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Ataal


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm talking about casual playing here. I haven't had the time to be in any type of league/guild/whatever since I was in my late teens, maybe early twenties.
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, both SC2 and BW at higher levels was not just rushes. They are apparently sometimes, but those attacks were to throw your opponent off not a main strategy. I actually like BW competitive (even though Im seriously the worst).

I dont like SC2 as much because I dont like the unit replacements basically.

Marauder < Firebat (mostly because Marauder is just too good overall, not a fan of the Firebat either lol)

Hellion < Vulture (Vulture were so weirdly awesome, properly microed can take on some awesome armies, also getting 3 mines that do 125 to everything, why not lol)

Colossus < Reaver (same as Marauder basically, great range, decent speed, never buggy, etc)

Roach/Hydra < Hydra/Lurker (I dont mind the SC2 Hydra, hate the Roach)

etc Laughing

Oh and the biggest one

Thor <<< Goliath (Yuck on the Thor, Its just too big, and Im not that big of a fan of the Goliath like some either)
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HighHopes wrote:
Yea, both SC2 and BW at higher levels was not just rushes. They are apparently sometimes, but those attacks were to throw your opponent off not a main strategy. I actually like BW competitive (even though Im seriously the worst).

I dont like SC2 as much because I dont like the unit replacements basically.

Marauder < Firebat (mostly because Marauder is just too good overall, not a fan of the Firebat either lol)

Hellion < Vulture (Vulture were so weirdly awesome, properly microed can take on some awesome armies, also getting 3 mines that do 125 to everything, why not lol)

Colossus < Reaver (same as Marauder basically, great range, decent speed, never buggy, etc)

Roach/Hydra < Hydra/Lurker (I dont mind the SC2 Hydra, hate the Roach)

etc Laughing

Oh and the biggest one

Thor <<< Goliath (Yuck on the Thor, Its just too big, and Im not that big of a fan of the Goliath like some either)


I'm with you 100% on that front but you are forgetting the most obvious part of it all which was BW took substantially more skill than SC2. Micro was 10x harder (could only select 12 units at once) as was macro. It took more than just good strategy to be great at the game. Having said that, I still find watching SC2 games very enjoyable as there is still obviously a huge difference in talent between the pros and the joes.
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^Ehh, there are somethings I like, but I think if given a bit more power in BW, it would be a bit better.

But I dont like the amount of freedom you get with SC2 lol I wish there was a middle ground

ex:
I think 12 is too little but like the 200+ or whatever in SC2 is way too much, I think a good 20-24 unit count would be good.

1 building vs unlimited, thinking like 5 or so.

I just think if some things were so repetitive in BW, it could of made for a better game.

I do miss the micro tricks and needs of BW though. Stupid Goons (or most AI for that matter lol)[I never thought I would miss trying to force a tank up those tiny staircases from UMS games lol]. Muta stacking, Vulture Patrol Micro etc.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.


Eh, obviously it still plays a role but compared to BW it is not even close. You look at some of the top T players and some of them don't even have APM's above 110.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.


Eh, obviously it still plays a role but compared to BW it is not even close. You look at some of the top T players and some of them don't even have APM's above 110.


But things like controlling 12 units at once makes everything unnecessarily difficult. It'd take even more skill to control ONE unit at once. I mean, sure it takes more skill to hope across a river on tiny rocks, but why when I can use a bridge?
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.


Eh, obviously it still plays a role but compared to BW it is not even close. You look at some of the top T players and some of them don't even have APM's above 110.


But things like controlling 12 units at once makes everything unnecessarily difficult. It'd take even more skill to control ONE unit at once. I mean, sure it takes more skill to hope across a river on tiny rocks, but why when I can use a bridge?


Because from an audience stand point it is more fun to watch you try and hop across the river. Starcraft and Brood War are/were spectator sports in Korea. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy watching the pros play either. Call me a nerd if you want, but there is a ton of skill and strategy that goes into the game and I can certainly appreciate that. SC2 is the dumbed down game of Brood War. Sure it is nice for us players to be able to control massive amounts of units at once, but it takes a lot more skill to command several armies of 12. I agree with HH it would be better if they capped it at 20 or so units.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.


Eh, obviously it still plays a role but compared to BW it is not even close. You look at some of the top T players and some of them don't even have APM's above 110.


But things like controlling 12 units at once makes everything unnecessarily difficult. It'd take even more skill to control ONE unit at once. I mean, sure it takes more skill to hope across a river on tiny rocks, but why when I can use a bridge?


Because from an audience stand point it is more fun to watch you try and hop across the river. Starcraft and Brood War are/were spectator sports in Korea. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy watching the pros play either. Call me a nerd if you want, but there is a ton of skill and strategy that goes into the game and I can certainly appreciate that. SC2 is the dumbed down game of Brood War. Sure it is nice for us players to be able to control massive amounts of units at once, but it takes a lot more skill to command several armies of 12. I agree with HH it would be better if they capped it at 20 or so units.


But you understand what I mean when I say it is "unnecessarily difficult"? You can make anything more difficult and it will require people to use more skill. SC2 still requires an asinine amount of skill and focus, and the micro is always there, you just choose how much you do by style of play. Later in the game it's just a massive war, which in it's own way can be fun, but it doesn't require as much skill and mostly both players try to tank each other. But even then, depending on the composition of units, there's still plenty of micro involved.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.


Eh, obviously it still plays a role but compared to BW it is not even close. You look at some of the top T players and some of them don't even have APM's above 110.


But things like controlling 12 units at once makes everything unnecessarily difficult. It'd take even more skill to control ONE unit at once. I mean, sure it takes more skill to hope across a river on tiny rocks, but why when I can use a bridge?


Because from an audience stand point it is more fun to watch you try and hop across the river. Starcraft and Brood War are/were spectator sports in Korea. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy watching the pros play either. Call me a nerd if you want, but there is a ton of skill and strategy that goes into the game and I can certainly appreciate that. SC2 is the dumbed down game of Brood War. Sure it is nice for us players to be able to control massive amounts of units at once, but it takes a lot more skill to command several armies of 12. I agree with HH it would be better if they capped it at 20 or so units.


But you understand what I mean when I say it is "unnecessarily difficult"? You can make anything more difficult and it will require people to use more skill. SC2 still requires an asinine amount of skill and focus, and the micro is always there, you just choose how much you do by style of play. Later in the game it's just a massive war, which in it's own way can be fun, but it doesn't require as much skill and mostly both players try to tank each other. But even then, depending on the composition of units, there's still plenty of micro involved.


I understand, but I wouldn't necessarily call it unnecessary, I think commanding an army of 40 at a time is more plausible than commanding an army of 200 (in SC supply obviously). Eh, I think that is where the major difference comes in. These big battles now are just ball v. ball for the most part where as you would see some insane micro from BW. You still see it occasionally from some of the P players especially since they have the more conducive micro units (sentrys, stalkers, etc.) but on the whole you see a lot more just mass click A.

BTW do you play Moss? And if so what is your B.net ID?
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Mossburg wrote:
Micro is still well alive if you play aggressive and don't just sit and build just like your opponent.


Eh, obviously it still plays a role but compared to BW it is not even close. You look at some of the top T players and some of them don't even have APM's above 110.


But things like controlling 12 units at once makes everything unnecessarily difficult. It'd take even more skill to control ONE unit at once. I mean, sure it takes more skill to hope across a river on tiny rocks, but why when I can use a bridge?


Because its more impressive? Laughing I mean isnt that the point of competitive gaming? You are right, but if there was a game show about crossing a river, what do you use? A bridge or those tiny rocks? Well the rocks because everyone can cross a bridge.

Compare it to console vs PC shooters. Console shooters work because of autoaim, but thanks to it, lesser skilled players can basically do what pros do, (just with less consistency). But with PC, with no auto aim, its all dependent on your skill. Pros can pull off shots that I would need luck to do.

For a casual gameset, of course the SC2 style makes more sense. No reason to make player work abnormally when fighting against the computer or something. But competitively, you need to add in things that will separate the best from the good and the good from the bad.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BTW do you play Moss? And if so what is your B.net ID?


I'll send you a PM.

Quote:
Compare it to console vs PC shooters. Console shooters work because of autoaim, but thanks to it, lesser skilled players can basically do what pros do, (just with less consistency). But with PC, with no auto aim, its all dependent on your skill. Pros can pull off shots that I would need luck to do.


But that's taking it too far. So how much more "expert" would you want SC to go? How about ZERO use of keyboard, only mouse?

Quote:
For a casual gameset, of course the SC2 style makes more sense. No reason to make player work abnormally when fighting against the computer or something. But competitively, you need to add in things that will separate the best from the good and the good from the bad.


You're saying that as if there is no difference between a Silver and Diamond players. Even if you watch Masters League games a lot of players struggle with Macro later in games. Like I said, the game still requires an insane amount of skill, focus, and overall brain use; some things got simplified, but I don't see anything wrong with it, for pros or noobs. I guess for the 10 people in the world who supermastered all the tiny details of BW it may be bad, but who cares?
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont get me wrong, I dont think SC2 or even games like Halo are bad competitive games, I just recently watched both quite a bit at the last MLG. But I do believe that BW is a better competitive game due to having those repeat motions. Its much more mechanical, so its not as easy to master.

Thinking like Build Order losses. In a game like BW, you can have an advantageous Build Order, but if you cant even do it correctly, because lets say you cant control how a goon moves around, you will still lose. In SC2, its MUCH easier to control units since they arent stupid.
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The Third Rider


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally got my PC back and running. Smile I will admit, the only reason why I got into SC2 is because I somehow got caught up watching replays online and I got immediately hooked. Laughing
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sandwhich


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HighHopes wrote:
Yea, both SC2 and BW at higher levels was not just rushes. They are apparently sometimes, but those attacks were to throw your opponent off not a main strategy. I actually like BW competitive (even though Im seriously the worst).

I dont like SC2 as much because I dont like the unit replacements basically.

Marauder < Firebat (mostly because Marauder is just too good overall, not a fan of the Firebat either lol)

Hellion < Vulture (Vulture were so weirdly awesome, properly microed can take on some awesome armies, also getting 3 mines that do 125 to everything, why not lol)

Colossus < Reaver (same as Marauder basically, great range, decent speed, never buggy, etc)

Roach/Hydra < Hydra/Lurker (I dont mind the SC2 Hydra, hate the Roach)

etc Laughing

Oh and the biggest one

Thor <<< Goliath (Yuck on the Thor, Its just too big, and Im not that big of a fan of the Goliath like some either)


Man I love roaches. My favorite unit.
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