4, since that's the way the nba is going nowadays.


Unless the Wizards want to go over the luxury tax line, it's not happening.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Wall
Beal
Webster/Porter
Melo
Gortat

Is a pretty sick line up! IMO Melo can be our stretch 4, since that's the way the nba is going nowadays.


Unless the Wizards want to go over the luxury tax line, it's not happening.
Ariza is gone after this year, Gortat can be re-signed for cheaper - his contact is up. Vesley, Singleton, Booker and Seraphin all gone means we have the #.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Wall
Beal
Webster/Porter
Melo
Gortat

Is a pretty sick line up! IMO Melo can be our stretch 4, since that's the way the nba is going nowadays.


Unless the Wizards want to go over the luxury tax line, it's not happening.
Ariza is gone after this year, Gortat can be re-signed for cheaper - his contact is up. Vesley, Singleton, Booker and Seraphin all gone means we have the #.


Interesting. That Wizards team can be legend... wait for it... DARY
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz, who did you want the Wiz to take instead of Vesely? That draft was pretty terrible. The only players I could see that would have been good picks would have been Kemba Walker, Klay Thompson or Kawhi Leonard. They weren't going to take Walker because they already had Wall, and Leonard was seen as a reach at the time of the draft when he went #15 overall. Klay Thompson would have been a good pick but he's not a superstar or anything. That draft was terrible.
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MikeT14


Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True story - I was clamoring for Leonard at that pick. He was exactly what I wanted and the team needed. I wanted to move down and take him or Thompson (as we desperately needed a 3 point shooter too). If we couldn't I would have taken Leonard at 6.
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