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MARIO MANGELINI
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 895
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 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: Why it's so hard to justify who blows the coverage |
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Now I was just reading all these people talking about how Richard Sherman got abused by Roddy White of the Falcons, when I came across this article:
http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/1/23/3901210/nfl-playoffs-nfc-divisional-round-seahawks-atlanta
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However, on the backend, Kam Chancellor vacates his deep middle responsibility as he gets caught reading Matt Ryan's eyes. He abandons Sherman for help of Browner on Douglas, but Sherman expects some help to the inside (in fact, Roddy White catches the ball to Browner's side field).
Sherman is beat a bit on the play as White cuts inside at the last moment, but this is Kam Chancellor's fault. As White slow-plays his route, jogging at first, then turning on the jets, Kam's back is completely turned to White. Once Kam sees the ball thrown deep middle, he's too late in reacting. |
Now Sherman got beat a bit on this play, but clearly his fault and he got abused? Umm, no.
Then there's this play at the end of the game, where most Seahawk fans blamed Browner:
| Quote: | | In this situation, with 25 seconds remaining, Trufant shouldn't have stopped his back pedal on the short outside zone until the ball comes out. This would force the Falcons to dump underneath to Gonzo at about the 35-yard line, and use up valuable seconds. Instead, for some unknown reason, Trufant jumps the underneath route by Gonzalez, and leaves a huge gap between he and Brandon Browner, who is still back-pedaling, waiting for the ball. This allows the perfect route by Harry Douglas to get tucked in behind Trufant and Browner at the 50, which Bobby Wagner follows but is slow to contest. |
Not Browners fault at all, but stupid freaking Trufant. Cut him soon Pete.
Anyways, this thread is not meant to be a Seahawk thread. I just only saw Seahawk examples. This thread is meant to say it is hard to assign blame to who blows the coverage, because in these two above representations, Sherman and Browner looked like they screwed up, while it was really Trufant and Kam.
Any examples of a mishap that you have seen that is constantly blamed on the wrong player? |
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SnA ExclusiVe
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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Location: Spokane, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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How can anyone say the first play on the comeback drive was on Trufant? Go back and watch the tape, you can clearly see Bobby Wagner running from the right side of the field to the left side, and the pass is completed right in front of him. It was man coverage (you can tell because watch the guy spying the RB and then blitzing), and Wagner blew the coverage.
I could agree with the Sherman play though. There should've been safety help and there wasn't.
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| Leon Sandcastle wrote: | | Torrey Smith is a deep threat, he will never be a top-10 WR...he doesn't posses the raw athleticism that Dez does...sorry |
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charles shelton
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 1666
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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simple answer is that a lot of the coverages & subsequent zone assignments are not undertood by the majority of people watching. I fall into this category. Unless something is rather obvious, like a cb getting beat by a double move or just outrun or something, I usually don't know where the breakdown in coverage happened.
-charles |
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MARIO MANGELINI
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | How can anyone say the first play on the comeback drive was on Trufant? Go back and watch the tape, you can clearly see Bobby Wagner running from the right side of the field to the left side, and the pass is completed right in front of him. It was man coverage (you can tell because watch the guy spying the RB and then blitzing), and Wagner blew the coverage.
I could agree with the Sherman play though. There should've been safety help and there wasn't. |
Did you take a look at the pictures? I looked at those and it seemed to be trufant being dumb and jumping gonzos route. |
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eagles101
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 5989
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| MARIO MANGELINI wrote: | | SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | How can anyone say the first play on the comeback drive was on Trufant? Go back and watch the tape, you can clearly see Bobby Wagner running from the right side of the field to the left side, and the pass is completed right in front of him. It was man coverage (you can tell because watch the guy spying the RB and then blitzing), and Wagner blew the coverage.
I could agree with the Sherman play though. There should've been safety help and there wasn't. |
Did you take a look at the pictures? I looked at those and it seemed to be trufant being dumb and jumping gonzos route. |
so instead of "jumping" that route....he should have double teamed douglas and let gonzo get a huge gain? or just stopped in no mans land no guarding douglas but not let letting gonzo gain big yards? because that was his two options.
but original question.....its hard to assign blame because you dont know the scheme or assignments they are playing.
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| THE PACK MAN wrote: |
Im not a homer, I said we would lose a game last year when all the analysts predicted us to go 16-0 halfway through the year. |
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 32766
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Why it's so hard to justify who blows the coverage |
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| MARIO MANGELINI wrote: | Now I was just reading all these people talking about how Richard Sherman got abused by Roddy White of the Falcons, when I came across this article:
http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/1/23/3901210/nfl-playoffs-nfc-divisional-round-seahawks-atlanta
| Quote: |
However, on the backend, Kam Chancellor vacates his deep middle responsibility as he gets caught reading Matt Ryan's eyes. He abandons Sherman for help of Browner on Douglas, but Sherman expects some help to the inside (in fact, Roddy White catches the ball to Browner's side field).
Sherman is beat a bit on the play as White cuts inside at the last moment, but this is Kam Chancellor's fault. As White slow-plays his route, jogging at first, then turning on the jets, Kam's back is completely turned to White. Once Kam sees the ball thrown deep middle, he's too late in reacting. |
Now Sherman got beat a bit on this play, but clearly his fault and he got abused? Umm, no. |
He got beat pretty badly and fell down. Chancellor was playing single high and Ryan held him with his eyes. Chancellor overreacted some and did give up too much to the middle but Roddy White burnt Sherman with that same move in the 1st quarter.
On the play in the 1st quarter, Sherman did not have safety help and White torched him with the same move where he changed speeds and then broke on a deep route to the seam. Ryan underthrew it which allowed Sherman to recover, deflect the pass and look good rather than hit White in stride for a TD.
So it was payback to an extent by White. But yea, the safety did screw up. But like I said, Sherman got burnt badly earlier on a similar play.
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SnA ExclusiVe
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 10672
Location: Spokane, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| MARIO MANGELINI wrote: | | SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | How can anyone say the first play on the comeback drive was on Trufant? Go back and watch the tape, you can clearly see Bobby Wagner running from the right side of the field to the left side, and the pass is completed right in front of him. It was man coverage (you can tell because watch the guy spying the RB and then blitzing), and Wagner blew the coverage.
I could agree with the Sherman play though. There should've been safety help and there wasn't. |
Did you take a look at the pictures? I looked at those and it seemed to be trufant being dumb and jumping gonzos route. |
I watched the play, looked at the pics and everything. It was man coverage. Players don't spy people and then blitz in zone coverage.
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| Leon Sandcastle wrote: | | Torrey Smith is a deep threat, he will never be a top-10 WR...he doesn't posses the raw athleticism that Dez does...sorry |
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JaguarCrazy2832
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 73945
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe the Legion of Boom, should pay closer attention before taking on a sweet nickname
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MARIO MANGELINI
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 895
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| eagles101 wrote: | | MARIO MANGELINI wrote: | | SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | How can anyone say the first play on the comeback drive was on Trufant? Go back and watch the tape, you can clearly see Bobby Wagner running from the right side of the field to the left side, and the pass is completed right in front of him. It was man coverage (you can tell because watch the guy spying the RB and then blitzing), and Wagner blew the coverage.
I could agree with the Sherman play though. There should've been safety help and there wasn't. |
Did you take a look at the pictures? I looked at those and it seemed to be trufant being dumb and jumping gonzos route. |
so instead of "jumping" that route....he should have double teamed douglas and let gonzo get a huge gain? or just stopped in no mans land no guarding douglas but not let letting gonzo gain big yards? because that was his two options.
but original question.....its hard to assign blame because you dont know the scheme or assignments they are playing. |
First of all, Gonzo wouldn't have gotten big yards on this play. Instead he would've gotten maybe 10, and wasted more time to boot. So yes the better situation is forcing it to gonzo.
| SnA ExclusiVe wrote: |
I watched the play, looked at the pics and everything. It was man coverage. Players don't spy people and then blitz in zone coverage. |
It's more to the point where Wagner on Douglas is a mismatch, so you can't expect Wagner to win that, and Trufant should've stayed back to make:
1. Gonzalez look like the better option.
2. To make sure Ryan couldn't throw a low, fast ball (or else Tru would pick it off, bat it away) and had to throw it higher and slower so Browner could have more recovery time, same with Wagner.
Anyways, it all adds to the argument about how it's hard to figure out who to blame.
| JaguarCrazy2832 wrote: | | Maybe the Legion of Boom, should pay closer attention before taking on a sweet nickname |
Not like everyone's perfect in football dude. And for the record, one of the guys who screwed up was Trufant, who should be cut and is not part of the Legion of Boom. And Chancellor is the weakest link in the Legion of Boom, I really don't blame Sherman much for the play with White, he shut him down well the rest of the day, but he clearly expected help to the inside. |
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SnA ExclusiVe
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 10672
Location: Spokane, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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@JaguarCrazy: Not sure what you mean. They're the biggest and best secondary in the NFL...
@Mario: There is no debate. Watch the play and you'll see Wagner blow the coverage. Yes, it's a mismatch but he still should've been there. You're suggesting that Trufant should've made an incredibly intelligent play and since he didn't, it's his fault but no blame is being placed on the guy who was actually responsible for covering the WR? Nah, that's not how it works. Trufant played his coverage, covered Gonzalez, and Wagner left Douglas wide open. End of story.
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| Leon Sandcastle wrote: | | Torrey Smith is a deep threat, he will never be a top-10 WR...he doesn't posses the raw athleticism that Dez does...sorry |
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MARIO MANGELINI
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Posts: 895
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | @JaguarCrazy: Not sure what you mean. They're the biggest and best secondary in the NFL...
@Mario: There is no debate. Watch the play and you'll see Wagner blow the coverage. Yes, it's a mismatch but he still should've been there. You're suggesting that Trufant should've made an incredibly intelligent play and since he didn't, it's his fault but no blame is being placed on the guy who was actually responsible for covering the WR? Nah, that's not how it works. Trufant played his coverage, covered Gonzalez, and Wagner left Douglas wide open. End of story. |
I just am not sure why he jumped the underneath route. The Falcons needed yards and they needed them fast. Why cover the 7 yard out then? |
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SnA ExclusiVe
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 10672
Location: Spokane, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| MARIO MANGELINI wrote: | | SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | @JaguarCrazy: Not sure what you mean. They're the biggest and best secondary in the NFL...
@Mario: There is no debate. Watch the play and you'll see Wagner blow the coverage. Yes, it's a mismatch but he still should've been there. You're suggesting that Trufant should've made an incredibly intelligent play and since he didn't, it's his fault but no blame is being placed on the guy who was actually responsible for covering the WR? Nah, that's not how it works. Trufant played his coverage, covered Gonzalez, and Wagner left Douglas wide open. End of story. |
I just am not sure why he jumped the underneath route. The Falcons needed yards and they needed them fast. Why cover the 7 yard out then? |
Because it's man coverage, that's what you do. Coaches preach all the time, "do your job". Trufant did his job - what you're expecting him to do was someone else's job, not his. Trufant's job was to cover Gonzalez, and he did that. Wagner's job was to cover Douglas, he failed.
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| Leon Sandcastle wrote: | | Torrey Smith is a deep threat, he will never be a top-10 WR...he doesn't posses the raw athleticism that Dez does...sorry |
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BlaqOptic
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 26247
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Because only a few people actually understand how to disect coverage. Then, you pile on top of that that only 12 people actually know what is supposed to happen ideally if all 11 guys on the field execute perfectly and the 11 guys opposite of them don't run their play design to perfection.
For instance, on the Sherman/Brown play... One could say Browner "blew" the coverage but a more trained eye would say he saw the crossing pattern and sat on that. If he doesn't sit on the crossing pattern it goes for a 20+ yard completion... Not as bad as a TD but offenses are designed to do so from time to time where a DB has to make a read and whichever way he reads the Quarterback goes to the other receiver de facto.
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| sayheykid wrote: | | Eksynyt wrote: | | Some people on here brag about the Seahawks having a defense...where is it? |
It's having a hard time concentrating. |
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Harper41
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 12366
Location: Roll Tide Country
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | How can anyone say the first play on the comeback drive was on Trufant? Go back and watch the tape, you can clearly see Bobby Wagner running from the right side of the field to the left side, and the pass is completed right in front of him. It was man coverage (you can tell because watch the guy spying the RB and then blitzing), and Wagner blew the coverage.
I could agree with the Sherman play though. There should've been safety help and there wasn't. |
That doesn't mean it was man coverage, it could've been but you could have a LB spying the RB and have everyone else in zone.
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 | Mossburg wrote: | | Wade's mid range game went from poopsauce to boobsauce overnight. |
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Harper41
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 12366
Location: Roll Tide Country
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | | MARIO MANGELINI wrote: | | SnA ExclusiVe wrote: | @JaguarCrazy: Not sure what you mean. They're the biggest and best secondary in the NFL...
@Mario: There is no debate. Watch the play and you'll see Wagner blow the coverage. Yes, it's a mismatch but he still should've been there. You're suggesting that Trufant should've made an incredibly intelligent play and since he didn't, it's his fault but no blame is being placed on the guy who was actually responsible for covering the WR? Nah, that's not how it works. Trufant played his coverage, covered Gonzalez, and Wagner left Douglas wide open. End of story. |
I just am not sure why he jumped the underneath route. The Falcons needed yards and they needed them fast. Why cover the 7 yard out then? |
Because it's man coverage, that's what you do. Coaches preach all the time, "do your job". Trufant did his job - what you're expecting him to do was someone else's job, not his. Trufant's job was to cover Gonzalez, and he did that. Wagner's job was to cover Douglas, he failed. |
No, Carrol fails for thinking Wagner could cover Harry Douglas in man coverage.
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| Mossburg wrote: | | Wade's mid range game went from poopsauce to boobsauce overnight. |
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