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iPwn


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Dogs Reply with quote

wow


such new thread

much pages



wow






discuss here
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Yes, it worked very well. With my shoes it took maybe 2 or 3 times, but he absolutely knew what he did wrong and by the third time all I had to do was pickup the shoe and he knew what he did wrong. Maybe peeing is different, but I would physically pick up and show him the mail / shoe that he tore apart.

I don't know if that would work for every dog, but my dog seems pretty adept at reading my tone and attitude. And again, I use a ton of positive reinforcement with him as well and it is certainly my preferred method of training but there are instances where it might not be as effective.


did he know what he did wrong or did he know you were mad? you can show anger at a dog with anything and they will act like they did it. i bet if you picked up anything in your house and act like he chewed it up he would act the same. i know it doesnt work with potty accidents but maybe it works with something like chewing. but i have a puppy right now who liked shoes and she never even chewed up one since i showed her what she could chew and not chew first day. i never let her get a chance to do it either though.
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I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:
Quote:

Yes, it worked very well. With my shoes it took maybe 2 or 3 times, but he absolutely knew what he did wrong and by the third time all I had to do was pickup the shoe and he knew what he did wrong. Maybe peeing is different, but I would physically pick up and show him the mail / shoe that he tore apart.

I don't know if that would work for every dog, but my dog seems pretty adept at reading my tone and attitude. And again, I use a ton of positive reinforcement with him as well and it is certainly my preferred method of training but there are instances where it might not be as effective.


did he know what he did wrong or did he know you were mad? you can show anger at a dog with anything and they will act like they did it. i bet if you picked up anything in your house and act like he chewed it up he would act the same. i know it doesnt work with potty accidents but maybe it works with something like chewing. but i have a puppy right now who liked shoes and she never even chewed up one since i showed her what she could chew and not chew first day. i never let her get a chance to do it either though.


Well, he has since stopped chewing both the mail and my shoes, so something clicked.

Both my g/f and I work during the day, so unfortunately, aside from our dog walker that takes him out around noonish he has a lot of time to himself. He is only a year and a half and still has a ton of energy so I'm sure some of the chewing was related to that and maybe separation anxiety. When he was a puppy we did our best to correct him any time he'd chew on furniture or shoes, etc. but he started chewing the mail once we moved into our new apartment and started with my shoes again. I did what I thought would work and it did, maybe I needed to train him more on it when he was younger, but it is what it is.
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LionsFan01


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Well, I'm just telling you what I did and what the after effects were. Laughing

And literally the third time he chewed my shoe all I did was pick up my shoe and said, "what's this?" and his body language changed drastically from happy to see me come home to seemingly acknowledging wrongdoing.

I don't pretend to know all the technical jargon, so apologies if I used the wrong words, nor am I pretending to be an expert in how to train a dog, I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'd say that I have a fairly well behaved dog.... sans the goddamn jumping (but I blame that on my girlfriend and her mom). Laughing
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LionsFan01


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Well, I'm just telling you what I did and what the after effects were. Laughing

And literally the third time he chewed my shoe all I did was pick up my shoe and said, "what's this?" and his body language changed drastically from happy to see me come home to seemingly acknowledging wrongdoing.

I don't pretend to know all the technical jargon, so apologies if I used the wrong words, nor am I pretending to be an expert in how to train a dog, I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'd say that I have a fairly well behaved dog.... sans the goddamn jumping (but I blame that on my girlfriend and her mom). Laughing


Oh I'm not trying to attack you at all. Just don't want people to walk away from this thinking the wrong thing.

Many people find themselves in situations like yours where they find something their dog did wrong and they think they see their dog acknowledge what they did and look guilty. But more often than not your dog is responding to your body language and tone (which you might not recognize as changing all that much but dogs are incredibly good at recognizing even the smallest changes) rather than acknowledging what they did wrong.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think dogs know wrong doings, personally. Maybe not to the extent that people think they might, but I can certainly have an exact same tone/body language when my dog is eating out of the wrong dog bowl and when he has one of my socks (which he's allowed). When it's the bowl, he'll put his head down and walk away (just saying his name like "what are you doinggggg" type thing) but if he has one of my socks, his tail instantly wags and he runs right to me excited.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFan01 wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Well, I'm just telling you what I did and what the after effects were. Laughing

And literally the third time he chewed my shoe all I did was pick up my shoe and said, "what's this?" and his body language changed drastically from happy to see me come home to seemingly acknowledging wrongdoing.

I don't pretend to know all the technical jargon, so apologies if I used the wrong words, nor am I pretending to be an expert in how to train a dog, I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'd say that I have a fairly well behaved dog.... sans the goddamn jumping (but I blame that on my girlfriend and her mom). Laughing


Oh I'm not trying to attack you at all. Just don't want people to walk away from this thinking the wrong thing.

Many people find themselves in situations like yours where they find something their dog did wrong and they think they see their dog acknowledge what they did and look guilty. But more often than not your dog is responding to your body language and tone (which you might not recognize as changing all that much but dogs are incredibly good at recognizing even the smallest changes) rather than acknowledging what they did wrong.


Don't buy it. Have walked into the house far too many times not knowing that anything is wrong and I immediately knew the dogs did something bad because they were acting guilty (body language and expression).
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Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?
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yankee0724


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Positive reinforcement and negative punishment is the way to go imo.

You can still punish your dog, you just don't need to do the things people do when their dog does something wrong.
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also, yankee.. you usually have pretty good taste in things

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yankee0724


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Well, I'm just telling you what I did and what the after effects were. Laughing

And literally the third time he chewed my shoe all I did was pick up my shoe and said, "what's this?" and his body language changed drastically from happy to see me come home to seemingly acknowledging wrongdoing.

I don't pretend to know all the technical jargon, so apologies if I used the wrong words, nor am I pretending to be an expert in how to train a dog, I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'd say that I have a fairly well behaved dog.... sans the goddamn jumping (but I blame that on my girlfriend and her mom). Laughing


His body language changed not because he knows he did something wrong, but because something was wrong. If you come home and you yell at your dog because he chewed up your newspaper, for example, all he learns is that that specific situation (newspaper torn up on the floor) is bad. So the next time he chews up the newspaper when you're gone, he isn't hiding because he knows he did something wrong, but because he knows that situation has negative connotations.

Operant conditioning is really simple.

Positive reinforcement is adding something to reinforce a behavior (giving your dog a treat when he sits)
Negative reinforcement is taking something away to reinforce a behavior (keeping a tight leash and loosening the pressure on the dogs neck when it sits)
Positive punishment is adding something to stop a behavior ( kneeing your dog in the chest when it jumps on you)
Negative punishment is taking away something to stop a behavior ( not paying your dog attention until it stops jumping on you and calms down)

Positive punishment and negative reinforcement are what people are referring to when they talk about aversive training. It's why almost all dog trainers dislike Cesar Millan.
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UofMfan909 wrote:
also, yankee.. you usually have pretty good taste in things

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yankee0724


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
I do think dogs know wrong doings, personally. Maybe not to the extent that people think they might, but I can certainly have an exact same tone/body language when my dog is eating out of the wrong dog bowl and when he has one of my socks (which he's allowed). When it's the bowl, he'll put his head down and walk away (just saying his name like "what are you doinggggg" type thing) but if he has one of my socks, his tail instantly wags and he runs right to me excited.


Nobody's disputing that at all. It's all about how they learn. You're reinforcing your dog playing with the sock. If you were to start punishing that behavior, he'd stop doing it. There will be a time period where he's playing with the sock more because it got him that reaction he wants in the past, but if you were to ignore him when he has the sock and start praising him and what not when he drops it, he'll eventually leave your socks alone because he's associated having the sock with not getting attention.

It's the same thing with the bowl, start praising him for it and he won't react like that.
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UofMfan909 wrote:
also, yankee.. you usually have pretty good taste in things

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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yankee0724 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
I do think dogs know wrong doings, personally. Maybe not to the extent that people think they might, but I can certainly have an exact same tone/body language when my dog is eating out of the wrong dog bowl and when he has one of my socks (which he's allowed). When it's the bowl, he'll put his head down and walk away (just saying his name like "what are you doinggggg" type thing) but if he has one of my socks, his tail instantly wags and he runs right to me excited.


Nobody's disputing that at all. It's all about how they learn. You're reinforcing your dog playing with the sock. If you were to start punishing that behavior, he'd stop doing it. There will be a time period where he's playing with the sock more because it got him that reaction he wants in the past, but if you were to ignore him when he has the sock and start praising him and what not when he drops it, he'll eventually leave your socks alone because he's associated having the sock with not getting attention.

It's the same thing with the bowl, start praising him for it and he won't react like that.


I was responding to the post that dogs can't connect the wrongdoing. At least in my experience with my dog, even if it's after the action, if I ask him whether he ate the wrong food or whether he took my sock, I very easily get different reactions out of him and he knows both the word "food" and "sock" and gets excited about each typically. But if I ask "did you take my sock?" and "did you eat the other food?" with the exact same type of tone I get 2 very different reactions.

And he doesn't even play with socks at this point, he simply takes them and lays down with them Laughing

I'm not arguing on positive vs negative behavior, I'm commenting specifically on that I disagree that dogs are unable to connect wrongdoing after the fact. I don't think it's necessarily as direct as many people believe but I also don't believe that they are unable to do so.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yankee0724 wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Well, I'm just telling you what I did and what the after effects were. Laughing

And literally the third time he chewed my shoe all I did was pick up my shoe and said, "what's this?" and his body language changed drastically from happy to see me come home to seemingly acknowledging wrongdoing.

I don't pretend to know all the technical jargon, so apologies if I used the wrong words, nor am I pretending to be an expert in how to train a dog, I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'd say that I have a fairly well behaved dog.... sans the goddamn jumping (but I blame that on my girlfriend and her mom). Laughing


His body language changed not because he knows he did something wrong, but because something was wrong. If you come home and you yell at your dog because he chewed up your newspaper, for example, all he learns is that that specific situation (newspaper torn up on the floor) is bad. So the next time he chews up the newspaper when you're gone, he isn't hiding because he knows he did something wrong, but because he knows that situation has negative connotations.

Operant conditioning is really simple.

Positive reinforcement is adding something to reinforce a behavior (giving your dog a treat when he sits)
Negative reinforcement is taking something away to reinforce a behavior (keeping a tight leash and loosening the pressure on the dogs neck when it sits)
Positive punishment is adding something to stop a behavior ( kneeing your dog in the chest when it jumps on you)
Negative punishment is taking away something to stop a behavior ( not paying your dog attention until it stops jumping on you and calms down)

Positive punishment and negative reinforcement are what people are referring to when they talk about aversive training. It's why almost all dog trainers dislike Cesar Millan.


So there's 0 chance that the dog has simply put 2 and 2 together and recognized that what he did will result in negative consequences?
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KingBishop wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
Jarvis looked like a slug on and off the field.

Off the field? Like when he is grocery shopping, does he block the freezer aisle with his sluggish selection of which hungry man to buy?
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yankee0724


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
yankee0724 wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
LionsFan01 wrote:
Can't quote the locked thread, but I'm seeing alot of misinformation in the last page or so.

The idea that you can take a dog and show him what he did wrong (the chewing of the mail was the example I think) and expect him to understand that what he did in the past was wrong is incorrect. It's wrong for the same reason that rubbing a dog's face in its urine after it went in the house doesn't work. Dogs can't connect things like that. I don't doubt that the poster's dog has stopped chewing the mail, but I think correlation is being mistaken for causation here. You have literally 1-2 seconds for a correction to take place otherwise the dog loses the ability to connect the correction to the action.

And people are continuing to misunderstand operant conditioning. A correction is not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when a certain behavior is followed by the removal of an aversive to make that behavior more likely to occur in the future. Leash pressure is a common type of negative reinforcement that every dog owner uses whether they realize it or not. Corrections are positive punishment. This is when a behavior is followed by an aversive to make that behavior less likely to occur in the future.

And as for the whole positive reinforcement versus corrections issue, we've had pages upon pages of debate on that already. But I don't buy for a second that positive reinforcement alone is more effective than a balanced system that utilizes all components of operant conditioning. Dogs with serious behavioral issues need more than just positive reinforcement, especially when those behaviors are fear or anxiety based.


Well, I'm just telling you what I did and what the after effects were. Laughing

And literally the third time he chewed my shoe all I did was pick up my shoe and said, "what's this?" and his body language changed drastically from happy to see me come home to seemingly acknowledging wrongdoing.

I don't pretend to know all the technical jargon, so apologies if I used the wrong words, nor am I pretending to be an expert in how to train a dog, I'm just speaking from my experience. And I'd say that I have a fairly well behaved dog.... sans the goddamn jumping (but I blame that on my girlfriend and her mom). Laughing


His body language changed not because he knows he did something wrong, but because something was wrong. If you come home and you yell at your dog because he chewed up your newspaper, for example, all he learns is that that specific situation (newspaper torn up on the floor) is bad. So the next time he chews up the newspaper when you're gone, he isn't hiding because he knows he did something wrong, but because he knows that situation has negative connotations.

Operant conditioning is really simple.

Positive reinforcement is adding something to reinforce a behavior (giving your dog a treat when he sits)
Negative reinforcement is taking something away to reinforce a behavior (keeping a tight leash and loosening the pressure on the dogs neck when it sits)
Positive punishment is adding something to stop a behavior ( kneeing your dog in the chest when it jumps on you)
Negative punishment is taking away something to stop a behavior ( not paying your dog attention until it stops jumping on you and calms down)

Positive punishment and negative reinforcement are what people are referring to when they talk about aversive training. It's why almost all dog trainers dislike Cesar Millan.


So there's 0 chance that the dog has simply put 2 and 2 together and recognized that what he did will result in negative consequences?


They can, but it depends on how you do it. You need to correct the dog in the middle of him doing tha act, or within a few seconds after. If you correct your dog enough when you catch it in the act of tearing up the trash, it'll associate tearing up the trash with the bad response. If you do it an hour later when you get home, he just associates the mess with the bad response and thinks that's the issue, so he'll keep tearing the trash up and then have that reaction when you get home. Because it's put 2 and 2 together and got 3 (trash on the floor is bad), not 4 (tearing the trash up is bad)

Since you brought up your dogs looking guilty earlier, there's an experiment researchers dos that is link to, but in lazy when I'm on my phone. Basically there was a table in the middle of the room, with a piece of plywood blocking it's view from the door. Owners would be in the room with their dog, a piece of food would be left on the table and they're told to leave it alone and the owners left and came back like 10 minutes later. Generally speaking, the dogs that didn't touch the food had the same reaction as the dogs that took the food did when scolded when their owner opened the door, before the owner even knew if they took the food or not.
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also, yankee.. you usually have pretty good taste in things

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
yankee0724 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
I do think dogs know wrong doings, personally. Maybe not to the extent that people think they might, but I can certainly have an exact same tone/body language when my dog is eating out of the wrong dog bowl and when he has one of my socks (which he's allowed). When it's the bowl, he'll put his head down and walk away (just saying his name like "what are you doinggggg" type thing) but if he has one of my socks, his tail instantly wags and he runs right to me excited.


Nobody's disputing that at all. It's all about how they learn. You're reinforcing your dog playing with the sock. If you were to start punishing that behavior, he'd stop doing it. There will be a time period where he's playing with the sock more because it got him that reaction he wants in the past, but if you were to ignore him when he has the sock and start praising him and what not when he drops it, he'll eventually leave your socks alone because he's associated having the sock with not getting attention.

It's the same thing with the bowl, start praising him for it and he won't react like that.


I was responding to the post that dogs can't connect the wrongdoing. At least in my experience with my dog, even if it's after the action, if I ask him whether he ate the wrong food or whether he took my sock, I very easily get different reactions out of him and he knows both the word "food" and "sock" and gets excited about each typically. But if I ask "did you take my sock?" and "did you eat the other food?" with the exact same type of tone I get 2 very different reactions.

And he doesn't even play with socks at this point, he simply takes them and lays down with them Laughing

I'm not arguing on positive vs negative behavior, I'm commenting specifically on that I disagree that dogs are unable to connect wrongdoing after the fact. I don't think it's necessarily as direct as many people believe but I also don't believe that they are unable to do so.


You said you can catch your dog doing to things, one it knows it can do and one it knows it can't and if you respond the same, it'll still get excited and come to you with the sock, but walk away from the bowl. I'm saying that's because you taught your dog one of those is wrong and one is right. If you were to start having a negative reaction every time you saw your dog with the sock, he would start reacting the same way as when you correct him for eating out of the bowl.

As for the second post, it could be the result of you reinforcing/punishing those behaviors in the past and now he's associated those words and certain tones/posture/mood with certain reactions from you. Like he may only associate that tone and food with bad, but the connection isn't there with the word sock? I'm not pretending to be an expert on this topic, but from what I do know, that's what I'd be more inclined to believe.
_________________
UofMfan909 wrote:
also, yankee.. you usually have pretty good taste in things

Quote:
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
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