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FF's "Official" Top 100 Players List(2011) Debate
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RashaanSalaami


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think Donnie Jones is a close 3rd. Both are very similar punters in similar situations.

Over the last 2 years:
-Both play in punter-friendly environments
-Both have had a TD returned against them
-Both have a virtually equal TB% (8.0% to 7.6%)
-Both allow the same exact return yards per punt (3.8 to 3.8)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in Gross (46.5 to 46.1)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in NET (41.1 to 40.8)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20:TB (5.5:1 to 4.7:1)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20% (43.8% to 35.9%)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in FC% (21.9% to 17.9%)
-Jones has the advantage in Unreturned % (48.2% to 53.3%)
-McBriar's side concedes 7.3 yards per return, while Jones' concedes 8.1

I would say McBriar has the advantage given the last two years. When you look at it, McBriar also has to play 2 games in Philly and NYG per year, while Jones gets SF, SEA, and ARZ (no real weather challenges). I don't see where Jones gets the nod ahead of McBriar, but I think he has a good case for #3.


If you want to throw Lechler into this, here's how they finish by stat over the past 2 seasons:

AVG: Lechler, McBriar, Jones
NET: Lechler, McBriar, Jones
I20:TB: McBriar, Jones, Lechler
TB%: Jones, McBriar, Lechler
I20%: McBriar, Jones, Lechler
FC%: McBriar, Jones, Lechler
UR%: Jones, McBriar, Lechler
Ret Yards/PR: McBriar, Lechler, Jones
Ret Yards/Punt: McBriar, Jones, Lechler

Lechler finished at the bottom in a number of categories, but he does have the decided advantage in the most important numbers, NET punting. He's averaged 42.5, while McBriar has 41.1, with Jones at 40.8.

I don't think Lechler is WAY ahead of the competition, though he is still the best punter, but I think the gap between he and McBriar is somewhat narrow, or at least equal to the gap between McBriar and #3.


Last edited by RashaanSalaami on Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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drd23


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
drd23 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Yea, a season. We could also talk about his 3 straight years of 40+ net punting average or the fact that his worst year in punting average in the last 4 years is 45.5 yards per punt in a year where he played threw a leg injury. We could also mention that he has 66 Punts downed in the 20 and only 14 touchbacks in the last 2 years. Lets also mention the fact that he has a career average of 45.5 yards per punt and a career net average of 39.3 yards per punt.

You do realise that Yards/Punt isnt exactly the greatest way to measure a punter, right? Punters on teams with a good offense get punished by it because they generally have a shorter distance to punt because the offense is more likely to gain yardage.

A lack of touchbacks are # of punts inside the 20 (and even the 10) are a better way of objectively measuring punters.

And Sam Koch has a resume at least as an impressive (if not more) as Donnie Jones Wink (Career net average of 39.7 yds/punt, and 59 punts inside the 20 and just 9 touchbacks in the last 2 years)


That's a better way? That stat is similarly flawed because a Punter on a good team will have more opportunities to drop punts in the 20 because his team is able to move the ball more effectively.

However, while we're talking about Koch, your numbers are way off. He has 65 punts inside the 20 the last 2 years but also only a 38.3 career net average. Koch also has never averaged more than 45.0 yards per punt nor has he broken 40.0 net yards per punt in his career.

I think Donnie Jones proved in 2010 that he isn't just a Punter who can rack up big punt average numbers on a bad team. While playing injured, he managed to average 45.5 yards per punt and 40.0 net yards per punt but even more impressively, he dropped 32 punts inside the 20 with only 4 touchbacks.

Yes they are also subject to how well the offense moves the ball but they are more directly related to actual talent than distance is imo. Also, I value directional punting and accuracy over distance so I do think they are a better measure than simple yards per punt.

My bad on the number of touchbacks, I added them wrong. As for the career net yards, it comes from his ESPN player page so if it's wrong, then blame them Wink

That said, I personally don't think any punter should be on this list as in general their effect on the game isnt great enough imo
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think Donnie Jones is a close 3rd. Both are very similar punters in similar situations.

Over the last 2 years:
-Both play in punter-friendly environments
-Both have had a TD returned against them
-Both have a virtually equal TB% (8.0% to 7.6%)
-Both allow the same exact return yards per punt (3.8 to 3.Cool
-McBriar has a slight advantage in Gross (46.5 to 46.1)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in NET (41.1 to 40.Cool
-McBriar has an advantage in I20:TB (5.5:1 to 4.7:1)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20% (43.8% to 35.9%)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in FC% (21.9% to 17.9%)
-Jones has the advantage in Unreturned % (48.2% to 53.3%)
-McBriar's side concedes 7.3 yards per return, while Jones' concedes 8.1

I would say McBriar has the advantage given the last two years. When you look at it, McBriar also has to play 2 games in Philly and NYG per year, while Jones gets SF, SEA, and ARZ (no real weather challenges). I don't see where Jones gets the nod ahead of McBriar, but I think he has a good case for #3.


When you expand it to 4 years(Jones length of time on the Rams), though, Jones has him better by a solid margin in terms of yards per punt and net yards per punt. As for the TD given up:
http://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/game?id=55049&play=1335&icampaign=GR_Free_Clip_nfl
That's a pretty darn good punt, our special teams just fell down on the job...literally.

Oh and DRD, I agree with the last point. I didn't vote for any Punters but if we're on the topic, I might as well try to get my boy some respect. Razz
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RAVINGMADD


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 2515
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Yea, a season. We could also talk about his 3 straight years of 40+ net punting average or the fact that his worst year in punting average in the last 4 years is 45.5 yards per punt in a year where he played threw a leg injury. We could also mention that he has 66 Punts downed in the 20 and only 14 touchbacks in the last 2 years. Lets also mention the fact that he has a career average of 45.5 yards per punt and a career net average of 39.3 yards per punt.

You do realise that Yards/Punt isnt exactly the greatest way to measure a punter, right? Punters on teams with a good offense get punished by it because they generally have a shorter distance to punt because the offense is more likely to gain yardage.

A lack of touchbacks are # of punts inside the 20 (and even the 10) are a better way of objectively measuring punters.

And Sam Koch has a resume at least as an impressive (if not more) as Donnie Jones Wink (Career net average of 39.7 yds/punt, and 59 punts inside the 20 and just 9 touchbacks in the last 2 years)

Thank god finally someone gives Koch some credit. Guy puts the ball inside the 20 as good as any punter in the league.
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RashaanSalaami


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think Donnie Jones is a close 3rd. Both are very similar punters in similar situations.

Over the last 2 years:
-Both play in punter-friendly environments
-Both have had a TD returned against them
-Both have a virtually equal TB% (8.0% to 7.6%)
-Both allow the same exact return yards per punt (3.8 to 3.8)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in Gross (46.5 to 46.1)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in NET (41.1 to 40.8)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20:TB (5.5:1 to 4.7:1)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20% (43.8% to 35.9%)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in FC% (21.9% to 17.9%)
-Jones has the advantage in Unreturned % (48.2% to 53.3%)
-McBriar's side concedes 7.3 yards per return, while Jones' concedes 8.1

I would say McBriar has the advantage given the last two years. When you look at it, McBriar also has to play 2 games in Philly and NYG per year, while Jones gets SF, SEA, and ARZ (no real weather challenges). I don't see where Jones gets the nod ahead of McBriar, but I think he has a good case for #3.


When you expand it to 4 years(Jones length of time on the Rams), though, Jones has him better by a solid margin in terms of yards per punt and net yards per punt. As for the TD given up:
http://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/game?id=55049&play=1335&icampaign=GR_Free_Clip_nfl
That's a pretty darn good punt, our special teams just fell down on the job...literally.

Oh and DRD, I agree with the last point. I didn't vote for any Punters but if we're on the topic, I might as well try to get my boy some respect. :P


I really didn't take a 4 year window approach to this list. This is the best players for 2011. Stuff accomplished outside of the last 2 years really had a minimal impact on my voting. Stuff from 2 years ago wasn't that important to me either, but does help prove one-year wonders and non-one year wonders. Over the past 2 seasons, McBriar's been a better punter. I mean if you expand to Randy Moss's last 4 seasons, he should have had a spot inside the top 100 (maybe not the best example, but I can't think of a better declining player off the top of my head).
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WaterBear56


Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 3166
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look for Brandon Fields to be in the conversation soon.
Last year: 73 punts, 46.2 avg, 69 long, 31 inside 20.
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jrry32


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Posts: 49567
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think Donnie Jones is a close 3rd. Both are very similar punters in similar situations.

Over the last 2 years:
-Both play in punter-friendly environments
-Both have had a TD returned against them
-Both have a virtually equal TB% (8.0% to 7.6%)
-Both allow the same exact return yards per punt (3.8 to 3.Cool
-McBriar has a slight advantage in Gross (46.5 to 46.1)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in NET (41.1 to 40.Cool
-McBriar has an advantage in I20:TB (5.5:1 to 4.7:1)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20% (43.8% to 35.9%)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in FC% (21.9% to 17.9%)
-Jones has the advantage in Unreturned % (48.2% to 53.3%)
-McBriar's side concedes 7.3 yards per return, while Jones' concedes 8.1

I would say McBriar has the advantage given the last two years. When you look at it, McBriar also has to play 2 games in Philly and NYG per year, while Jones gets SF, SEA, and ARZ (no real weather challenges). I don't see where Jones gets the nod ahead of McBriar, but I think he has a good case for #3.


When you expand it to 4 years(Jones length of time on the Rams), though, Jones has him better by a solid margin in terms of yards per punt and net yards per punt. As for the TD given up:
http://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/game?id=55049&play=1335&icampaign=GR_Free_Clip_nfl
That's a pretty darn good punt, our special teams just fell down on the job...literally.

Oh and DRD, I agree with the last point. I didn't vote for any Punters but if we're on the topic, I might as well try to get my boy some respect. Razz


I really didn't take a 4 year window approach to this list. This is the best players for 2011. Stuff accomplished outside of the last 2 years really had a minimal impact on my voting. Stuff from 2 years ago wasn't that important to me either, but does help prove one-year wonders and non-one year wonders. Over the past 2 seasons, McBriar's been a better punter. I mean if you expand to Randy Moss's last 4 seasons, he should have had a spot inside the top 100 (maybe not the best example, but I can't think of a better declining player off the top of my head).


We're talking about Punters, not a WR. Jones is not anywhere close to declining and neither is McBriar. Jones is a year younger than McBriar.
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Harper41 wrote:
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RashaanSalaami


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think Donnie Jones is a close 3rd. Both are very similar punters in similar situations.

Over the last 2 years:
-Both play in punter-friendly environments
-Both have had a TD returned against them
-Both have a virtually equal TB% (8.0% to 7.6%)
-Both allow the same exact return yards per punt (3.8 to 3.Cool
-McBriar has a slight advantage in Gross (46.5 to 46.1)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in NET (41.1 to 40.Cool
-McBriar has an advantage in I20:TB (5.5:1 to 4.7:1)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20% (43.8% to 35.9%)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in FC% (21.9% to 17.9%)
-Jones has the advantage in Unreturned % (48.2% to 53.3%)
-McBriar's side concedes 7.3 yards per return, while Jones' concedes 8.1

I would say McBriar has the advantage given the last two years. When you look at it, McBriar also has to play 2 games in Philly and NYG per year, while Jones gets SF, SEA, and ARZ (no real weather challenges). I don't see where Jones gets the nod ahead of McBriar, but I think he has a good case for #3.


When you expand it to 4 years(Jones length of time on the Rams), though, Jones has him better by a solid margin in terms of yards per punt and net yards per punt. As for the TD given up:
http://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/game?id=55049&play=1335&icampaign=GR_Free_Clip_nfl
That's a pretty darn good punt, our special teams just fell down on the job...literally.

Oh and DRD, I agree with the last point. I didn't vote for any Punters but if we're on the topic, I might as well try to get my boy some respect. Razz


I really didn't take a 4 year window approach to this list. This is the best players for 2011. Stuff accomplished outside of the last 2 years really had a minimal impact on my voting. Stuff from 2 years ago wasn't that important to me either, but does help prove one-year wonders and non-one year wonders. Over the past 2 seasons, McBriar's been a better punter. I mean if you expand to Randy Moss's last 4 seasons, he should have had a spot inside the top 100 (maybe not the best example, but I can't think of a better declining player off the top of my head).


We're talking about Punters, not a WR. Jones is not anywhere close to declining and neither is McBriar. Jones is a year younger than McBriar.


I understand that, but for what other player did you take a 4-year window into account? It doesn't make much sense to me to do that for punters. I realize neither are declining, but for the most recent seasons, McBriar has been better. I don't understand how it makes sense to talk about something a player did 4 years ago to determine how good they are today.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 49567
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think Donnie Jones is a close 3rd. Both are very similar punters in similar situations.

Over the last 2 years:
-Both play in punter-friendly environments
-Both have had a TD returned against them
-Both have a virtually equal TB% (8.0% to 7.6%)
-Both allow the same exact return yards per punt (3.8 to 3.Cool
-McBriar has a slight advantage in Gross (46.5 to 46.1)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in NET (41.1 to 40.Cool
-McBriar has an advantage in I20:TB (5.5:1 to 4.7:1)
-McBriar has an advantage in I20% (43.8% to 35.9%)
-McBriar has a slight advantage in FC% (21.9% to 17.9%)
-Jones has the advantage in Unreturned % (48.2% to 53.3%)
-McBriar's side concedes 7.3 yards per return, while Jones' concedes 8.1

I would say McBriar has the advantage given the last two years. When you look at it, McBriar also has to play 2 games in Philly and NYG per year, while Jones gets SF, SEA, and ARZ (no real weather challenges). I don't see where Jones gets the nod ahead of McBriar, but I think he has a good case for #3.


When you expand it to 4 years(Jones length of time on the Rams), though, Jones has him better by a solid margin in terms of yards per punt and net yards per punt. As for the TD given up:
http://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/game?id=55049&play=1335&icampaign=GR_Free_Clip_nfl
That's a pretty darn good punt, our special teams just fell down on the job...literally.

Oh and DRD, I agree with the last point. I didn't vote for any Punters but if we're on the topic, I might as well try to get my boy some respect. Razz


I really didn't take a 4 year window approach to this list. This is the best players for 2011. Stuff accomplished outside of the last 2 years really had a minimal impact on my voting. Stuff from 2 years ago wasn't that important to me either, but does help prove one-year wonders and non-one year wonders. Over the past 2 seasons, McBriar's been a better punter. I mean if you expand to Randy Moss's last 4 seasons, he should have had a spot inside the top 100 (maybe not the best example, but I can't think of a better declining player off the top of my head).


We're talking about Punters, not a WR. Jones is not anywhere close to declining and neither is McBriar. Jones is a year younger than McBriar.


I understand that, but for what other player did you take a 4-year window into account? It doesn't make much sense to me to do that for punters. I realize neither are declining, but for the most recent seasons, McBriar has been better. I don't understand how it makes sense to talk about something a player did 4 years ago to determine how good they are today.


I think the numbers are close enough to warrant more consideration especially when Donnie Jones averaged 50.0 yards per punt in a FULL season only 3 years ago.
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Jakuvious


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:

I think the numbers are close enough to warrant more consideration especially when Donnie Jones averaged 50.0 yards per punt in a FULL season only 3 years ago.


If he hasn't done it in the past two years, we can't consider that the norm of who he is right now.

Just 3 years ago, Tony Gonzalez topped 95 catches, 1000 yards, and 10 TDs. That's great, but if he didn't do it last year, that wasn't how he was playing in the season in which this is rating players. Even if Donnie Jones CAN still average 50 yards per punt, that's not what he's doing in the time that we're discussing, so it has to be considered irrelevant.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
jrry32 wrote:

I think the numbers are close enough to warrant more consideration especially when Donnie Jones averaged 50.0 yards per punt in a FULL season only 3 years ago.


If he hasn't done it in the past two years, we can't consider that the norm of who he is right now.

Just 3 years ago, Tony Gonzalez topped 95 catches, 1000 yards, and 10 TDs. That's great, but if he didn't do it last year, that wasn't how he was playing in the season in which this is rating players. Even if Donnie Jones CAN still average 50 yards per punt, that's not what he's doing in the time that we're discussing, so it has to be considered irrelevant.


It's not irrelevant though. Lets say we're comparing Gonzalez to TE X and Gonzalez and TE X have numbers that are pretty darn close the last couple of years, I'd certainly think Gonzalez having one of the most dominant years ever in terms of (insert receiving yards or catches here) at his position only 3 years ago to be very relevant.
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RashaanSalaami


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
jrry32 wrote:

I think the numbers are close enough to warrant more consideration especially when Donnie Jones averaged 50.0 yards per punt in a FULL season only 3 years ago.


If he hasn't done it in the past two years, we can't consider that the norm of who he is right now.

Just 3 years ago, Tony Gonzalez topped 95 catches, 1000 yards, and 10 TDs. That's great, but if he didn't do it last year, that wasn't how he was playing in the season in which this is rating players. Even if Donnie Jones CAN still average 50 yards per punt, that's not what he's doing in the time that we're discussing, so it has to be considered irrelevant.


It's not irrelevant though. Lets say we're comparing Gonzalez to TE X and Gonzalez and TE X have numbers that are pretty darn close the last couple of years, I'd certainly think Gonzalez having one of the most dominant years ever in terms of (insert receiving yards or catches here) at his position only 3 years ago to be very relevant.


With how quickly players can become irrelevant, I don't think it holds much merit to discuss something from 3 years ago when McBriar has CLEARLY outpunted Jones over the past 2 seasons. I'm not saying the difference is HUGE, but it clearly exists.

I deleted the numbers from my spreadsheet so I don't feel like recalculating everything, but for argument's sake, if you just included Jones' 2008 season into the mix, McBriar would still have the better NET, I20:TB ratio, I20%, FC%, yards per return, and EASILY the better return yards per punt.

I'm sorry, but McBriar is CLEARLY the better punter here. The numbers all point that way. The only thing really in your favor is Gross Avg. and that's really about as effective as measuring linebackers with tackles or receivers with yards per catch.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waldo wrote:
rabbisson wrote:
I had Mike Wallace on my list. I honestly thought that I would be higher on him than most, but he has absolutely devastating ability.


I had him high on my list (#51, my #5 WR).

I gave overall higher grades to players that have shown special traits on Sundays.

Wallace is one of the most difficult to cover WR's in pro football and the most feared deep threat in the game today.


so you think wallace is better than nicks?
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="jrry32"]
DKTurtle51 wrote:


Ok,

3. Troy Polomalu
19. Ed Reed

I think Reed is a better player and at the very least this gap should be much closer.


Reed isn't the better player and imo, Polamalu has a bigger overall impact on his defense. Reed is an amazing centerfielder and he largely takes away the deep ball but you can avoid Reed and run an effective gameplan. It's incredibly difficult to avoid Polamalu and run an effective gameplan. We're talking about the #3 best vs. the #19, both are rated as elite.

Quote:
9. Haloti Ngata
30. Kevin Williams
36. Casey Hampton
37. Ndamukong Suh
44. BJ Raji
84. Darnell Dockett
92. Kyle Williams

I do not see Ngata as being that much better than the second best DT in the league, though I could see how his versatility would propel him. I would put Suh ahead of Hampton and I'm sure if the Lions had a representative this list would reflect that as they were separated by 1 point. I think Dockett and Williams are on par with these other guys and depending on how yo weight the past, Williams could be much higher. His 2010 season was elite.


Ngata is by far the best DT in the NFL. Suh is already too high and should not be ahead of Hampton. Dockett wasn't that great last year, he was very good but he seemed to be going through the motions at times. As a whole, Campbell and Dockett were disappointing imo last year. Kyle Williams is getting VERY overrated based on a great year because he was on a bad defense. Being rated #92 is quite fair.


Quote:
18. Jared Allen
23. Julius Peppers
29. Trent Cole
38. Justin Tuck
40. Dwight Freeney

I think Peppers is the best 43 DE in the league. He is not the best pure pass rusher, but he is so complete and does everything at a high level. He is still a great pass rusher, but his elite ability to defend the run and even drop into coverage separates him. He belongs much higher on the list IMO, certainly ahead of Allen.

Cole seems very overrated on this list. He is a very good player and very complete but not 29th in the league good. I beleive Tuck is just as good in every aspect of the game as Cole though and is more of a playmaker. I also think Freeney should be ahead of both of them because he is the best pass rushing 43 DE in the league and better against the run than he is given credit for.


IMO Peppers isn't a dominant enough pass rusher to surpass Allen who before this year was a great run stopper. In 2010, Allen was good overall and was great down the stretch.

Trent Cole is not overrated, he's one of the most disruptive pass rushers and one of the best run stoppers. He's so complete and so good. If anything, he should be put more on the level of Peppers and Allen. Freeney was rated too high, imo. He's a poor run stopper and while he's an elite and disruptive pass rusher, that's only half the game.
[quote]

tuck is better than cole, if anything he should be put just below peppers imo. am i the only one to think tuck is better than allen?
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steferfootballd


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Also underrated: Chris Massey (Locker on the left). His longsnaps are spot on every single time. I think he missed one snap his rookie year or something.

If positional bias isn't taken into account, perhaps he is top 100? Razz
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