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This Ain't Cardinals Talk!!!!!!!! The Ask Anything Thread
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 12157
Location: the Arizona desert
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Watching the Jets play makes me eyes bleed almost as much as watching the Cardinals.


The difference is Rex Ryan coaching the hell out of an average team the last 4 seasons.
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khodder


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Joined: 19 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Watching the Jets play makes me eyes bleed almost as much as watching the Cardinals.


The difference is Rex Ryan coaching the hell out of an average team the last 4 seasons.


Whaa, huh, uh, um, oh, I don't know what to say to that.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 12157
Location: the Arizona desert
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
#1CARDSFAN wrote:
Watching the Jets play makes me eyes bleed almost as much as watching the Cardinals.


The difference is Rex Ryan coaching the hell out of an average team the last 4 seasons.


Whaa, huh, uh, um, oh, I don't know what to say to that.


Because it true. This is coming from someone who thinks he's really annoying at times. They've overachieved during his tenure, plain and simple.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
They've overachieved during his tenure, plain and simple.


The same exact thing could be said about Arizona over the past 6 years. Last year our team had no right to be 8-8, that roster, especially offensively was a 4-5 win team.

2007 no way was that an 8 win team
2008 that team was barely a 9 win team and they went on to be two minutes away from a Superbowl Win.
2009 Overacheived again, that was not a 10 win roster, look at the holes on defense, did really well to get to 10 wins.

2010 that roster was probably a 4-5 win roster we got 5.
2011 that roster was probably a 5-6 win roster we got 8.

This team has overachieved the entire time Ken Whisenhunt has been here.

Even 2012, sans Kolb this is a 3-5 win roster at most, we have 5 wins right now.

The management of the quarterback position has not been good. But Ken has done amazingly well with some of the rosters this team has had.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can anyone think we've overachieved? More than half the roster were guys he brought in. Still ignoring any accountability and the long losing streaks 3 years in a row...

-34-27 with Mark Sanchez

-44-49 with 2.5 years of Kurt

Don't even like the guy but it's clear who has gotten more from his team. Neither is good at evaluating/developing a QB as a HC.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
How can anyone think we've overachieved? More than half the roster were guys he brought in. Still ignoring any accountability and the long losing streaks 3 years in a row...

-34-27 with Mark Sanchez

-44-49 with 2.5 years of Kurt

Don't even like the guy but it's clear who has gotten more from his team. Neither is good at evaluating/developing a QB as a HC.


1 - Why do you continue to beleive that it is on the Head Coach to develop a QB. It is not. It is why you hire a Quarterbacks coach.

2 -If we had 2010 and 2011 Mark Sanchez playing here Whis has another playoff season (2011) and probably another 8-8 season (2010)

Over the course of those two seasons Sanchez had 6700 yards, 43 TD's to 31 INT's.

Over the course of those two seasons Cardinals QB's are a combined 7200 yards 31 TD's to 42 INT's.

3 - You need to be able to use your head to separate coaching from roster management. You seem to blame Ken for his poor roster yet have given Rex Ryan a huge break for his poor roster, saying he has over-acheived. Separate the two and yes, maybe the Jets have overacheived, but so have the Cardinals. 8-8 with 21 TD's and 23 INT's coming from your QB's.

If you separate Ken from the roster management side of things and look at the rosters he has coached in Isolation, for the last three seasons we are looking at 5 win rosters. 15 wins across three years is what this roster was worthy of, we got to 5 in 2010, we overachieved and got to 8 in 2011 and we are at 5 again in 2012.

4 - TL;DR If Rex Ryan overacheived because of a poor roster and wins then so did Ken Whisenhunt. If you are going to vilify Ken for for not putting together a good enough roster you have to do the same for Rex.
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Last edited by khodder on Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DJ_Fka


Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder what Sanchize would cost in a trade now?

My guess is bugger all, problem is that nasty extension he signed.
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DirtyDez


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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Location: the Arizona desert
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
How can anyone think we've overachieved? More than half the roster were guys he brought in. Still ignoring any accountability and the long losing streaks 3 years in a row...

-34-27 with Mark Sanchez

-44-49 with 2.5 years of Kurt

Don't even like the guy but it's clear who has gotten more from his team. Neither is good at evaluating/developing a QB as a HC.


1 - Why do you continue to beleive that it is on the Head Coach to develop a QB. It is not. It is why you hire a Quarterbacks coach.

2 -If we had 2010 and 2011 Mark Sanchez playing here Whis has another playoff season (2011) and probably another 8-8 season (2010)

Over the course of those two seasons Sanchez had 6700 yards, 43 TD's to 31 INT's.

Over the course of those two seasons Cardinals QB's are a combined 7200 yards 31 TD's to 42 INT's.

3 - You need to be able to use your head to separate coaching from roster management. You seem to blame Ken for his poor roster yet have given Rex Ryan a huge break for his poor roster, saying he has over-acheived. Separate the two and yes, maybe the Jets have overacheived, but so have the Cardinals. 8-8 with 21 TD's and 23 INT's coming from your QB's.

If you separate Ken from the roster management side of things and look at the rosters he has coached in Isolation, for the last three seasons we are looking at 5 win rosters. 15 wins across three years is what this roster was worthy of, we got to 5 in 2010, we overachieved and got to 8 in 2011 and we are at 5 again in 2012.

4 - TL;DR If Rex Ryan overacheived because of a poor roster and wins then so did Ken Whisenhunt. If you are going to vilify Ken for for not putting together a good enough roster you have to do the same for Rex.


The difference is Whiz having a lot more to do with player personal decisions. Rex Ryan was given a flawed team and made the defense elite overnight. That's his side of the ball... Rex Ryan has to deal with horrible owners who make decisions whether Rex likes it or not. Tannenbaum has way more control than Graves. The Jets have had success in the Playoffs despite their QB. We had success in the Playoffs mostly because of our QB. If we had any other QB in NFL history we lose to Green Bay. Of course Whiz played a part in our success but everyone knows Kurt was borderline elite elite in 5/6 playoff games.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I just say 1 thing here? Why is it that after all these years, nobody gives Ken Whisenhunt any credit for Kurt Warner's success? I simply never got that. I'm pretty over Whiz right now but to this day I don't get that. Stunk in the Giants system, stunk in Denny's system, great in Whiz's system. You'd think people would recognize that trend there and give credit accordingly but nobody does. People simply talk as if Kurt did everything all by himself and that Whiz was just a dog in the car along for the ride.
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DJ_Fka


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is due to the success with the Rams that Kurt was rated so highly.

That success proved to be his undoing with Giants and in Dennys system.

Whiz was smart enough to play to his strengths and had success with it.

The problem I have is that he hasnt adapted his new QBs strengths to a new system, we have been stuck in the same place with square pegs, in round holes.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ_Fka wrote:
It is due to the success with the Rams that Kurt was rated so highly.

That success proved to be his undoing with Giants and in Dennys system.

Whiz was smart enough to play to his strengths and had success with it.

The problem I have is that he hasnt adapted his new QBs strengths to a new system, we have been stuck in the same place with square pegs, in round holes.


That's kinda my point though. Whiz played to Kurt's strengths. Kurt played phenomenal in part due to this. Then it comes time to pass out credit and Kurt inevitably gets 99.99999% of it from the fans. Doesn't make any sense to me.
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#1CARDSFAN


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My stand is
NY Giants= mangled fingers
Denny Green= mangled fingers
Kenny Whiz= Kurt Warner takes a page out of Big Bens notebook and starts to use gloves to grip the ball better and when he gets used to the gloves he is back to his old form.Whiz never developed him or did anything other then allow Kurt free reign to run the offense to his strengths.
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11sanchez11


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1CARDSFAN wrote:
My stand is
NY Giants= mangled fingers
Denny Green= mangled fingers
Kenny Whiz= Kurt Warner takes a page out of Big Bens notebook and starts to use gloves to grip the ball better and when he gets used to the gloves he is back to his old form.Whiz never developed him or did anything other then allow Kurt free reign to run the offense to his strengths.
What else is they're to do? You're not grooming a 35 year old QB, at that point he is what he is, and Whiz let him be who he was. It's not like he had any amazing talent since then either, I don't know if he really has had a fair shot at developing his guy yet.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1CARDSFAN wrote:
My stand is
NY Giants= mangled fingers
Denny Green= mangled fingers
Kenny Whiz= Kurt Warner takes a page out of Big Bens notebook and starts to use gloves to grip the ball better and when he gets used to the gloves he is back to his old form.Whiz never developed him or did anything other then allow Kurt free reign to run the offense to his strengths.


He didn't have mangled fingers and that argument only goes so far with me after I watched Kurt LITERALLY play on 1 arm in 2007 and put up Pro Bowl numbers.

Of course he didn't develop him. Sean Payton didn't develop Drew Brees. Tony Dungy (A defensive minded coach) didn't develop Peyton Manning. It's not about personal development when you're talking about coaching QBs who have been in the league for a while and/or were already on the roster when you got there, both of which were the case for Whiz and Warner. It's about playing to a guy's strengths and making him comfortable in his own surroundings in that scenario. Whiz never gets any credit for that and it baffles me to this day that he doesn't.
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#1CARDSFAN


Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has there even been a QB who was 3rd in QBR ever been benched. It happened to Alex Smith. QBR of 104.1 is 3rd in the league.
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