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FF's "Official" Top 100 Players List(2011) Debate
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G3RMANATOR wrote:
I did explain a theory as to why or why not the raiders are passed on more. Its to my understanding that they have a bad run defense, but if their pass defense was bad as well then why aren't they passed on only the 2nd fewest times? I said maybe since they are so bad at run defense that they adjust their defensive scheme and secondary to be more suited against the run (8 men in the box, etc.) I just don't think saying their the 28th pass defense because of touchdowns is the best indicator. For instance, the Packers had the number 1 run defense in 2009, then used a 2-4-5 defense mostly last year and their rush defense fell to 17th I believe.


So they were average in YA/A, horrible in Pass TDs, but because they didn't get passed on often (perhaps because teams were ahead and were running the clock out) you think that validates a CB being better than a DE?

Quote:
I did leave out run defense (doesn't mean I'm trying to ignore that part of the game) but they do help against the run if used right. Darrelle Revis ability to take out a number one receiver (this is used by the jets corners in general) allows linebackers and safeties to blitz more and be used in more ways that help the run game.


So if the Raiders had an elite CB, a "Top 10 CB" and a revamped DL with 8 men in the box, how could their run D be so horrible if Nnamdi's impact is that much? Be honest - it's very limited, if not non-existant against the run.

So we have a DE who's imapct in the pass game is about equal to the CB's, and who's impact in the run game is vastly higher than the CB's.

Quote:
Another point that I think is fair to add is this. The Steelers have easily the best 3-4 OLB tandem in the league. They are great in pass defense vs pro style offenses that use the whole fullback, tight end sets and I formations. However, when you spread them out with a 4 wr set, you limit their effectiveness and this is where cornerback play comes into account. You see the spread offenses of the Packers and Patriots absolutely slaughter them. As a Packer fan, Aaron Rodgers worst game of the season came against the New York Jets, who have good corners and garbage pass rush. He also struggles vs Tampa Bay (good corners) and Chicago (cover 2) who really rely on secondary play more than pass rush for their pass defense.


So you try to use a team that's been to 3 Super Bowls, and Won 2 in the last decade as validation that having an Elite Pass Rusher isn't better htan having an Elite CB? How many Super Bowls did the Raiders or Jets go to with an Elite CB? As for Rodgers, he happens to be one of hte most elusive QB's in the NFL so a good pass rusher will have a harder time impacting him than a normal QB, but let's not forget that a DE doesn't just pass rush... they also shutdown the run.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're right. Mike Scifres is. McBriar is 3rd.


No. Actually Donnie Jones is.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're right. Mike Scifres is. McBriar is 3rd.


No. Actually Donnie Jones is.


Fourth.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're right. Mike Scifres is. McBriar is 3rd.


No. Actually Donnie Jones is.


Fourth.


Donnie Jones and Shane Lechler are the only 2 Punters since Baugh to average 50.0 or more yards per punt in a season.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're right. Mike Scifres is. McBriar is 3rd.


No. Actually Donnie Jones is.


Fourth.


Donnie Jones and Shane Lechler are the only 2 Punters since Baugh to average 50.0 or more yards per punt in a season.


A season.

But I'm about done arguing about punters Smile
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G3RMANATOR


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
G3RMANATOR wrote:
I did explain a theory as to why or why not the raiders are passed on more. Its to my understanding that they have a bad run defense, but if their pass defense was bad as well then why aren't they passed on only the 2nd fewest times? I said maybe since they are so bad at run defense that they adjust their defensive scheme and secondary to be more suited against the run (8 men in the box, etc.) I just don't think saying their the 28th pass defense because of touchdowns is the best indicator. For instance, the Packers had the number 1 run defense in 2009, then used a 2-4-5 defense mostly last year and their rush defense fell to 17th I believe.


So they were average in YA/A, horrible in Pass TDs, but because they didn't get passed on often (perhaps because teams were ahead and were running the clock out) you think that validates a CB being better than a DE?

Quote:
I did leave out run defense (doesn't mean I'm trying to ignore that part of the game) but they do help against the run if used right. Darrelle Revis ability to take out a number one receiver (this is used by the jets corners in general) allows linebackers and safeties to blitz more and be used in more ways that help the run game.


So if the Raiders had an elite CB, a "Top 10 CB" and a revamped DL with 8 men in the box, how could their run D be so horrible if Nnamdi's impact is that much? Be honest - it's very limited, if not non-existant against the run.

So we have a DE who's imapct in the pass game is about equal to the CB's, and who's impact in the run game is vastly higher than the CB's.

Quote:
Another point that I think is fair to add is this. The Steelers have easily the best 3-4 OLB tandem in the league. They are great in pass defense vs pro style offenses that use the whole fullback, tight end sets and I formations. However, when you spread them out with a 4 wr set, you limit their effectiveness and this is where cornerback play comes into account. You see the spread offenses of the Packers and Patriots absolutely slaughter them. As a Packer fan, Aaron Rodgers worst game of the season came against the New York Jets, who have good corners and garbage pass rush. He also struggles vs Tampa Bay (good corners) and Chicago (cover 2) who really rely on secondary play more than pass rush for their pass defense.


So you try to use a team that's been to 3 Super Bowls, and Won 2 in the last decade as validation that having an Elite Pass Rusher isn't better htan having an Elite CB? How many Super Bowls did the Raiders or Jets go to with an Elite CB? As for Rodgers, he happens to be one of hte most elusive QB's in the NFL so a good pass rusher will have a harder time impacting him than a normal QB, but let's not forget that a DE doesn't just pass rush... they also shutdown the run.



The Raiders were 8-8 this year, pretty sure teams weren't running the clock out all of the time. And you use the Raiders for my 8 men in the box theory, but what about the Jets? Theres no doubting the Jets are the prime example of using linebackers/safeties to blitz more often because of their stout corners. I think the Jets are a better example of what a great cornerback can do, as they have no pass rush whatsoever, they make up for it by sending extra players on the blitz to compensate and not worry because they have Revis and Cromartie.

You missed the point entirely about the Steelers. Theres no doubting there a great team and great defense, my point was that versus certain passing attacks (mainly spread offenses) they struggle mightly because they have average cornerback play despite 2 stud OLB's. Just trying to show that corner heavy pass defenses have few weaknesses while the Steelers have a clear weakness because of their heavy reliance on pass rush.

Also I think the fact that they had the 2nd most sacks in the league despite being passed on the 2nd fewest times is a huge sign that their pass defense clearly wasn't bad.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


*POUNDS HAND ON DESK AND STOMPS FEET* McBriar isn't even the 2nd best Punter in the NFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're right. Mike Scifres is. McBriar is 3rd.


No. Actually Donnie Jones is.


Fourth.


Donnie Jones and Shane Lechler are the only 2 Punters since Baugh to average 50.0 or more yards per punt in a season.


A season.

But I'm about done arguing about punters Smile


Yea, a season. We could also talk about his 3 straight years of 40+ net punting average or the fact that his worst year in punting average in the last 4 years is 45.5 yards per punt in a year where he played threw a leg injury. We could also mention that he has 66 Punts downed in the 20 and only 14 touchbacks in the last 2 years. Lets also mention the fact that he has a career average of 45.5 yards per punt and a career net average of 39.3 yards per punt.
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Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G3RMANATOR wrote:
The Raiders were 8-8 this year, pretty sure teams weren't running the clock out all of the time. And you use the Raiders for my 8 men in the box theory, but what about the Jets? Theres no doubting the Jets are the prime example of using linebackers/safeties to blitz more often because of their stout corners. I think the Jets are a better example of what a great cornerback can do, as they have no pass rush whatsoever, they make up for it by sending extra players on the blitz to compensate and not worry because they have Revis and Cromartie.

You missed the point entirely about the Steelers. Theres no doubting there a great team and great defense, my point was that versus certain passing attacks (mainly spread offenses) they struggle mightly because they have average cornerback play despite 2 stud OLB's. Just trying to show that corner heavy pass defenses have few weaknesses while the Steelers have a clear weakness because of their heavy reliance on pass rush.

Also I think the fact that they had the 2nd most sacks in the league despite being passed on the 2nd fewest times is a huge sign that their pass defense clearly wasn't bad.


All I'm really hearing you talk about is pass, pass, pass - yes - a CB will impact passing plays; an OLB will as well (coverage and rushing) - so they probably even out here. Great Pass D can be had with either one - no denying that.

However the true difference - and it's VAST - is the running game. A great DC with two good corners able to make up for that with exotic blitzes, etc? Sure - but 1 elite CB isn't enough and the fact that the Raiders has been bad year in and year out for almost his entire time there should be evidence enough that having an elite CB doesn't help much in the run game. Where as an Elite DE/OLB obviously will.

I honestly don't understand where we're missing each other on this one but I just don't see how a CB's value can be equal to a DE's.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying to rate punters is....useless. It's really as simple as Lechler is best, than a good half dozen guys are very good, but not on Lechler's level, then a bunch of middle of the road guys, and the guys who are constantly being replaced. Rating the ones whoa re in those tiers together is...blegh.
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G3RMANATOR


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
G3RMANATOR wrote:
The Raiders were 8-8 this year, pretty sure teams weren't running the clock out all of the time. And you use the Raiders for my 8 men in the box theory, but what about the Jets? Theres no doubting the Jets are the prime example of using linebackers/safeties to blitz more often because of their stout corners. I think the Jets are a better example of what a great cornerback can do, as they have no pass rush whatsoever, they make up for it by sending extra players on the blitz to compensate and not worry because they have Revis and Cromartie.

You missed the point entirely about the Steelers. Theres no doubting there a great team and great defense, my point was that versus certain passing attacks (mainly spread offenses) they struggle mightly because they have average cornerback play despite 2 stud OLB's. Just trying to show that corner heavy pass defenses have few weaknesses while the Steelers have a clear weakness because of their heavy reliance on pass rush.

Also I think the fact that they had the 2nd most sacks in the league despite being passed on the 2nd fewest times is a huge sign that their pass defense clearly wasn't bad.


All I'm really hearing you talk about is pass, pass, pass - yes - a CB will impact passing plays; an OLB will as well (coverage and rushing) - so they probably even out here. Great Pass D can be had with either one - no denying that.

However the true difference - and it's VAST - is the running game. A great DC with two good corners able to make up for that with exotic blitzes, etc? Sure - but 1 elite CB isn't enough and the fact that the Raiders has been bad year in and year out for almost his entire time there should be evidence enough that having an elite CB doesn't help much in the run game. Where as an Elite DE/OLB obviously will.

I honestly don't understand where we're missing each other on this one but I just don't see how a CB's value can be equal to a DE's.



I think we should of a no holds barred duel to the death, last man standing wins Wink

I guess we will disagree on their importance. I think corner affects passing game more, but obviously ends and backers affect the run game more. And I don't neccesarily think corner is better, I for one think their about equal.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
But I'm about done arguing about punters Smile

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drd23


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Yea, a season. We could also talk about his 3 straight years of 40+ net punting average or the fact that his worst year in punting average in the last 4 years is 45.5 yards per punt in a year where he played threw a leg injury. We could also mention that he has 66 Punts downed in the 20 and only 14 touchbacks in the last 2 years. Lets also mention the fact that he has a career average of 45.5 yards per punt and a career net average of 39.3 yards per punt.

You do realise that Yards/Punt isnt exactly the greatest way to measure a punter, right? Punters on teams with a good offense get punished by it because they generally have a shorter distance to punt because the offense is more likely to gain yardage.

A lack of touchbacks are # of punts inside the 20 (and even the 10) are a better way of objectively measuring punters.

And Sam Koch has a resume at least as an impressive (if not more) as Donnie Jones Wink (Career net average of 39.7 yds/punt, and 59 punts inside the 20 and just 9 touchbacks in the last 2 years)
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GaTechRavens


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RashaanSalaami wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
I still didn't include a lot of special teamers because the separation between them is much smaller than it is at other positions. There's no perfect way of measuring that, but most punters are somewhat indistinguishable.


See this doesn't make sense. If you put no value on positional importance and say there's minimal separation at ST positions, you wouldn't have one punter at 9 then the rest outside the top 100. It's extremely contradictory. Lechler clearly isn't that much better than the rest of his peers. Whats separated him has been career consistency. However when you look at the past several years, McBriar, at a minimum should be right up there with him somewhere on the list.

Personally, I think you put Lechler that high to make a point. The point, while maybe valid, was blown out of proportion. In no way is Lechler that much better than his positional peers to justify that type of ranking if no other punter is listed in the top 100. It makes not a shred of sense to me.

There may be no perfect way of measuring special teamers, but I know this is not a right one.


If anything was done to make a point, it was accidental. I'm not going to be dishonest just to promote an agenda, though I don't think you're accusing me of that.

And I really think Lechler has separated himself a decent bit from the competition. The separation between Lechler and McBriar may not be enormous, but the difference between McBriar and anyone else is smaller, and beyond that, they're all pretty much impossible to distinguish. So when you have a punter at Lechler's level, it's more impressive because of that.

Obviously this was incredibly difficult to put together and there's probably no way I could have judged every position appropriately, as hard as I tried. I do believe that all special teamers are roughly alike and that's going to hurt them in these rankings. It also calls into question what counts as a position. There could be as few as 10 and as many as 20. In that case. So, it's extremely complicated. But Lechler firmly belongs where he does. If the ranking is contradictory, and maybe it is, then push up a bunch of other special teamers. I just did my best to apply a philosophy I believe in and hopefully this list was as close to accomplishing what I wanted it to as possible.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
Yea, a season. We could also talk about his 3 straight years of 40+ net punting average or the fact that his worst year in punting average in the last 4 years is 45.5 yards per punt in a year where he played threw a leg injury. We could also mention that he has 66 Punts downed in the 20 and only 14 touchbacks in the last 2 years. Lets also mention the fact that he has a career average of 45.5 yards per punt and a career net average of 39.3 yards per punt.

You do realise that Yards/Punt isnt exactly the greatest way to measure a punter, right? Punters on teams with a good offense get punished by it because they generally have a shorter distance to punt because the offense is more likely to gain yardage.

A lack of touchbacks are # of punts inside the 20 (and even the 10) are a better way of objectively measuring punters.

And Sam Koch has a resume at least as an impressive (if not more) as Donnie Jones Wink (Career net average of 39.7 yds/punt, and 59 punts inside the 20 and just 9 touchbacks in the last 2 years)


That's a better way? That stat is similarly flawed because a Punter on a good team will have more opportunities to drop punts in the 20 because his team is able to move the ball more effectively.

However, while we're talking about Koch, your numbers are way off. He has 65 punts inside the 20 the last 2 years but also only a 38.3 career net average. Koch also has never averaged more than 45.0 yards per punt nor has he broken 40.0 net yards per punt in his career.

I think Donnie Jones proved in 2010 that he isn't just a Punter who can rack up big punt average numbers on a bad team. While playing injured, he managed to average 45.5 yards per punt and 40.0 net yards per punt but even more impressively, he dropped 32 punts inside the 20 with only 4 touchbacks.
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Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you include positional value 10 of the top 10 would be QBs...
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