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| Total Votes : 11 |
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 35187
Location: Stand United
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 Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| jagsfan18 wrote: | He ran a poor route and slowed down at the end. Pretty much sums up his entire 2011 season.
Before the extension: 20 rec. 212 yards 1 TD 10.6 avg (4 weeks)
After the extension: 24 rec. 203 yards 0 TDs 8.45 avg. (11 weeks; he missed one game)
I see so much effort with those numbers.  |
He slowed down when the ball was out of reach, and he ran the route just fine. Here is the play. Does anyone else see lazy route running?
Full length stride. You don't have full strides when you're not running with effort.
And struggling and/or being frustrated doesn't necessarily mean a lack of effort or quitting. Did Fred Taylor quit on us in 2008?
Yes, Mike struggled, and struggled a lot. But at the same time, so did Marcedes Lewis, so did everyone in the passing game. Lewis played every bit as poorly as Thomas did receiving. Did he quit? Using the logic that his Thomas' stats showed that he quit, I guess Lewis' stats shows that he quit too, right? But at the same time, he effort in the run game and blocking every play would say he didn't quit.
Thomas didn't really start struggling until the the bye week, which coincidentally is when he started drawing #1 coverage, and when the pass blocking started falling apart. He stopped getting his deep routes, where the majority of those yards were coming from, and instead became the screen and reverse guy, and he also became the punt return guy again.
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 | samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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mikeyfarley
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 4316
Location: floride
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | mikeyfarley wrote: | | lol, what are you talking about? Lee Evans signed his current contract in 08, during a season he was starting and ended up with 1000 yards receiving that year. He was a starter every year in Buffalo. Then this past year he was traded to the Ravens to start. He had a lot of injury problems this year but that doesn't mean he had no shot at starting. Rookie WRs usually take a few years to reach their potential, Torrey Smith had to start because of Evans' injury. |
Evans played in 9 games this year, and started only twice. He produced like a number 3 each of the two seasons prior, and only has two 1000 yard seasons in his 8 year career.
| Quote: | | Driver signed his deal after an 09 season in which he was a 1000 yard WR as a starter. And he'll have to restructure his deal in order to still be a packer next year. You seriously think he would have gotten that type of money after he produced like a #3 last season? |
Are they paying that much for a guy who has been essentially a #3 since his contract was signed? Yes or no?
| Quote: | | How did they pay more for Nelson? Thomas got $4 mil more guaranteed, $2.5 mil more in signing bonus, $3.8 mil per year for 5 years compared to $3.5 mil a year for 4 years for Nelson. |
Nelson got a three year deal.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7052662/source-jordy-nelson-green-bay-packers-agree-3-year-1335m-extension
They're paying more for Nelson per year than Thomas. |
No they aren't. It could be a 3 year extension, but it's a total of 4 years.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4731/jordy-nelson
10/2/2011: Signed a four-year, $13.989 million contract. The deal contains $5 million guaranteed, including a $3.5 million signing bonus. Nelson is eligible for annual $250,000 workout bonuses and $200,000 in yearly per-game roster bonuses in seasons two through four. Another $1.65 million is available through incentives. 2011: $600,000 (+ $39,000 roster bonus), 2012: $1 million (+ $1.5 million roster bonus), 2013: $2.7 million, 2014: $2.55 million, 2015: Free Agent |
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jagsfan18
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 10334
Location: Ocala, FL/Johnstown, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | jagsfan18 wrote: | He ran a poor route and slowed down at the end. Pretty much sums up his entire 2011 season.
Before the extension: 20 rec. 212 yards 1 TD 10.6 avg (4 weeks)
After the extension: 24 rec. 203 yards 0 TDs 8.45 avg. (11 weeks; he missed one game)
I see so much effort with those numbers. |
He slowed down when the ball was out of reach, and he ran the route just fine. Here is the play. Does anyone else see lazy route running?
Full length stride. You don't have full strides when you're not running with effort.
And struggling and/or being frustrated doesn't necessarily mean a lack of effort or quitting. Did Fred Taylor quit on us in 2008?
Yes, Mike struggled, and struggled a lot. But at the same time, so did Marcedes Lewis, so did everyone in the passing game. Lewis played every bit as poorly as Thomas did receiving. Did he quit? Using the logic that his Thomas' stats showed that he quit, I guess Lewis' stats shows that he quit too, right? But at the same time, he effort in the run game and blocking every play would say he didn't quit.
Thomas didn't really start struggling until the the bye week, which coincidentally is when he started drawing #1 coverage, and when the pass blocking started falling apart. He stopped getting his deep routes, where the majority of those yards were coming from, and instead became the screen and reverse guy, and he also became the punt return guy again. |
Like I said we will not agree on this topic. Lewis was awful all year as well. Plus...on this play he didn't even stick his hand out or anything after the tip. He just watched it float and didn't even attempt to do anything after that. He just continued to slow down and just watches the ball.
Thomas just rubs me the wrong way with his attitude and immediately after his extension was signed it was like he didn't even care at all. He ran poor routes all year even if he was covered by the other teams #1...you could have still ran better routes. I saw multiple times he didn't even look for the ball until it was right on him...part of this could have been on Gabbert as well, but to a degree it has to be on Thomas as well.
You just have to look at those stats...how does he have basically the same stats before his extension in 4 games that he did after he signed it in 11 games?
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GoJags11
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 4388
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | jagsfan18 wrote: | He ran a poor route and slowed down at the end. Pretty much sums up his entire 2011 season.
Before the extension: 20 rec. 212 yards 1 TD 10.6 avg (4 weeks)
After the extension: 24 rec. 203 yards 0 TDs 8.45 avg. (11 weeks; he missed one game)
I see so much effort with those numbers. |
He slowed down when the ball was out of reach, and he ran the route just fine. Here is the play. Does anyone else see lazy route running?
Full length stride. You don't have full strides when you're not running with effort.
And struggling and/or being frustrated doesn't necessarily mean a lack of effort or quitting. Did Fred Taylor quit on us in 2008?
Yes, Mike struggled, and struggled a lot. But at the same time, so did Marcedes Lewis, so did everyone in the passing game. Lewis played every bit as poorly as Thomas did receiving. Did he quit? Using the logic that his Thomas' stats showed that he quit, I guess Lewis' stats shows that he quit too, right? But at the same time, he effort in the run game and blocking every play would say he didn't quit.
Thomas didn't really start struggling until the the bye week, which coincidentally is when he started drawing #1 coverage, and when the pass blocking started falling apart. He stopped getting his deep routes, where the majority of those yards were coming from, and instead became the screen and reverse guy, and he also became the punt return guy again. |
First off I'm tired of this argument over the play in the san diego games you guys obviously have different opinions on the play so stop arguing about it. Second, the topic i posted is about mike thomas, not any other wreciever on the team or marcedes lewis so don't try and compare marcedes and mike. Third, why does it matter that he started drawing number 1 coverage the guy is payed to produce in this league regardless of who is covering him. Fourth, what deep routes are you talking about, mike thomas has never been a deep wreciever threat, he has always been an intermediate route runner and screen type wreciever with an occasional deep ball reception.
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jagsfan18
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 10334
Location: Ocala, FL/Johnstown, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| GoJags11 wrote: | | First off I'm tired of this argument over the play in the san diego games you guys obviously have different opinions on the play so stop arguing about it. Second, the topic i posted is about mike thomas, not any other wreciever on the team or marcedes lewis so don't try and compare marcedes and mike. Third, why does it matter that he started drawing number 1 coverage the guy is payed to produce in this league regardless of who is covering him. Fourth, what deep routes are you talking about, mike thomas has never been a deep wreciever threat, he has always been an intermediate route runner and screen type wreciever with an occasional deep ball reception. |
Amen.
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 35187
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| GoJags11 wrote: | | First off I'm tired of this argument over the play in the san diego games you guys obviously have different opinions on the play so stop arguing about it. Second, the topic i posted is about mike thomas, not any other wreciever on the team or marcedes lewis so don't try and compare marcedes and mike. |
I didn't know you made the rules around here. Oh..yeah, you don't. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's a valid argument. Nobody is saying Lewis quit, and yet he played just as poorly. Why?
| Quote: | | Third, why does it matter that he started drawing number 1 coverage the guy is payed to produce in this league regardless of who is covering him. |
Okay. Cool story. But... you know... for a guy who is only talented enough to be a #3 or #2, drawing #1 coverage can greatly hamper his production
| Quote: | | Fourth, what deep routes are you talking about, mike thomas has never been a deep wreciever threat, he has always been an intermediate route runner and screen type wreciever with an occasional deep ball reception. |
You answered your own question, eh?
He stopped getting his occasional deep throws as the season went on. After week 6, which is really when there was evidence of him tailing off (not week 4), his longest catch was 16 yards.
Just for the sake of the point, if you remove those long catches (one from each game) from his stats the first 4 weeks, you get 84 yards per game. That is 21 yards per game. In the last 11 games, he had 18 yards per game. Those occasional long throws was the difference.
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 35187
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mikeyfarley wrote: | No they aren't. It could be a 3 year extension, but it's a total of 4 years.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4731/jordy-nelson
10/2/2011: Signed a four-year, $13.989 million contract. The deal contains $5 million guaranteed, including a $3.5 million signing bonus. Nelson is eligible for annual $250,000 workout bonuses and $200,000 in yearly per-game roster bonuses in seasons two through four. Another $1.65 million is available through incentives. 2011: $600,000 (+ $39,000 roster bonus), 2012: $1 million (+ $1.5 million roster bonus), 2013: $2.7 million, 2014: $2.55 million, 2015: Free Agent |
Lol. That 2011 money was on the books from his first contract. All of it. So let's just use that, because it makes it look like he was cheaper per year.
This is Nelson's rookie deal.
You can't just add in the last year of his rookie deal (and ignore the signing bonus for that year, to boot) to make him look cheaper.
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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jagsfan18
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 10334
Location: Ocala, FL/Johnstown, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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He signed his extension after week 4 and I said he started quitting after that. That's why I broke his stats down from there on.
The point is...I think he quit and you don't. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours. His stats show me he quit. When Jason Hill is putting up similar stats as you and gets cut...that tells you something.
And like GoJags11 said...he is paid to play against whoever he goes up against. I don't care if he is going up against the other teams #1. He gets paid too and should give some more effort.
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 35187
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jagsfan18 wrote: | | Plus...on this play he didn't even stick his hand out or anything after the tip. He just watched it float and didn't even attempt to do anything after that. He just continued to slow down and just watches the ball. |
What are you even talking about?
The ball is traveling left to right. Please, explain to me what sticking his hand out would do. The ball was 3 yards away from him when it got tipped, and traveling away from him.
Did you even watch the play?
| Quote: | | You just have to look at those stats... |
There are three types of lies; lies, damn dies and statistics. - Mark Twain
Statistics don't tell the whole story.
| Quote: | | how does he have basically the same stats before his extension in 4 games that he did after he signed it in 11 games? |
Didn't I already explain this in the post you quoted?
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
Last edited by iPwn on Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jagsfan18
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 10334
Location: Ocala, FL/Johnstown, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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My point is he just WATCHED the ball the whole time...he never made an attempt to do anything on that play. Nothing.
And stats tell a big part of it. It shows me his quit as soon as he was given a nice extension.
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 35187
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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What was he supposed to do after the tip? The ball is three yards away (2 yards upfield + the angle would be roughly three yards) from him.
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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JaguarCrazy2832
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 73424
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | jagsfan18 wrote: | | Plus...on this play he didn't even stick his hand out or anything after the tip. He just watched it float and didn't even attempt to do anything after that. He just continued to slow down and just watches the ball. |
What are you even talking about?
The ball is traveling left to right. Please, explain to me what sticking his hand out would do. The ball was 3 yards away from him when it got tipped, and traveling away from him.
Did you even watch the play?
| Quote: | | You just have to look at those stats... |
There are three types of lies; lies, damn dies and statistics. - Mark Twain
Statistics don't tell the whole story.
| Quote: | | how does he have basically the same stats before his extension in 4 games that he did after he signed it in 11 games? |
Didn't I already explain this in the post you quoted?
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I think at least puting your hands out, what could it hurt, maybe he will get in the line of vision and make the DB drop the ball/lose concentration
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jagsfan18
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 10334
Location: Ocala, FL/Johnstown, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | What was he supposed to do after the tip? The ball is three yards away (2 yards upfield + the angle would be roughly three yards) from him.
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If he didn't slow down he would have been able to do something.
You must have just bought a Thomas jersey or something to defend him like this. 
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 35187
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, when the ball was on it's way, even though it was way above his head, and several yards to the left, he did reach his arm out. The ball was just nowhere near him.
This is when he started slowing down, when he had no chance to make a play on the ball.
_________________
| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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mikeyfarley
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 4316
Location: floride
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | mikeyfarley wrote: | No they aren't. It could be a 3 year extension, but it's a total of 4 years.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4731/jordy-nelson
10/2/2011: Signed a four-year, $13.989 million contract. The deal contains $5 million guaranteed, including a $3.5 million signing bonus. Nelson is eligible for annual $250,000 workout bonuses and $200,000 in yearly per-game roster bonuses in seasons two through four. Another $1.65 million is available through incentives. 2011: $600,000 (+ $39,000 roster bonus), 2012: $1 million (+ $1.5 million roster bonus), 2013: $2.7 million, 2014: $2.55 million, 2015: Free Agent |
Lol. That 2011 money was on the books from his first contract. All of it. So let's just use that, because it makes it look like he was cheaper per year.
This is Nelson's rookie deal.
You can't just add in the last year of his rookie deal (and ignore the signing bonus for that year, to boot) to make him look cheaper. |
You're not making any sense. Every player that signs an extension has the remaining years count to the contract. Do you not know what an EXTENSION is? They are extending that original contract.
That ESPN article you referenced even said the contract runs out after the 2014 season. 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014. Not too hard to figure out if you know how to count. |
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