Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

John Randle Super Bowl Era Defensive Players?
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> NFL Comparisons
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
x0x


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 15470
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:34 pm    Post subject: John Randle Super Bowl Era Defensive Players? Reply with quote

Where does he rank for you?

I said Top Ten to a friend of mine and he called me a homer.

I think LT, White, Singletery, DT and Lott are ahead of him.

Probably some of the 70s Steelers too.

But he doesn't get his due, guy was fierce, I think he should have made more all-pro teams really.
_________________
Legends Never Die. They Breathe Through The New Generation.
100 Greatest Quarterbacks of All Time
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JDLefebvre


Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 25106
Location: Midway PA /Clovis NM
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SO hard to rank 45 years of football especially when your talking DTs, DEs, 3-4 OLBs, and 4-3 ILB, CBs and safeties, etc.... so many players, so many different positions and impact....

anyone could make a case for 10 players ahead of Randall and it would probably be hard to argue, but its about impossible to really rank all these guys from differemt eras!

Tough question.
_________________
Stay low boys.... keep those feet moving!


thanks El ramster

KCCO!!!
oderint dum metuant
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SuperKerfuz


Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 645
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's probably top 10 or top 5 DT of all time. I don't necessarily see him as a top 10 defensive player of all time though.
_________________

Credits to mike23md for the sick sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vikingsrule


Moderator
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 48288
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 10 DT all time. He was a great pass rusher, no doubt about that. It amazing how many consecutive 10 sack season Randle had. Id easily take Randle over Warren Sapp, much more dominant for a longer stretch. Its a shame he never got a ring.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Its A Sabotage


Moderator
Joined: 14 May 2010
Posts: 35669
Location: Do. Your. Job.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperKerfuz wrote:
He's probably top 10 or top 5 DT of all time. I don't necessarily see him as a top 10 defensive player of all time though.


Agreed, and the only DT I can think off the top of my head to make it to the top-10 all time is Warren Sapp, no one killed it quite like him.
_________________

#JDI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sandiegoraider1


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 2198
Location: San Diego
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
SuperKerfuz wrote:
He's probably top 10 or top 5 DT of all time. I don't necessarily see him as a top 10 defensive player of all time though.


Agreed, and the only DT I can think off the top of my head to make it to the top-10 all time is Warren Sapp, no one killed it quite like him.



...? John Randle had 137.5 sacks in 13 years. Sapp... 96.5 in 12 years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
N. Collins Fan


Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 6921
Location: Twin Cities
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Top 10 DT all time. He was a great pass rusher, no doubt about that. It amazing how many consecutive 10 sack season Randle had. Id easily take Randle over Warren Sapp, much more dominant for a longer stretch. Its a shame he never got a ring.


I was really pulling for him in Seattle. Laughing

Great player, though, no doubt. He single-handedly beat the Packers' offense plenty of times.
_________________


Read more. Post less.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mse326


Moderator
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 16363
Location: mike23md on the sig
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 10 Defensive player? Really?

Here are just DT's that are clearly better (not necessarilly in order)
1. Alan Page
2. Mean Joe Greene
3. Merlin Olsen
4. Bob Lilly
5. Randy White
6. Buck Buchanan

Then there are others that can be argued.

Defensive players ever he might be at the bottom of my top 50
_________________

#JDI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vikingsrule


Moderator
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 48288
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
SuperKerfuz wrote:
He's probably top 10 or top 5 DT of all time. I don't necessarily see him as a top 10 defensive player of all time though.


Agreed, and the only DT I can think off the top of my head to make it to the top-10 all time is Warren Sapp, no one killed it quite like him.


I dont see an argument for Sapp over Randle. Sapp was a great player obviously, but his hype seems to make people think he was actually better than Randle. How is this so. Both players were both known to be players that wreak havoc by sacking the QB and getting in the backfield, and providing pressure. That was both players game.

Randle has 40 some sacks more than Sapp, and many more 10+ sack seasons.

Sapp got alot more media recognition, and did win a superowl, so I believe he gets unfairly hyped due to that compared to Randle.

There wasnt a more disruptive DT in recent time than John Randle.

In 1991, Randle had 9.5 sacks. From 1992 until 1999 Randle had 10+ sacks each season. In 2000 Randle had 8 sacks, followed by 11 in 2011. That is production we will likely not see from a DT in awhile.

Not bad from an undrafted 6-1 290 pound DT.

Did you know, that the Vikings almost drafted Warren Sapp back in the day, and passed due to character concerns. They chose DE Derrick Alexander instead. Imagine that, Rande and Sapp together.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
x0x


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 15470
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Top 10 Defensive player? Really?

Here are just DT's that are clearly better (not necessarilly in order)
1. Alan Page
2. Mean Joe Greene
3. Merlin Olsen
4. Bob Lilly
5. Randy White
6. Buck Buchanan

Then there are others that can be argued.

Defensive players ever he might be at the bottom of my top 50


If you read the OP, Olsen is out.

Lily and Buchanan are also in my opinion mid-range for the era describe.

It really starts with 1970 onwards.

I can't chime in on White, Greene and Page personally, though I've seen plenty of tape, I'd say you could put Randle above White.


To me, I think I'd slip Randle at #10, I'll have to give it some more thought.
_________________
Legends Never Die. They Breathe Through The New Generation.
100 Greatest Quarterbacks of All Time
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mse326


Moderator
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 16363
Location: mike23md on the sig
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x0x wrote:
mse326 wrote:
Top 10 Defensive player? Really?

Here are just DT's that are clearly better (not necessarilly in order)
1. Alan Page
2. Mean Joe Greene
3. Merlin Olsen
4. Bob Lilly
5. Randy White
6. Buck Buchanan

Then there are others that can be argued.

Defensive players ever he might be at the bottom of my top 50


If you read the OP, Olsen is out.

Lily and Buchanan are also in my opinion mid-range for the era describe.

It really starts with 1970 onwards.

I can't chime in on White, Greene and Page personally, though I've seen plenty of tape, I'd say you could put Randle above White.


To me, I think I'd slip Randle at #10, I'll have to give it some more thought.


Superbowl era started in 1966.

Olsen played until 1976 and had 5 1st team all pros and 10 pro bowls from that point on.

Lily and Buchanan too played the large majority of their career post 1966.

They are superbowl era players.

I'd love to see your top 10 and how Randle can possibly be in there. There is no way you can legit do that.
_________________

#JDI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Waldo


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 22679
Location: The ATL
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the thing with all the great defensive lineman of that era. Were the really that much better than players of today?

There were a lot of things going on in the late 60's and 70's that gives players from that era some particular advantages.

Defensive lines got big faster than offensive lines. By the 80's this had largely self corrected. The DL-OL situ of the 70's was nothing like today where the average OL is bigger than even big DL. These guys weren't facing 310 lb C's and 330 lb G's.

Noone wants to talk about it, but that immediately predates performance enhancing drugs being considered bad (once they were considered bad, it took a while for actual testing to begin, by the early 80's they were consdered bad, but it wasn't until 1987 that tests began). Use in football, especailly among defensive lineman, was known to be widespread through the late 60's and 70's.

Tactically over and undershifting the front in 4-3 defenses for better pass rushing angles, and 3-4 defenses were entirely new concepts. Even your basic 4-3 defense was still in its infancy relatively speaking (without the shifts).

Those guys were set up for success, set up to dominate in ways players nowadays just aren't.

It is entirely the Don Hutson argument, was he actually that good, or was his advantage because he was the first modern style receiver and route runner so great that it makes him look like a better player than he really was.

Don't get me wrong, Randle surely benefitted heavily from the Miami 4-3 concepts of the D he played in (the undersized, fast, aggresive 1 gap 4-3 defense was a new concept in the early 90's at the pro level), but this was not nearly as big of a mismatch as what the DL players from the 60's and 70's benefitted from (the first 3 tech pass rush DT's had a huge advantage, OL's didn't know how to deal with them at all).

That era's best defensive lineman are pumped up a little too much relative to other eras.
_________________

Title Town USA wrote:
Waldo was right!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vikingsrule


Moderator
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 48288
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waldo wrote:
Here's the thing with all the great defensive lineman of that era. Were the really that much better than players of today?

There were a lot of things going on in the late 60's and 70's that gives players from that era some particular advantages.

Defensive lines got big faster than offensive lines. By the 80's this had largely self corrected. The DL-OL situ of the 70's was nothing like today where the average OL is bigger than even big DL. These guys weren't facing 310 lb C's and 330 lb G's.

Noone wants to talk about it, but that immediately predates performance enhancing drugs being considered bad (once they were considered bad, it took a while for actual testing to begin, by the early 80's they were consdered bad, but it wasn't until 1987 that tests began). Use in football, especailly among defensive lineman, was known to be widespread through the late 60's and 70's.

Tactically over and undershifting the front in 4-3 defenses for better pass rushing angles, and 3-4 defenses were entirely new concepts. Even your basic 4-3 defense was still in its infancy relatively speaking (without the shifts).

Those guys were set up for success, set up to dominate in ways players nowadays just aren't.

It is entirely the Don Hutson argument, was he actually that good, or was his advantage because he was the first modern style receiver and route runner so great that it makes him look like a better player than he really was.

Don't get me wrong, Randle surely benefitted heavily from the Miami 4-3 concepts of the D he played in (the undersized, fast, aggresive 1 gap 4-3 defense was a new concept in the early 90's at the pro level), but this was not nearly as big of a mismatch as what the DL players from the 60's and 70's benefitted from (the first 3 tech pass rush DT's had a huge advantage, OL's didn't know how to deal with them at all).

That era's best defensive lineman are pumped up a little too much relative to other eras.


What is impressive about Randle, however, is he was able to do it over several different periods in the 1990s in which major changes did occur. Randle was exceptional from the early 1990s to the early 2000s. He was great during that time frame, and was the best in the league at what he was asked to do. A lot of MN's defense at the time of Randle's success was derived from the Tampa 2 (Tony Dungy was the DC in the mid 90s), however, he was still successful in other defensive schemes when Dungy did leave.

Randle simply is a great player, and was able to do it against large Offensive Lineman that are present in todays NFL and the NFL of Randle's time.

The great DTs of the 60s, I do question sometimes. the Offensive Lineman during that time frame were so much smaller, and much easier to use brute strength against.

I think Randle showed throughout his career that he was a very scheme diverse player, he was just that good. Post Dungy, Randle was still a force.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
indifference


Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 1936
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Its A Sabotage wrote:
SuperKerfuz wrote:
He's probably top 10 or top 5 DT of all time. I don't necessarily see him as a top 10 defensive player of all time though.


Agreed, and the only DT I can think off the top of my head to make it to the top-10 all time is Warren Sapp, no one killed it quite like him.


I dont see an argument for Sapp over Randle. Sapp was a great player obviously, but his hype seems to make people think he was actually better than Randle. How is this so. Both players were both known to be players that wreak havoc by sacking the QB and getting in the backfield, and providing pressure. That was both players game.

Randle has 40 some sacks more than Sapp, and many more 10+ sack seasons.

Sapp got alot more media recognition, and did win a superowl, so I believe he gets unfairly hyped due to that compared to Randle.

There wasnt a more disruptive DT in recent time than John Randle.

In 1991, Randle had 9.5 sacks. From 1992 until 1999 Randle had 10+ sacks each season. In 2000 Randle had 8 sacks, followed by 11 in 2011. That is production we will likely not see from a DT in awhile.

Not bad from an undrafted 6-1 290 pound DT.

Did you know, that the Vikings almost drafted Warren Sapp back in the day, and passed due to character concerns. They chose DE Derrick Alexander instead. Imagine that, Rande and Sapp together.
Warren Sapp gets the DESERVED hype because he won defensive player of the year in 1999. That's impressive for a defensive tackle. Sapp will also be recognized for helping turning around a franchise that was pretty much bottom feeders for decades into super bowl contenders/winners. You know what's also ironic, Randle tried out for the Buccaneers and didn't make the team. Tampa could've had Randle, Dotson, and Sapp in the 90's. Randle was the better player b/c he was more consistent throughout his career but Sapp turned around a franchise and his sack numbers started dipping once Tampa signed Simeon Rice in 2001. Rice in his time was one of the best pass rushing DE's so it wasn't enough plays for each of them to get double digit sacks.
Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
x0x


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 15470
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waldo wrote:
Here's the thing with all the great defensive lineman of that era. Were the really that much better than players of today?

There were a lot of things going on in the late 60's and 70's that gives players from that era some particular advantages.

Defensive lines got big faster than offensive lines. By the 80's this had largely self corrected. The DL-OL situ of the 70's was nothing like today where the average OL is bigger than even big DL. These guys weren't facing 310 lb C's and 330 lb G's.

Noone wants to talk about it, but that immediately predates performance enhancing drugs being considered bad (once they were considered bad, it took a while for actual testing to begin, by the early 80's they were consdered bad, but it wasn't until 1987 that tests began). Use in football, especailly among defensive lineman, was known to be widespread through the late 60's and 70's.

Tactically over and undershifting the front in 4-3 defenses for better pass rushing angles, and 3-4 defenses were entirely new concepts. Even your basic 4-3 defense was still in its infancy relatively speaking (without the shifts).

Those guys were set up for success, set up to dominate in ways players nowadays just aren't.

It is entirely the Don Hutson argument, was he actually that good, or was his advantage because he was the first modern style receiver and route runner so great that it makes him look like a better player than he really was.

Don't get me wrong, Randle surely benefitted heavily from the Miami 4-3 concepts of the D he played in (the undersized, fast, aggresive 1 gap 4-3 defense was a new concept in the early 90's at the pro level), but this was not nearly as big of a mismatch as what the DL players from the 60's and 70's benefitted from (the first 3 tech pass rush DT's had a huge advantage, OL's didn't know how to deal with them at all).

That era's best defensive lineman are pumped up a little too much relative to other eras.



Glad somebody said it outside of me. Alzado

The NFL has had one of the best anti-steroid policies since the late 80s as I recall.

And Super Bowl era technically or not I'm not going to group the 14 game and expansion era the same as today.

To me Randle is better than Merlin Olsen, remember Olsen was on a defense with Deacon Jones.

The Vikings also did not have Doleman paired with Randle like some assume, at least not for a long time.
_________________
Legends Never Die. They Breathe Through The New Generation.
100 Greatest Quarterbacks of All Time
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> NFL Comparisons All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group