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FF's "Official" Top 100 Players List(2011) Debate
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rabbisson


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
PatriotsWin! wrote:
Run blocking is not a con for Mankins. Hes among the best at it, thats what hes known for!


Only twice have the Patriots had effective numbers running to Mankins side that could be considered anything other than average.


He's more known for pulling to the right side. Many of his runs come on pulls.
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Iggles wrote:
This guy gets it. Seriously, the ideas being espoused here need to get to 88 mph so they can go back to the 1950's.

I'm a cold-blooded dickens.
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goldfishwars


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
PatriotsWin! wrote:
Run blocking is not a con for Mankins. Hes among the best at it, thats what hes known for!


Only twice have the Patriots had effective numbers running to Mankins side that could be considered anything other than average.


That's because of Matt Light, who had a poor year by his standards. Watch Logan's work pulling to the right off short-pass and screen plays. He's a beast.
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will look for the pulling numnbers. Sorry bout that guys
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JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Yes, Victor Cruz is a bigger asset to a QB than Antonio Brown is. Id be hard-pressed to find many people that would take the latter.


JerseysFinest27 wrote:
10. Antonio Brown


Cruz wasnt even an HM
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AlexM23


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't have any big complaints about the list, good job.

Who were some of the HM's?
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mankins is a very good pulling guard. He's not great at straight up mauling someone who lines up across from him, but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

Tomorrow I'll go through the whole list and color code based on who should be higher/lower.


RashaanSalaami wrote:
Someone HAS to explain to me the justification for having Jason Peters so low


My explanation--Pretty much every eagles fan I know spent the season talking about how terrible their line was and how it should be without a doubt their top offseason priority. So for me I guess its the fallacy of division. I'll gladly advocate for him to be higher.
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AlexM23


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:


RashaanSalaami wrote:
Someone HAS to explain to me the justification for having Jason Peters so low


My explanation--Pretty much every eagles fan I know spent the season talking about how terrible their line was and how it should be without a doubt their top offseason priority. So for me I guess its the fallacy of division. I'll gladly advocate for him to be higher.

He played RT with Vick being left handed which kind of explains his lights-out play for most the season, I think he's about where he belongs on the list.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E-Man wrote:
no surprise here...


I think Eli has become a little bit underrated by being overrated, but I also don't think that he deserves to be among the top 100 players in the NFL.

I got my homer shades out for Freeman, and he probably does not deserve a spot on this list, and it will likely come out in the wash.

Back to Eli, I think he has a propensity for turnovers, one can argue that he got unlucky with a few tipped balls ending up in the arms of defenders, but he just set a career high in completion percentage, at 62.9%. He has thrown 69 interceptions in the last four years and has twice thrown the most interceptions in the league, over that same time span he has also fumbled 39 times. The 102 TD's over the same time span are not enough to make up for his tendency to turn the ball over.

Eli is a bit of an enigma, he is a very polarizing figure, people tend to love or hate him, which is ironic considering he is probably a middle of the table NFL QB right now.

goldfishwars wrote:
It's good list overall.

Revis out of the top 10 is a headscratcher. Beason, Hampton and Flowers are all WAAAAY too high in that list.


Why is Flowers too high, go back and look at the metrics the guy posts, he is right there among the top of that 2nd tier and he has done it ever since he stepped foot on an NFL field, not to mention his first two seasons he did it without pass rush help.

I had him in my top 20. I heavily weighted corners, early, but he still more than deserves the spot he has.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here are my thoughts. Color coded, with a range I think certain players should be in.

Should Be Higher
Should Be Lower
Should Not Be on the List


1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Troy Polomalu
4. Nnamdi Asomugha
5. Adrian Peterson
6. DeMarcus Ware
7. Aaron Rodgers (20-25)
8. Andre Johnson
9. Haloti Ngata
10. Patrick Willis
11. Joe Thomas
12. Darrelle Revis
13. Phillip Rivers
14. James Harrison
15. Drew Brees
16. Larry Fitzgerald
17. Charles Woodson
18. Jared Allen
19. Ed Reed
20. Chris Johnson
21. Ben Roethlisberger
22. Jake Long
23. Julius Peppers
24. Calvin Johnson
25. Antonio Gates
26. Nick Mangold
27. Clay Matthews III (40-50)
28. Maurice Jones-Drew
29. Trent Cole (40-50)
30. Kevin Williams (15-20)
31. Ray Lewis
32. Vince Wilfork
33. Richard Seymour (40-50)
34. Roddy White
35. Jon Beason
36. Casey Hampton
37. Ndamukong Suh (60-70)
38. Justin Tuck
39. Jason Witten
40. Dwight Freeney
41. Chris Snee
42. Carl Nicks
43. Brandon Flowers (60-70)
44. BJ Raji
45. LaMarr Woodley
46. Terrell Suggs
47. Michael Vick
48. Brian Urlacher
49. Mario Williams
50. Jeff Saturday (30-40)
51. Greg Jennings
52. Jamaal Charles
53. Reggie Wayne
54. Steven Jackson (35-45)
55. Tony Romo (65-75)
56. Logan Mankins
57. Justin Smith
58. Sebastian Vollmer (80-90)
59. Michael Roos
60. Vernon Davis
61. D'Brickashaw Ferguson
62. Jahri Evans
63. Champ Bailey
64. Nick Collins
65. Brandon Mebane
66. Lawrence Timmons
67. Lance Briggs
68. David Stewart
69. DeSean Jackson (90-100)
70. Brandon Marshall
71. Cameron Wake
72. Jay Ratliff
73. Ray Rice (50-60)
74. John Abraham
75. Kris Dielman
76. Tramon Williams
77. Mike Wallace
78. Shane Lechler
79. Asante Samuel
80. Chad Greenway
81. Dallas Clark
82. Tamba Hali
83. Frank Gore
84. Darnell Dockett
85. Miles Austin
86. Josh Freeman
87. Matt Ryan
88. Hakeem Nicks
89. Chris Long
90. Osi Umenyiora (60-70)
91. Josh Sitton
92. Kyle Williams (70-80)
93. Jason Peters (70-80)
94. Arian Foster
95. Alex Mack
96. Robert Mathis (70-80)
97. Brian Orakpo
98. Devin Hester
99. Ryan Kalil
100. Darren McFadden

Should be included:

Michael Turner (70-80)
Jonathan Vilma (70-80)
Shaun Phillips (70-80)
David Harris (70-80)
Andrew Whitworth (80-90)
Matt Schaub (80-90)
Marcus McNiel (85-95)
Karlos Dansby (90-100)
Bobbie Williams (95-100)
Tony Gonzalez (95-100)
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel I have to make an argument for Karlos Dansby in here somewhere. I think his absence from this list, and indeeed from most of the voting is a real shame.

Karlos is one of the true complete linebackers in the NFL right now. You can literally ask him to do anything you would ask of a linebacker and he can do it well. He falls down becasue he is not elite in one aspect, he does not make a huge number of big hits, he is not a guy who blitzes a huge amount, he is not a guy who is going to get his hands on a huge number of passes.

But he is a guy you can ask to blitz and he will usually get pressure. He is a guy you can ask to drop back and play deep middle coverage, and he will do so well, getting good depth and often preventing the pass from being completed.

Over the past three seasons in terms of "big" or "splash" plays he has outproduced most, and has at least matched the four big name MLB's hanging around the league right now.

8 sacks, 21 stuffs, 5 FF, 3 FR, 3 INT's for Dansby compared to the likes of;

11 sacks, 9 stuffs, 6 FF, 1 FR, 4 INT's for Patrick Willis
8.5 sacks, 16.5 stuffs, 6 FF, 6 FR, 5 INT's for Ray Lewis
4 sacks, 20 stuffs, 3 FF, 2 FR, 4 INT's for Jon Beason
4 sacks, 17.5 stuffs, 2 FF, 4 FR, 2 INT's for Brian Urlacher (Though he missed most of 2009)

If you want to look at run defeats and stops, and the average yardage surrendered with respect to running plays Dansby is comparable too;

141 stops and 41 defeats, with averages of 3.6, 4.3, and 3.8 over the past three seasons.

Beason has 162 stops, 38 defeats with averages of 4.4, 3.9 and 3.5 over the past three seasons.
Willis has 136 stops, 26 defeats with averages of 4.4, 4.4 and 4.7 over the past three seasons.
Lewis has 161 stops, 37 defeats with averages of 3.4, 3.1 and 3.8 over the past three seasons.

He has slipped many peoples minds since his high paying move to the Dolphins, but he performance has not slipped one iota, he is still as great as he was his last two seasons in Arizona, and those seasons saw him a top 5 ILB in the NFL, and certainly one of the top 100 players in the league.

He has posted very comparable numbers to three other linebackers who were all ranked in the top 40 of this list, yet Dansby going into the final section of 20 had a grand total of 0 votes.

It is a travesty that he is not on this list.
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goldfishwars


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Turner is a huge oversight.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
Jonathan Vilma (70-80)
David Harris (70-80)
Karlos Dansby (90-100)


What do you feel seperates Vilma, and in particular Harris from Dansby.

See my above post for my "tangible" arguments for Dansby.
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Its A Sabotage


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
78. Shane Lechler


Think I pretty much lost interest after seeing this.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
Quote:
78. Shane Lechler


Think I pretty much lost interest after seeing this.


Some people had him in their top 20. If you took it in terms of which player plays their position better than other players in the NFL play their positions, Lechler as a punter plays that role better than 95% of players in the NFL, and it is a reason for him to be considered.

I personally used positional bias, others did not, if I was not using positional bias, Lechler would have undoubtedly been in my top 10, and I probably would have had three punters in the top 100.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
Jonathan Vilma (70-80)
David Harris (70-80)
Karlos Dansby (90-100)


What do you feel seperates Vilma, and in particular Harris from Dansby.

See my above post for my "tangible" arguments for Dansby.


He doesn't seem to be the type that excels at anything. He is very good at several different aspects, but he doesn't jump out at you. Vilma is excellent in coverage, Harris is excellent as a "thumper", so the fact that they are more specialized is what gives them a slight distinction to me. I definitely think all 3 should be on the list though.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
khodder wrote:
james.mcmurry13 wrote:
Jonathan Vilma (70-80)
David Harris (70-80)
Karlos Dansby (90-100)


What do you feel seperates Vilma, and in particular Harris from Dansby.

See my above post for my "tangible" arguments for Dansby.


He doesn't seem to be the type that excels at anything. He is very good at several different aspects, but he doesn't jump out at you. Vilma is excellent in coverage, Harris is excellent as a "thumper", so the fact that they are more specialized is what gives them a slight distinction to me. I definitely think all 3 should be on the list though.


I mentioned that exact thing in my above post. Dansby may not excel in coverage like Vilma, but he is a far superior pass rusher and run defender. He may not be the run thumper that Harris is, but he is far superior in coverage.
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