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FF's "Official" Top 100 Players List(2011) Debate
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
khodder wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
Jonathan Vilma (70-80)
David Harris (70-80)
Karlos Dansby (90-100)


What do you feel seperates Vilma, and in particular Harris from Dansby.

See my above post for my "tangible" arguments for Dansby.


He doesn't seem to be the type that excels at anything. He is very good at several different aspects, but he doesn't jump out at you. Vilma is excellent in coverage, Harris is excellent as a "thumper", so the fact that they are more specialized is what gives them a slight distinction to me. I definitely think all 3 should be on the list though.


I mentioned that exact thing in my above post. Dansby may not excel in coverage like Vilma, but he is a far superior pass rusher and run defender. He may not be the run thumper that Harris is, but he is far superior in coverage.


Yeah, I agree with that. I've just always preferred specialization, rather than a "jack of all trades".
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Kiei7


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh Freeman and Matt Ryan are not better than Eli Manning or Matt Schaub.

Mike Wallace is not better than Miles Austin or Hakeem Nicks.

The "Con" that a lot of Austin's success is based on the flanker screen just isn't true.

I can't see an argument for any specialist (P, K, PR/KR). No matter how good they are at their position.
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Fired-Up wrote:

Yes, but he won the super bowl.

Seriously I've never seen anyone as wrong as you all the time. The fact that you have knocked Skip Bayless off that perch has brought great shame upon this website.
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swoosh


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol at Darren McFadden making the list over Michael Turner.

Last three seasons...

Turner: 888 carries, 3,941 yards, 4.4 yards per carry, 39 TD
McFadden: 440 carries, 2,013 yards, 4.6 yards per carry, 12 TD

Turner has been a workhorse and a touchdown machine for the last three seasons with Atlanta. McFadden has carried the ball just 113, 104, and 223 times respectively. His highest rushing total in a season was 1,157, and his highest rushing touchdown total in a season was seven (both last season). McFadden is the better receiver out of the backfield, but that does not even come remotely close to making up the production on the ground.

McFadden may be the more talented RB, but to have him over Turner is a joke.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiei7 wrote:
Josh Freeman and Matt Ryan are not better than Eli Manning or Matt Schaub.


I think Freeman got a boost from me, and personally it was just my love of the Freefro that got him on there, I think as a player he has a huge career in front of him.

I agree that Schaub should be on there over those two, but I would take Ryan over Eli Manning. Turnovers.
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WaterBear56


Joined: 26 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
71. Cameron Wake, 3-4 Outside Linebacker, MIA: 139 Points[Bracket 61-80]
Pros:
- From a “big play” point of view no 3-4 outside linebacker outperformed Wake last season as he totaled 14 sacks, 12 run stuffs, three forced fumbles and four passes defensed.
- Arguably the league’s best pass rusher last season totaling 38 quarterback hurries and 15 quarterback hits.

Cons:
- Wake is a late bloomer who only has one season of success to his name.
- Although he was absolutely dominant in that phase he was one-dimensional last season.


1. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/08/22/idp-lb/ Only 2 years in the league. His first he had the highest pressure per rush percentage in the league garnering 6 sacks. His second he led the league in sacks for about 4 weeks and finished 3rd in sacks. He also led pass rushers with 12 stuffs.

2. How is he one-dimensional when he is a force at rushing the passer and stopping the run? He is also not a liability in coverage. DeMarcus Ware rushed the passer 90% of the time, yet you only said that he SEEMED one-dimensional. We all know that he's not but a point must be made.

Quote:
70. Brandon Marshall, Wide Receiver, MIA: 140 Points[Bracket 61-80]
Pros:
- Averages 98 receptions, 1,181 yards and six touchdowns a season over the past four years despite four different quarterbacks throwing him the ball in three different systems.
- The most physically imposing specimen at the wide receiver position currently.

Cons:
- Marshall has been the least inefficient receiver with elite production for the majority of his career.
- Has the worst hands of the elite wide receivers dropping numerous catchable balls.


1. How can he be the least efficient with elite production? If he has elite production then he must have elite efficiency.

2. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr He has a higher catch rate than both Fitz and Megatron.(One thing in common: All bad QB's!)

Quote:
22. Jake Long, Left Tackle, MIA: 337 Points[Bracket 21-40]
Pros:
- Prior to his shoulder injury he was far and away the most dominant tackle in the league last season in both phases of the game.
- Long held Jason Babin, James Harrison, Julius Peppers(2009) and Tamba Hali all without sacks and held Jared Allen and Dwight Freeney to two combined sacks in the past three years.
- He has allowed a mere 13 sacks in his three year career.

Cons:
- Has faced an easier/less frequent slate of elite pass rushers than Joe Thomas and hasn’t fared as well against them.
- Has had issues with elite defensive ends(Mario Williams, John Abraham, and Julius Peppers) having multi-sack games against him.


1. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/13/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tackles/ Looking at last season, the Dolphins and Browns only faced 6 different teams. More then half of a season's games they played the same pass rushers and Long still had the better efficiency rating including when he got injured in week 10.

2. No excuses for Williams or Abraham but he played Peppers in his first game after the injury to his shoulder. It was his worst game of the year.


All in all, based on last year, I only think Wake should be a bit higher. I love the rankings, just not the descriptions.
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GaTechRavens


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was the one who pushed the Lechler bandwagon forward. I had him 9th in my list.

Anyway, since I can name naames now, I'm absolutely stunned that Ryan Clady never received a single vote.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swoosh wrote:
Lol at Darren McFadden making the list over Michael Turner.

Last three seasons...

Turner: 888 carries, 3,941 yards, 4.4 yards per carry, 39 TD
McFadden: 440 carries, 2,013 yards, 4.6 yards per carry, 12 TD

Turner has been a workhorse and a touchdown machine for the last three seasons with Atlanta. McFadden has carried the ball just 113, 104, and 223 times respectively. His highest rushing total in a season was 1,157, and his highest rushing touchdown total in a season was seven (both last season). McFadden is the better receiver out of the backfield, but that does not even come remotely close to making up the production on the ground.

McFadden may be the more talented RB, but to have him over Turner is a joke.


My guess is this is the top 100 players coming into the 2011 season. So, part of it is a projection. So maybe, just maybe, people are projecting a 29 year old RB who had close to 300 carries/year for the last 3 seasons and who doesn't shy away from contact to start declining a bit.
I didn't vote for this though, so take it for what it's worth.
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ShimSham


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously I don't agree with every placement, but I really like the list overall. Nice job Blaq and others on adding the pros and cons to the guys. (sorry I haven't had the time to contribute in that way)

E-Man wrote:
no surprise here...

No surprise that you made a pout-post either. Laughing
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ShimSham


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
Okay, here are my thoughts. Color coded, with a range I think certain players should be in.

Should Be Higher
Should Be Lower
Should Not Be on the List

In a countdown where the lower the number means the player is better, saying a player should be higher or lower can be very confusing.
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mse326


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShimSham wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
Okay, here are my thoughts. Color coded, with a range I think certain players should be in.

Should Be Higher
Should Be Lower
Should Not Be on the List

In a countdown where the lower the number means the player is better, saying a player should be higher or lower can be very confusing.


But when he also gives the range he thinks they should be in that kind of negates the confusion doesn't it?
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WaterBear56 wrote:

1. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/08/22/idp-lb/ Only 2 years in the league. His first he had the highest pressure per rush percentage in the league garnering 6 sacks. His second he led the league in sacks for about 4 weeks and finished 3rd in sacks. He also led pass rushers with 12 stuffs.

2. How is he one-dimensional when he is a force at rushing the passer and stopping the run? He is also not a liability in coverage. DeMarcus Ware rushed the passer 90% of the time, yet you only said that he SEEMED one-dimensional. We all know that he's not but a point must be made.


Except ProFootballFocus was not used in ANY of these stats especially pressures because they attribute way too many pressures. According to FO Wake had 8 Pressures and 4 Hits in '09.

Because prior to 2008 Ware was in coverage often. We haven't seen Wake do it. And as for the run stuffing thing when you're often crashing the line of scrimmage you can still get stuff totals easily.

WaterBear56 wrote:

1. How can he be the least efficient with elite production? If he has elite production then he must have elite efficiency.

2. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr He has a higher catch rate than both Fitz and Megatron.(One thing in common: All bad QB's!)


That's ONE season.... From 07-09 he was thrown at more than EVERY WR by over 40 passes and yet lacked the receiving yards and touchdowns that the other elites had.


WaterBear56 wrote:

1. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/13/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tackles/ Looking at last season, the Dolphins and Browns only faced 6 different teams. More then half of a season's games they played the same pass rushers and Long still had the better efficiency rating including when he got injured in week 10.

2. No excuses for Williams or Abraham but he played Peppers in his first game after the injury to his shoulder. It was his worst game of the year.


PFF again... And it's based on careers...


All in all, based on last year, I only think Wake should be a bit higher. I love the rankings, just not the descriptions.[/quote]
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zacapr22


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
19. Ed Reed, Free Safety, BAL: 68 Points[Bracket 1-20]

18. Jared Allen, 4-3 Defensive End, MIN: 75 Points[Bracket 1-20]



Rolling Eyes Jared Allen was not better than Reed. I wouldn't even put Allen in my top 30
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone care to debate Polamalu and Nnamdi over Ware? He's my #1 defender in the NFL and since this is the debate portion I figured I'd open it up
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WaterBear56


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top 10 Quarterbacks
88. Matt Ryan
86. Josh Freeman
55. Tony Romo
47. Micheal Vick
21. Ben Roethlisberger
15. Drew Brees
13. Philip Rivers
07. Aaron Rodgers
02. Peyton Manning
01. Tom Brady

Top 9 Halfbacks
100. Darren McFadden
94. Arian Foster
83. Frank Gore
73. Ray Rice
54. Steven Jackson
52. Jamaal Charles
28. Maurice Jones-Drew
20. Chris Johnson
05. Adrian Peterson

Top 11 Wide Receivers
98. Devin Hester
87. Hakeem Nicks
85. Miles Austin
77. Mike Wallace
70. Brandon Marshall
53. Reggie Wayne
51. Greg Jennings
34. Roddy White
24. Calvin Johnson
16. Larry Fitzgerald
08. Andre Johnson

Top 1 Offensive Specialist
69. Desean Jackson

Top 4 Tight Ends
81. Dallas Clark
60. Vernon Davis
39. Jason Witten
25. Antonio Gates

Top 5 Left Tackles
93. Jason Peters
61. D'Brickshaw Ferguson
59. Micheal Roos
22. Jake Long
11. Joe Thomas

Top 2 Right Tackles
68. David Stewart
58. Sebastian Vollmer

Top 2 Left Guards
75. Kris Dielman
56. Logan Mankins

Top 4 Right Guards
91. Josh Sitton
62. Jahri Evans
42. Carl Nicks
41. Chris Snee

Top 4 Centers
99. Ryan Kalil
95. Alex Mack
50. Jeff Saturday
26. Nick Mangold

Top 2 Defensive Linemen
84. Darnell Docket
09. Holoti Ngata

Top 1 3-4 Defensive End
57. Justin Smith

Top 2 Defensive Tackles
92. Kyle Williams
65. Brandon Mebane

Top 3 4-3 Defensive Tackles
37. Ndamukong Suh
33. Richard Seymour
30. Kevin Williams

Top 4 3-4 Nose Tackle
72. Jay Ratliff
44. B.J. Raji
36. Casey Hampton
32. Vince Wilfork

Top 9 4-3 Defensive Ends
96. Robert Mathis
90. Osi Umenyiora
89. Chris Long
74. John Abraham
40. Dwight Freeney
38. Justin Tuck
29. Trent Cole
23. Julius Peppers
18. Jared Allen

Top 9 3-4 Outside Linebackers
97. Brian Orakpo
82. Tamba Hali
71. Cameron Wake
49. Mario Williams
46. Terrell Suggs
45. LaMarr Woodley
27. Clay Mathews III
14. James Harrison
06. DeMarcus Ware

Top 2 4-3 Outside Linebackers
80. Chad Greenway
67. Lance Briggs

Top 2 Middle Linebackers
48. Brian Urlacher
35. Jon Beason

Top 3 Inside Linebackers
66. Lawrence Timmons
31. Ray Lewis
10. Patrick Willis

Top 7 Cornerbacks
79. Asante Samuel
76. Tramon Williams
63. Champ Bailey
43. Brandon Flowers
17. Charles Woodson
12. Darrelle Revis
04. Nnamdi Asomugha

Top 2 Free Safeties
64. Nick Collins
19. Ed Reed

Top 1 Strong Safety
3. Troy Polamalu

Top 1 Punter
78. Shane Lechler

Top 1 Ruturn Specialist
Devin Hester(Second Time on list)

52 Offensive players.
47 Defensive players
2 Special Teams players.
Total Players: 100(Devin Hester counts as 1)

Hoping someone else can do a players per team list?

EDIT: Forgot to add DeSean's ranking.


Last edited by WaterBear56 on Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WaterBear56


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Except ProFootballFocus was not used in ANY of these stats especially pressures because they attribute way too many pressures. According to FO Wake had 8 Pressures and 4 Hits in '09.

Because prior to 2008 Ware was in coverage often. We haven't seen Wake do it. And as for the run stuffing thing when you're often crashing the line of scrimmage you can still get stuff totals easily.


1. 8 Pressures, 4 hits, and 7 sacks in 1/5th of a season. That's roughly in 3 total games and a quarter.
2. I said myself that we all know Ware can cover. I'm asking where's your proof that Wake can't. He is certainly not great but by no means a weakness and if stuffs are so easy to get than why didn't anyone have more?

Quote:
That's ONE season.... From 07-09 he was thrown at more than EVERY WR by over 40 passes and yet lacked the receiving yards and touchdowns that the other elites had.


How does that affect his catch rate? If anything, it only makes him look better. I'm not comparing him to anyone.

Quote:
PFF again... And it's based on careers...


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/15/three-year-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-linemen/
Still on top. That said, I don't know how many similar games they faced but honestly, it's not something really worth looking up. I understand Thomas' ranking above him though I don't understand your hatred towards PFF. I understand that they sometimes make ridiculous claims but have any of their stats ever been disproved? If so, then I suppose I'll stop using them as well.
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