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ICB's Training Camp Competition Previews: QB
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Which scenario is MOST likely?
O'Connell wins the #2 job, Gutierrez cut, Hoyer PS
45%
 45%  [ 14 ]
O'Connell wins the #2 job, Gutierrez wins the #3 job, Hoyer cut/PS
38%
 38%  [ 12 ]
Gutierrez wins the #2 job, O'Connell gets the #3 job
6%
 6%  [ 2 ]
Hoyer wins the #2 job, O'Connell gets the #3 job
9%
 9%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 31

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icecoldbruschi


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: ICB's Training Camp Competition Previews: QB Reply with quote

About this series:
This is the second annual in this series. I got a lot of feedback on the first one, so I look forward to this edition. I hope that you enjoy it or even that you criticize it, any discussion of this topic is welcome.

This looks to be one of the most competitive training camps in recent Patriots memory. There is plenty of quality depth at every position. However, not all of these great players will make the team; somebody will be cut. In each of the thirteen installments of this series, I will detail the battle occurring at the position. This could be a battle for a starting role, a backup spot or even just the right to be on the roster. These battles will start early enough to ensure that each position is accounted for up until the starting of training camp in July. I anticipate that the time between each position will be around 4 days or so, depending on the amount of discussion I anticipate on a certain topic.

Before getting into the QB position battle, let me first clarify a few things. You will not be seeing players such as Tom Brady, Wes Welker or Richard Seymour in this series. There jobs are secure, although I plan on going into them when I get to their positions.

I hope that these previews will give you an in-depth analysis. However, I would appreciate it if you added your own insight. These polls should give you something that should steer the conversation, but ultimately, these threads are meant for discussion.

QB: Kevin O’Connell vs. Matt Gutierrez vs. Brian Hoyer


Tom Brady is one of the best QB’s in all of NFL history. However, as we unfortunately saw last year, he is not invincible. After going down in game one of the regular season, we had to go to our backup, a battle which was decided last August. Despite struggling mightily in preseason, Matt Cassel’s experience in the system ultimately won him the spot over Matt Gutierrez and Kevin O’Connell. Cassel looked like a budding superstar on his way to leading the team to an 11-5 mark and showed us just how important backups can be. Only one play can change everything. However, with Cassel now in Kansas City, this battle becomes an issue again in this training camp. Fortunately, we have three viable candidates who all look capable of doing the job.



Kevin O’Connell has all that you look for in a franchise QB. He has the prototypical size (6-5, 225), he has great speed for the position (around a 4.6 40) and he has tremendous arm strength. O’Connell looked great in last year’s preseason, which had some in the forum even calling for him to start after Cassel’s early struggles. With one additional year learning the playbook and the system, things can only go up from here. He has a leg up on his competition and as of right now, it is certainly his job to lose.
Odds of winning the #2 job: 80%



We know very little about Matt Gutierrez, the Michigan turned Idaho State product. Oddly enough, his only true game experience has come on the kickoff coverage. Perhaps the main selling point for Gutierrez is his work ethic, which also happens to be one of Tom Brady’s greatest attributes as well. On multiple occasions, he has won the black practice jersey, signifying the hardest worker at practice for that particular week. Gutierrez too has great size and a pretty good arm by all accounts, so it will be interesting to see what happens with him. Somebody will need to look up the practice squad eligibility requirements, but I do not think he is eligible. Gutierrez’s experience in the system is a plus for him, but what can he show the coaching staff now that he hasn’t already showed them?
Odds of winning the #2 job: 19%



Anyone watching the second day of the NFL Draft watched MSU quarterback Brian Hoyer’s day unfold. He was featured and constantly interviewed during the day, but in the end, he was not drafted. However, 31 other team’s loss is our gain. Hoyer is a great competitor who can make most of the necessary throws needed. He has tremendous pocket awareness and has the ability to make some plays with his feet if he needs to. Hoyer had a down year by his standards and this led to many scouts doubting his mechanics. This is definitely something that can be fixed, and actually works in his favor to an extent. Belichick can take him on as a practice squad development player and allow him to learn and watch from one of the game’s best.
Odds of winning the #2 job: 1%

My Prediction: I believe that the backup role is O'Connell's to lose and he will not disappoint. I think that the Patriots will only keep 2 QB's on the active roster. Gutierrez will be cut, but will be by the phone in the event of an injury to one of the two ahead of him. Hoyer will spend the year on the practice squad.
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Donut


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think OC gets it. He is a good athlete. he has high intelligence. he is tall. took a yr to learn under brady(in the film room w/ Cassel)
I think he has the book down and out mperforms. he has learned from his errors when he tried to force some to my boy in preseason.
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redsoxsrule1437


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to agree with you here.

#2- Has to be OC. He has amazing potential, and a year of learning under his belt.

#3- Gutz. He has the edge on the play book and experience over Hoyer.

Hoyer will make the practice squad.
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tj177mmi


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redsoxsrule1437 wrote:
Have to agree with you here.

#2- Has to be OC. He has amazing potential, and a year of learning under his belt.

#3- Gutz. He has the edge on the play book and experience over Hoyer.

Hoyer will make the practice squad.


I believe the Pats will only carry 2 QBs on roster with Brady and O'Connell, and stash Hoyer away on the PS. A big reason will be the Patriots will carry Julian Edelman on the roster.
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icecoldbruschi


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tj177mmi wrote:
redsoxsrule1437 wrote:
Have to agree with you here.

#2- Has to be OC. He has amazing potential, and a year of learning under his belt.

#3- Gutz. He has the edge on the play book and experience over Hoyer.

Hoyer will make the practice squad.


I believe the Pats will only carry 2 QBs on roster with Brady and O'Connell, and stash Hoyer away on the PS. A big reason will be the Patriots will carry Julian Edelman on the roster.


I'll get to Edelman in a couple weeks, but that is not a big reason why I thought we will only have 2 QB's on the active roster...in fact, it didn't even cross my mind.

My main thinking is that hardly ever do you need to use the emergency 3rd QB in a game situation. I can't recall a single game where 2 QB's got injured in the same game.

If Brady or O'Connell do happen to get hurt, we can just call Gutierrez during the week to be the backup, which is what we did last season. I highly doubt that Gutierrez will be picked up this season after he is cut, when he wasn't last season. Although, with the Matt Cassel scenario, you never know.
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finn54


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OC is a near shoe-in for #2 job.

After that, i think Gutierrez has the upper hand right now. BB could still bring in a veteran QB.
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tj177mmi


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

icecoldbruschi wrote:
tj177mmi wrote:
redsoxsrule1437 wrote:
Have to agree with you here.

#2- Has to be OC. He has amazing potential, and a year of learning under his belt.

#3- Gutz. He has the edge on the play book and experience over Hoyer.

Hoyer will make the practice squad.


I believe the Pats will only carry 2 QBs on roster with Brady and O'Connell, and stash Hoyer away on the PS. A big reason will be the Patriots will carry Julian Edelman on the roster.


I'll get to Edelman in a couple weeks, but that is not a big reason why I thought we will only have 2 QB's on the active roster...in fact, it didn't even cross my mind.

My main thinking is that hardly ever do you need to use the emergency 3rd QB in a game situation. I can't recall a single game where 2 QB's got injured in the same game.

If Brady or O'Connell do happen to get hurt, we can just call Gutierrez during the week to be the backup, which is what we did last season. I highly doubt that Gutierrez will be picked up this season after he is cut, when he wasn't last season. Although, with the Matt Cassel scenario, you never know.


I meant exactly what you said. In an "in game emergency", Edelman, in my opinion, could hold the emergency QB title (without listing him unactive on the gameday roster). If one of them gets hurt, you call Gutz or whoever during the week and they'll be the backup or the starter the following week.
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hollywood14


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with ICB's scenario.

- O'Connell at number two

- Gutierrez released

- Hoyer on practice squad

I actually never understood why teams have three active quarterbacks week in and week out. I mean, what are the chances of that third QB actually playing? 1%? Going with Brady and O'Connell will allow us to carry another player that could have an impact for us on gameday. Plus we have 5 running backs, 6 cornerbacks, and 100 defensive tackles, so that extra spot should help.

I'm looking forward to all of these threads. I was going to start a 'State Of the Franchise' series, but I think I'll retract from it.
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icecoldbruschi


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hollywood14 wrote:
I agree with ICB's scenario.

- O'Connell at number two

- Gutierrez released

- Hoyer on practice squad

I actually never understood why teams have three active quarterbacks week in and week out. I mean, what are the chances of that third QB actually playing? 1%? Going with Brady and O'Connell will allow us to carry another player that could have an impact for us on gameday. Plus we have 5 running backs, 6 cornerbacks, and 100 defensive tackles, so that extra spot should help.

I'm looking forward to all of these threads. I was going to start a 'State Of the Franchise' series, but I think I'll retract from it.


Actually, the emergency QB only counts for the 53 man roster, but he does not count towards the 45 players that are actually able to play on gameday. Its sort of a loophole, as he can play in the 4th quarter if needed. But with injuries to other key positions, I figure it would be best if we used an inactive on a backup to another positon.

And also, do your series as well. I remember that it occurred at the same last season, so I really don't see a problem. Plus, they might be able to complement each other.
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finn54


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hollywood14 wrote:
I actually never understood why teams have three active quarterbacks week in and week out. I mean, what are the chances of that third QB actually playing? 1%?


It's insurance. If you only carry 2 QBs and one gets injured, you have to either promote the guy on the practice squad, or sign a guy off the street. The problems with that:

a) Signing a guy off the PS - if they were any good in the first place, why were they on the PS? It means they've cleared FA/waivers at some point during the season (i.e. the other 31 teams don't want him). Seeing as QB is such an integral position, do you really want an inexperienced, developmental (and lets face it, low quality) guy as one of your two? This PS guy becomes the #2, and it leaves you extremely threadbare and vulnerable.

b) Signing a guy off the street - they don't have very long to learn the playbook. They can only run a limited amount of plays if ever called upon.

It's also a specialist position: with most other positions, you can move a guy from another position to accommodate (i.e. moving Guyton to OLB last year, Lewis Sanders at S, AD moving inside etc). You can't move another guy into the QB role.

All in all, it's very risky in case of injury. If i were running a team, i would make sure my #2 had experience (in the system and/or in games), and then my #3 could be a developmental guy. If you've got a QB like Peyton Manning, you can sort of cheat and use the roster spot elsewhere as he's indestructible, but with Brady returning from injury, i don't want to risk it at all, even if i'm 99% confident he'll be fine. Does a #3 see the field that often? Not really. But are you ready to risk that? There's no point playing percentages with injuries, look at Brady's injury last year (and Donte Stallworth's lack of in 07). Anything can happen.
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tomski_29


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a lot of confidence Brady will be fine, but i would still like us to keep 3 QBs this season.

Brady
KO
Matty G

would be my depth chart, Gutz played well last preseason, better than Cassel, and i thought he was unlucky to be the odd man out, i don't think the same will happen this time, he knows the playbook and can make the throws so he should get the 3rd spot over Hoyer.
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icecoldbruschi


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

finn54, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. If Brady or O'Connell were to get injured, its going to be either Gutierrez or Hoyer getting the backup job. As I already said, Gutierrez has very little value across this league.

Last season proved that Belichick was more likely to use a guy accustomed to his system rather than sign a guy off the streets.

Bill Belichick had the entire offseason to sign a veteran QB to help with the backup responsibilities. He knew about Brady's coming back from injury. I believe this says a lot about the readiness of Kevin O'Connell and the faith he has in him should the unfortunate occur.
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finn54


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icecoldbruschi wrote:
finn54, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. If Brady or O'Connell were to get injured, its going to be either Gutierrez or Hoyer getting the backup job. As I already said, Gutierrez has very little value across this league.


I was just talking about the #3 in general. Hollywood said he didn't see the point in keeping 3 QBs on a roster. I think it's risky not to. PS squad guys are generally trash in the short term.

icecoldbruschi wrote:
Last season proved that Belichick was more likely to use a guy accustomed to his system rather than sign a guy off the streets.


I agree, and i made reference to that in my post: "If i were running a team, i would make sure my #2 had experience (in the system and/or in games)".

icecoldbruschi wrote:
Bill Belichick had the entire offseason to sign a veteran QB to help with the backup responsibilities. He knew about Brady's coming back from injury. I believe this says a lot about the readiness of Kevin O'Connell and the faith he has in him should the unfortunate occur.


If i were him i would have signed a vet. Then again, there is a reason why i'm watching the games and he's coaching them Laughing
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Grachuus


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tj177mmi wrote:
icecoldbruschi wrote:
tj177mmi wrote:
redsoxsrule1437 wrote:
Have to agree with you here.

#2- Has to be OC. He has amazing potential, and a year of learning under his belt.

#3- Gutz. He has the edge on the play book and experience over Hoyer.

Hoyer will make the practice squad.


I believe the Pats will only carry 2 QBs on roster with Brady and O'Connell, and stash Hoyer away on the PS. A big reason will be the Patriots will carry Julian Edelman on the roster.


I'll get to Edelman in a couple weeks, but that is not a big reason why I thought we will only have 2 QB's on the active roster...in fact, it didn't even cross my mind.

My main thinking is that hardly ever do you need to use the emergency 3rd QB in a game situation. I can't recall a single game where 2 QB's got injured in the same game.

If Brady or O'Connell do happen to get hurt, we can just call Gutierrez during the week to be the backup, which is what we did last season. I highly doubt that Gutierrez will be picked up this season after he is cut, when he wasn't last season. Although, with the Matt Cassel scenario, you never know.


I meant exactly what you said. In an "in game emergency", Edelman, in my opinion, could hold the emergency QB title (without listing him unactive on the gameday roster). If one of them gets hurt, you call Gutz or whoever during the week and they'll be the backup or the starter the following week.


I see where you're coming from, however if the emergency quarterback comes into the game the other two ahead of him on the depth chart may no longer play. So if you're keeping someone who's not really much of a quarterback as the emergency guy, what value are you getting out of it? Not as much.
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icecoldbruschi


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grachuus wrote:
I see where you're coming from, however if the emergency quarterback comes into the game the other two ahead of him on the depth chart may no longer play. So if you're keeping someone who's not really much of a quarterback as the emergency guy, what value are you getting out of it? Not as much.


I don't agree with the Edelman thing at all, but my understanding would be that tj177mmi feels that Edelman provides other things to the team (returning, special teams, offense), but in the case of injuries to the top 2 starters, he would be able to adequately fill in. He would also not take up space on the 53 man roster that would otherwise be used purely on the #3 QB.

And for the record, if this emergency QB comes into the game, the other 2 can't enter until the 4th quarter.
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