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The 3-4, Debunking the Myths
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 13904
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boodumy wrote:
How does “Split Pots in Texas Hold’em Poker” happen? I have a question about tiebreaker in Texas Holdem no limit. In the situation that two players are left. The board cards are 10, 9, 7,6, and 2 of mixed suits. Player one has 8 and 2 and player two has 8 and Ace. Obviously the best hand is “straight” made by the 8. My question is which player wins? Player one, because his sixth card is the ace? Or it is split because in such case the sixth card is not interfered.


Say what?
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BrettFavre004


Joined: 08 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boodumy wrote:
How does “Split Pots in Texas Hold’em Poker” happen? I have a question about tiebreaker in Texas Holdem no limit. In the situation that two players are left. The board cards are 10, 9, 7,6, and 2 of mixed suits. Player one has 8 and 2 and player two has 8 and Ace. Obviously the best hand is “straight” made by the 8. My question is which player wins? Player one, because his sixth card is the ace? Or it is split because in such case the sixth card is not interfered.


Actually, its player 2, when looking to the 6th card, aces are always low, so the 2 trumps the ace.
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Waldo


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmmk

Well this is a good opportunity to update it. No need to go thread hunting. Very Happy
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Waldo was right!
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Shaw66


Joined: 12 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, guys -

First, congratulations on the Super Bowl. I became a Rodgers fan when I visited Lambeau and watched him destroy my Bills. The guy is special. Matthews was crazy that day, too.

Second, Waldo has to redo his numbers, because the Bills clearly proved to be the exception to his rule. The Bills switched to the 3-4 in 2010 and got hammered. They went from 19th to 24th in yards allowed and from 16 to 28 in points allowed. Just brutal. They got better as the season progressed, but that was because they started playing more 4-3.

Oh, well. The Bills will recover, some day.
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Waldo


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaw66 wrote:
Well, guys -

First, congratulations on the Super Bowl. I became a Rodgers fan when I visited Lambeau and watched him destroy my Bills. The guy is special. Matthews was crazy that day, too.

Second, Waldo has to redo his numbers, because the Bills clearly proved to be the exception to his rule. The Bills switched to the 3-4 in 2010 and got hammered. They went from 19th to 24th in yards allowed and from 16 to 28 in points allowed. Just brutal. They got better as the season progressed, but that was because they started playing more 4-3.

Oh, well. The Bills will recover, some day.


The question with the Bills is why? In general when there were issues you could dig in and really ID issues. The Jets for example really switched without a NT, they were built to be a Tampa-2 team, about as far as you can be in defensive roster build from a Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 team, much of their issues stem from a near total lack of typical F-B 3-4 players. A different 3-4 scheme might have been more effective with what they had, but they made due and became a great defense in time.
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Shaw66


Joined: 12 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Waldo"][quote="Shaw66"]Well, guys -

First, congratulations on the Super Bowl. I became a Rodgers fan when I visited Lambeau and watched him destroy my Bills. The guy is special. Matthews was crazy that day, too.

Second, Waldo has to redo his numbers, because the Bills clearly proved to be the exception to his rule. The Bills switched to the 3-4 in 2010 and got hammered. They went from 19th to 24th in yards allowed and from 16 to 28 in points allowed. Just brutal. They got better as the season progressed, but that was because they started playing more 4-3.

Oh, well. The Bills will recover, some day.[/quote]

The question with the Bills is why? In general when there were issues you could dig in and really ID issues. The Jets for example really switched without a NT, they were built to be a Tampa-2 team, about as far as you can be in defensive roster build from a Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 team, much of their issues stem from a near total lack of typical F-B 3-4 players. A different 3-4 scheme might have been more effective with what they had, but they made due and became a great defense in time.[/quote]

I haven't studied the subject like you did, but here's a little "why":

They were a hybrid 3-4. They didn't have a space eating NT (except Troup, their second-round pick - he got some playing time, but as a rookie he wasn't couldn't enough to have an impact). Kyle Williams played there and made a lot of plays, but he wasn't the kind of guy who would consistently attract double teams, so the inside backers weren't getting free runs at anyone.

DEs were okay but didn't make an impact.

Linebackers were a problem. Aaron Schobel retired, and he was the DE most likely to be able to make the switch. Aaron Maybin, the Bills' #1 pick in 2009, was completely unable to take advantage of the opportunity - he has the raw measureables, but can't play a lick. Chris Kelsay, the other DE-turned OLB, was a nightmare playing in space. Every time the Packers got a receiver or a back isolated on him, Rodgers threw at him. Later in the season he was better, but he'll only survive there if the Bills have a truly disruptive OLB on the other side. (Maybe Merriman.)

Inside backers were a let down. Pozluzsny isn't Matthews or Hawk - he's a good player who needs guys around him to make plays. Andra Davis looked good but got hurt early.

Bills gave up 30 points in 4 or 5 out of the first 6 or 7 games. The 3-4 was more or less a disaster.

Year 2 will be better.
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incognito_man


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silliest thread bump ever?

lolz
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scarb24


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrettFavre004 wrote:
boodumy wrote:
How does “Split Pots in Texas Hold’em Poker” happen? I have a question about tiebreaker in Texas Holdem no limit. In the situation that two players are left. The board cards are 10, 9, 7,6, and 2 of mixed suits. Player one has 8 and 2 and player two has 8 and Ace. Obviously the best hand is “straight” made by the 8. My question is which player wins? Player one, because his sixth card is the ace? Or it is split because in such case the sixth card is not interfered.


Actually, its player 2, when looking to the 6th card, aces are always low, so the 2 trumps the ace.


Texas Hold'em is played with the best possible 5-card poker hand. You can play 2, 1 or none of your own cards. In this case, its a chopped pot.
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incognito_man


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarb24 wrote:
BrettFavre004 wrote:
boodumy wrote:
How does “Split Pots in Texas Hold’em Poker” happen? I have a question about tiebreaker in Texas Holdem no limit. In the situation that two players are left. The board cards are 10, 9, 7,6, and 2 of mixed suits. Player one has 8 and 2 and player two has 8 and Ace. Obviously the best hand is “straight” made by the 8. My question is which player wins? Player one, because his sixth card is the ace? Or it is split because in such case the sixth card is not interfered.


Actually, its player 2, when looking to the 6th card, aces are always low, so the 2 trumps the ace.


Texas Hold'em is played with the best possible 5-card poker hand. You can play 2, 1 or none of your own cards. In this case, its a chopped pot.


Nah, BF004 is right on this one. In the American Rules Texas Hold-em, he is right in asserting that Aces are, indeed, low.

BUT, we don't know who wins the pot without knowing the exact suit of the 6 on the board since that comes into play w/ one player having the straight AND a pair of 2's.

We'll need more info before we can help him.
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driftwood


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice, a hybrid 3-4 defense/texas hold'em thread...

this is the stuff legendary threads are made of!
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I Am Rodgers


Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
scarb24 wrote:
BrettFavre004 wrote:
boodumy wrote:
How does “Split Pots in Texas Hold’em Poker” happen? I have a question about tiebreaker in Texas Holdem no limit. In the situation that two players are left. The board cards are 10, 9, 7,6, and 2 of mixed suits. Player one has 8 and 2 and player two has 8 and Ace. Obviously the best hand is “straight” made by the 8. My question is which player wins? Player one, because his sixth card is the ace? Or it is split because in such case the sixth card is not interfered.


Actually, its player 2, when looking to the 6th card, aces are always low, so the 2 trumps the ace.


Texas Hold'em is played with the best possible 5-card poker hand. You can play 2, 1 or none of your own cards. In this case, its a chopped pot.


Nah, BF004 is right on this one. In the American Rules Texas Hold-em, he is right in asserting that Aces are, indeed, low.

BUT, we don't know who wins the pot without knowing the exact suit of the 6 on the board since that comes into play w/ one player having the straight AND a pair of 2's.

We'll need more info before we can help him.


No scarb was right. Hold-em is your best 5 cards. Your 6th and 7th cards don't matter. Maybe in other games of poker, but holdem is a 5 card game. It's a chopped pot. And he said the suits are mixed. That means that its impossible to have a flush so suits don't matter either. Having the straight is the best hand here. There is no such hand in holdem as a straight with a pair.
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Good thing for talky-talk Harbaugh he has an outstanding citizen/player like Aldon Smith on his team and not a classless hooligan like Clay Matthews.
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incognito_man


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Am Rodgers wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
scarb24 wrote:
BrettFavre004 wrote:
boodumy wrote:
How does “Split Pots in Texas Hold’em Poker” happen? I have a question about tiebreaker in Texas Holdem no limit. In the situation that two players are left. The board cards are 10, 9, 7,6, and 2 of mixed suits. Player one has 8 and 2 and player two has 8 and Ace. Obviously the best hand is “straight” made by the 8. My question is which player wins? Player one, because his sixth card is the ace? Or it is split because in such case the sixth card is not interfered.


Actually, its player 2, when looking to the 6th card, aces are always low, so the 2 trumps the ace.


Texas Hold'em is played with the best possible 5-card poker hand. You can play 2, 1 or none of your own cards. In this case, its a chopped pot.


Nah, BF004 is right on this one. In the American Rules Texas Hold-em, he is right in asserting that Aces are, indeed, low.

BUT, we don't know who wins the pot without knowing the exact suit of the 6 on the board since that comes into play w/ one player having the straight AND a pair of 2's.

We'll need more info before we can help him.


No scarb was right. Hold-em is your best 5 cards. Your 6th and 7th cards don't matter. Maybe in other games of poker, but holdem is a 5 card game. It's a chopped pot. And he said the suits are mixed. That means that its impossible to have a flush so suits don't matter either. Having the straight is the best hand here. There is no such hand in holdem as a straight with a pair.


Normally, yes. But who's to say what the best 5 cards are without knowing the suit of the 6?

The low-end of the straight might be the 6th and 7th cards for all we know. The 2's could come into play.

I'd like to help more, but we can't without more information at this point.
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BrettFavre004


Joined: 08 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

incognito_man wrote:
Normally, yes. But who's to say what the best 5 cards are without knowing the suit of the 6?

The low-end of the straight might be the 6th and 7th cards for all we know. The 2's could come into play.

I'd like to help more, but we can't without more information at this point.


This, it depends on the suit of the Ace, but chances are for player 2.
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mightybk


Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: De Pere, WI
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrettFavre004 wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
Normally, yes. But who's to say what the best 5 cards are without knowing the suit of the 6?

The low-end of the straight might be the 6th and 7th cards for all we know. The 2's could come into play.

I'd like to help more, but we can't without more information at this point.


This, it depends on the suit of the Ace, but chances are for player 2.


Long time poker player here....As long as there's no flush possibilities, both players have a 10-9-8-7-6 straight, the other cards are immaterial, because thats the best 5 card hand that each player can make. The suits of the cards don't mean squaduche for hand ranking. Its a chop.
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incognito_man


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mightybk wrote:
BrettFavre004 wrote:
incognito_man wrote:
Normally, yes. But who's to say what the best 5 cards are without knowing the suit of the 6?

The low-end of the straight might be the 6th and 7th cards for all we know. The 2's could come into play.

I'd like to help more, but we can't without more information at this point.


This, it depends on the suit of the Ace, but chances are for player 2.


Long time poker player here....As long as there's no flush possibilities, both players have a 10-9-8-7-6 straight, the other cards are immaterial, because thats the best 5 card hand that each player can make. The suits of the cards don't mean squaduche for hand ranking. Its a chop.


Not necessarily. It depends on who has the 'higher' 8 too.

The suit ranks are: Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs.

The 2's MIGHT not come into play depending on who has which 8. If the guy with Ace (low card) has a lower suited 8, things are simplified; but we don't know for sure until we have that info!!
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