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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 13273
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Vernon Reply with quote

Many of you regulars know that I have criticized VD lately. Interestingly I heard one of the KNBR hosts ripping into him yesterday morning. He basically called him pretty close to a bust. For context, let's remember he was by far the highest pick ever for a TE. He was supposed to "revolutionize" the position. He may yet get better, but I'm guessing what we've seen is pretty much what he's going to be. And that, imho, is pretty ordinary. He has one big plus in his straight line speed, but his lack of agility, ability to find holes in a zone defense, ability to make guys miss after he catches the ball, and terrinble hands more than offset his one asset. Teams can regularly take him out of a game. There are other TEs out there that are much more difficult to cover. In the end the guy on the radio said that football insiders know that VD is one of the most over-rated guys on our team, and that if football execs were building a team they would take any of a dozen TEs before they'd take VD.

What do you think? Isn't a TE taken at pick 6, who was supposed to become the best TE of all time, who can do as few of the things you expect from a great TE a bust?
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EverythingSF


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd call him just as much a bust as Alex Smith. Both taken high and expecting a lot in return, but other than one great season from Vernon we haven't seen much to warrant him being anywhere near elite. I don't even care about him making guys miss, I really dislike the fact that he never runs people over. If you want to see a true elite TE go look at the game Gronkowski had yesterday, that's elite and something we've never truly seen out of VD
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverythingSF wrote:
I'd call him just as much a bust as Alex Smith. Both taken high and expecting a lot in return, but other than one great season from Vernon we haven't seen much to warrant him being anywhere near elite. I don't even care about him making guys miss, I really dislike the fact that he never runs people over. If you want to see a true elite TE go look at the game Gronkowski had yesterday, that's elite and something we've never truly seen out of VD


GronK? Absolutely. But, heck, I'd take their backup TE instead of VD!
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yayareaninerfan


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverythingSF wrote:
I'd call him just as much a bust as Alex Smith. Both taken high and expecting a lot in return, but other than one great season from Vernon we haven't seen much to warrant him being anywhere near elite. I don't even care about him making guys miss, I really dislike the fact that he never runs people over. If you want to see a true elite TE go look at the game Gronkowski had yesterday, that's elite and something we've never truly seen out of VD


I'd say he has had a much much larger impact than Alex Smith but agree that he has not lived up to the hype. He is the king of catching with his body and really has a hard time laterally. That being said he makes the defense respect him with his straight line speed. If they dont and just let him run that seam route he kills them. He is often covered using a big CB or a fast S which means one of our recievers or RB or H back is covered using a slower player such as a safety or LB. He carries much more value where you cant quantify his contribution in stats not to mention he has turned into a great great passblocker and leader
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EverythingSF


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
EverythingSF wrote:
I'd call him just as much a bust as Alex Smith. Both taken high and expecting a lot in return, but other than one great season from Vernon we haven't seen much to warrant him being anywhere near elite. I don't even care about him making guys miss, I really dislike the fact that he never runs people over. If you want to see a true elite TE go look at the game Gronkowski had yesterday, that's elite and something we've never truly seen out of VD


GronK? Absolutely. But, heck, I'd take their backup TE instead of VD!


Yeah Hernandez is pretty good to, I'm not sure if he would serve as a good enough blocker though....(just assuming because of his size)
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Niner_Finer23


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree any more with you. He plays way to soft and way to stiff, and one thing that ticks me off is his hands and that stupid hop step he does when attempting a catch.
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RedNGoldinSoCal


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Vernon Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Many of you regulars know that I have criticized VD lately. Interestingly I heard one of the KNBR hosts ripping into him yesterday morning. He basically called him pretty close to a bust. For context, let's remember he was by far the highest pick ever for a TE. He was supposed to "revolutionize" the position. He may yet get better, but I'm guessing what we've seen is pretty much what he's going to be. And that, imho, is pretty ordinary. He has one big plus in his straight line speed, but his lack of agility, ability to find holes in a zone defense, ability to make guys miss after he catches the ball, and terrinble hands more than offset his one asset. Teams can regularly take him out of a game. There are other TEs out there that are much more difficult to cover. In the end the guy on the radio said that football insiders know that VD is one of the most over-rated guys on our team, and that if football execs were building a team they would take any of a dozen TEs before they'd take VD.

What do you think? Isn't a TE taken at pick 6, who was supposed to become the best TE of all time, who can do as few of the things you expect from a great TE a bust?


Couldn't disagree with this more. The reason teams can "regularly take him out of a game" is because he's target number one for teams that are defending the pass against us. They shade the safety over him and double cover him on any route deeper than 15 yards. Teams saw what he can do when you don't scheme for him in 2009, and have been targeting him in the pass game ever since.

As far as making people miss...HE'S A TIGHT END!! If a tight end can make people miss regularly, he's playing the wrong position. Vernon should and does, use his size and speed to punish tacklers after the catch. Gronkowski doesn't make people miss either, he runs them over.

And speaking of Gronkowski, that comparison is flawed. That's like asking why Anquan Boldin doesn't do the things that Mike Wallace does. They're two different players with two different body types that lend them to two different roles in a given offense. Gronk is an oversized WR, which is perfect for the Pats spread attack, but he would be a two-down player in Harbaugh's system cause he'll never be able to block like Vernon does. Could Vernon's hands stand to improve? Absolutely. He's had some unforgiveable drops this year, but to say he is average is a knee-jerk reaction to a few bad games by our offense. Get some wide receivers that an opposing DC fears (Crabs will hopefully be that guy soon) and Vernon will magically be elite again.

For the record I think Harbaugh is misusing Vernon right now. I'd like to see Vernon used more like Delanie is used, moved all over the field and used to create mismatches. Vernon does everything a TE should do in our offense and does it at an above average or better level. Just because the guy doesn't live up to media and fan hype does not mean he's a bust.
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putmeNC0ach


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are crazy. Was it a high pick for a TE yes but this guy creates mismatches all over the field. I think the offense that Harbaugh runs just doesnt favor TE's all that much unfortunately. His hands can be a problem but his blocking is excellent and is YAC is very good. Get this guy the ball more Harbs.
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cHaInBrEaKeRiii


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

putmeNC0ach wrote:
You guys are crazy. Was it a high pick for a TE yes but this guy creates mismatches all over the field. I think the offense that Harbaugh runs just doesnt favor TE's all that much unfortunately. His hands can be a problem but his blocking is excellent and is YAC is very good. Get this guy the ball more Harbs.


This!! His hands are obviously not his stongrst attribute But he's a proven good TE in this league. He creates crazy mismatches on the field. His catching needs to improve but he's a def top 7 TE w/o a question.
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foreveryoung94


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vernon will be fine. The huge advantage that guys like gronk, gates,witten,Finley have are there teams WR options Guys like welker, Jackson, Bryant, and who ever you want to name from the packers. They are all great TEs but none of them are the biggest receiving threat on their own team. Edwards has been a huge let down and Crabs has only recently played pretty well and in the same span we have forgotten how to pass block and had to keep Vernon in a lot. Vernon still gets tons of attention from the defense and he helps our entire offense. If we bring in another big time receiving threat or Crabs,Williams,Morgan,Edwards develop Vernon will be right back at the too for receiving TEs in the league
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clarkfn2284


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VD is a freak, his all around physical attributes will allow him to make plays and he does present a plethora of mismatches on the field, but it is very possible that he has hit his ceiling because he is not a smart football player.

Tony G is the greatest TE of all time and he took his abilities and added a level of football smarts at the TE position that we may never see again.

I love VD when he is involved in the game, but I would never be against getting a truer version of a TE who could really become a safety valve for whoever the QB is ala Jake Ballard
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Gridirongreat#9


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTF? So I guess 2009 didnt happen. It must have been a figment of my imagination. Vernon has been kept in to block on 80% of all pass plays the last 5 games. Vernon has shown what he can do when he gets the opportunity to be involved in the pass game, for what ever reason it hasnt manifested this season. Even Delanie's numbers have been down the last few games. This fan base is quick to write off players as of late. Its starting to get annoying to be honest.
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scraly47*


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gridirongreat#9 wrote:
WTF? So I guess 2009 didnt happen. It must have been a figment of my imagination. Vernon has been kept in to block on 80% of all pass plays the last 5 games. Vernon has shown what he can do when he gets the opportunity to be involved in the pass game, for what ever reason it hasnt manifested this season. Even Delanie's numbers have been down the last few games. This fan base is quick to write off players as of late. Its starting to get annoying to be honest.


2010 was a good year for Vernon also. He didn't get 14 TDs, but the yardage was still there.
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Gridirongreat#9


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scraly47* wrote:
Gridirongreat#9 wrote:
WTF? So I guess 2009 didnt happen. It must have been a figment of my imagination. Vernon has been kept in to block on 80% of all pass plays the last 5 games. Vernon has shown what he can do when he gets the opportunity to be involved in the pass game, for what ever reason it hasnt manifested this season. Even Delanie's numbers have been down the last few games. This fan base is quick to write off players as of late. Its starting to get annoying to be honest.


2010 was a good year for Vernon also. He didn't get 14 TDs, but the yardage was still there.


Exactly. I honestly dont know what everybody expects from him. A 1500 yard season and 20 tds?
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This "mismatch" thing is grotesquely overestimated. Vernon's only capability is straight down the field (well it better be diagonally since he can't catch balls over his shoulder). There are lots of other TEs that can make hard cuts and leave defenders in their footsteps. They're a mismatch too. We've used Vernon long partly because of deficiencies in our WRs and partly because he's not very good short. There are tons of WRs who can get open deep easier than VD. I'd just as soon leave the long patterns to WRs and get a TE that can reliably get open and reliably catch balls for first downs and keep the chains moving.

It's ironic to me how many of you complain about our redzone offense or our third down offense and yet fail to make the connection that we are missing a big piece of many teams' arsenal - a reliable TE who can get open for those 5 and 10 yard catches when we need him to. Just watch what other TEs can do, and how they're used. Our offense would be way better with many of them than it is with VD in there.
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