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Time to let it be known
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 9167
Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Time to let it be known Reply with quote

I'm a die hard Steelers fan that lives in Jacksonville FL. And as you probably know, I took some serious heat this past season.. twice. AND, I went to the regular season game at Heinz Field. [ouch]

Both games hurt severely but how I'd love to get this call back. Just posting this will help.



For those of you who say "it's not a penalty if it's not called." It's not. Wink But the NFL's Head of Officiating admitted that the call was wrong that ultimately altered the outcome of the game. Its certainly not justice for Steeler fans but this at least makes us feel sane for screaming "HOLDING!!" at the television at the top of our lungs.. Very Happy

Here's the link..

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08093/869712-66.stm


And for the others that would like to see the play again..

http://nicepickcowher.com/2008/04/03/nfl-refs-admit-steelers-got-hosed/

I'd like to be the first person on this thread to say that Garrard shook the pants off Tyrone Carter.


And thanks again to John Madden for helping with the graphics on the picture!!
_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!
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skaterbirdhouse


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Posts: 8610
Location: Jacksonville
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only penalty I see even maybe being happening would be a block to the back of Troy Polamolu. And from the looks of it it wouldn't even be that because he very well have just gotten by and our player would as result just be twisting around trying to make the block witch would've been a controversial penalty anyways.
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DLight03


Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's definitely holding. I think most of us know and will admit to that. The league even offered an official statement about it as you mentioned.

However, it doesn't change the fact the refs let it slide because they felt guilty for letting the Steelers take the lead in the final minutes in the first place. You know, the call where Hines Ward was literally dragging Brian Williams into the endzone by his face mask on 4th down, the play that would have given the Jags the ball on a turnover on downs with the lead. The call that somehow went against the defense and reset the downs.

I think it's pretty clear that call had a much larger impact on the game, since it not only would have resulted in a change of possession, but a 6 point swing and a change of the lead.

At the very worst the holding call allowed the opportunity for Jacksonville to kick a 3 point field goal at the end of the game.

The Ward miscall in the endzone resulted in an automatic first down on the goal line and subsequently 6 points...

Jacksonville doesn't even need to kick that field goal if the refs don't blow that call (which was a much, much bigger missed call).

The fact is, the refs choked on their whistles because of the mistake they made earlier that could have easily altered the outcome of the game, and they chose to make it "right."

Now, is that "right" for the refs to do that? Well, no, no it's not. But I don't think it makes any of the points about the Ward miscall in the endzone any less valid.


Last edited by DLight03 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 9167
Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skaterbirdhouse wrote:
The only penalty I see even maybe being happening would be a block to the back of Troy Polamolu. And from the looks of it it wouldn't even be that because he very well have just gotten by and our player would as result just be twisting around trying to make the block witch would've been a controversial penalty anyways.

Exclamation Question Exclamation Question Exclamation Question

The block in the back is the furthest from a penalty on this play!! Do you not see Barnes undoubtley holding Harrison!!



Harrison is changing direction and Barnes holds him from getting to Garrard. This is an outright hold. No doubt about it man.
_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 9167
Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DLight03 wrote:
There's definitely holding. I think most of us know and will admit to that. The league even offered an official statement about it.

However, it doesn't change the fact the refs let it slide because they felt guilty for letting the Steelers take the lead in the final minutes in the first place. You know, the call where Hines Ward was literally dragging Brian Williams into the endzone by his face mask on 4th down, the play that would have given the Jags the ball on a turnover on downs with the lead.

Good points. That face mask play was terrible. I hate even seeing those types of plays on the field.

Either way you look at it though. The holding "no call" was NOT a compensation "no call" for the Jags. The holding was a much more critical play at a much more critical time.
_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!


Last edited by bbelan2343 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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DLight03


Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, it's no compensation. I don't think it's right.

I think we can agree all around it was a pretty poorly officiated game.

But I wouldn't say for a second the holding call was more critical.

The holding call, while bad and at a later point in the game, only resulted in 3 points.

The Hines Ward miscall resulted in 6 points (with the chance at eight), and directly forced Jacksonville into the position where holding was not called on a final drive.

The only way that the holding non-call can be considered more critical, is that it ultimately lead to the game-deciding points.

But keep in mind, if that holding IS actually called.. then we're back in the same situation, except it's the Hines Ward miscall that resulted in the game-deciding points.

It's because of this I think it's a win less argument for both sides.


Last edited by DLight03 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 9167
Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DLight03 wrote:
Yup, it's no compensation. I don't think it's right.

I think we can agree all around it was a pretty poorly officiated game.

But I wouldn't say for a second the holding call was more critical.

The holding call, while bad and at a later point in the game, only resulted in 3 points.

The Hines Ward miscall resulted in 6 points.

If the Jaguars needed 7 points and "that" holding call occurred and inevitably gave the Jaguars the winning 7 instead of the winning 3, there is NO WAY you are telling me that the holding call was a bigger play.

Even after the Garrard run occurred the Jags played the clock, and played for 3. It was a momentum changer and potential possession changer.
_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!


Last edited by bbelan2343 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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skaterbirdhouse


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Location: Jacksonville
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude I've gotta stick up for my team. Very Happy. But Dlight is right. It wasn't like the officials only made bad calls benefiting us. I was absolutely stunned when they called pass interference on B-Williams.
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 9167
Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skaterbirdhouse wrote:
Dude I've gotta stick up for my team. Very Happy. But Dlight is right. It wasn't like the officials only made bad calls benefiting us. I was absolutely stunned when they called pass interference on B-Williams.

Like DLight03 said.. It was a TERRIBLE officated game. Absolutely horrid.
_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!
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DLight03


Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbelan2343 wrote:
DLight03 wrote:
Yup, it's no compensation. I don't think it's right.

I think we can agree all around it was a pretty poorly officiated game.

But I wouldn't say for a second the holding call was more critical.

The holding call, while bad and at a later point in the game, only resulted in 3 points.

The Hines Ward miscall resulted in 6 points.

If the Jaguars needed 7 points and "that" holding call occurred and inevitably gave the Jaguars the winning 7 instead of the winning 3, there is NO WAY you are telling me that the holding call was a bigger play.

Even after the Garrard run occurred the Jags played the clock, and played for 3. It was a momentum changer and potential possession changer.


The non-hold call put the ball on around the 10 yard line with a first down after Garrard's run.

The Hines Ward miscall put the ball on the goal line with a first down.

Both plays were on 4th down.

And to say the Garrard run was a momentum changer and a possession changer is no different than the Hines Ward situation. I'm pretty certain that Pitt taking the lead as a result of that call was a pretty huge momentum changer. And because it, too, was on 4th down, that's also a change of possession.

The only difference between the two calls is this:

Hines Ward call resulted in 6 points, and the Steelers attempted to make it 8.
Holding non-call resulted in 3 points, but could have potentially been 7 if needed.

But once again, if the holding is called and Jacksonville loses the game, then the game-deciding points were decided by the Hines Ward play that turned a 4th and goal into a 1st and goal on the goal line and resulted directly in a change in possession, and the lead.

the fact is, both penalties would have resulted in a change of possession, both penalties resulted in a change in the lead and both penalties were huge shifts in momentum.

the difference, however, comes from the fact that Jacksonville only received 3 points from the holding call, and the Steelers received 6 points. that is a fact. Even if you consider the fact that Jacksonville played for a field goal instead of a touchdown, I would still rather have the ball on the goal line on first down than I would on the 10 yard line, which is also a big difference between the plays.

so once again, it's the same situation. Whoever lost that game would have been complaining equally.


Last edited by DLight03 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:17 am; edited 5 times in total
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skaterbirdhouse


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbelan2343 wrote:
DLight03 wrote:
Yup, it's no compensation. I don't think it's right.

I think we can agree all around it was a pretty poorly officiated game.

But I wouldn't say for a second the holding call was more critical.

The holding call, while bad and at a later point in the game, only resulted in 3 points.

The Hines Ward miscall resulted in 6 points.

If the Jaguars needed 7 points and "that" holding call occurred and inevitably gave the Jaguars the winning 7 instead of the winning 3, there is NO WAY you are telling me that the holding call was a bigger play.

Even after the Garrard run occurred the Jags played the clock, and played for 3. It was a momentum changer and potential possession changer.



That pass to Ward could've easily been an INT if Wards WHOLE hand wasn't in B-Williams face mask. And that would've resulted in a 15 yard penalty if it was called right. From there a number of things could've happened. It was probably more of a momentum changing play then the Garrard play.
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
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Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward "No Call": 6:32 4th QTR ~ Jax 28 ~ Pitt 23

At the start of the play it was 4th and 1 @ the goal line.

    What resulted from the play: Fresh set of downs from the goal line. A tough play against the Jaguars defense. (NO DOUBT ABOUT IT)
    What should of happened: 4th and 16 @ the Jaguars 16.
    Jax best case scenario: Turnover on downs. (Missed field goal or TOD)
    Pitt best case scenario: TD to take the lead; FG to bring it within 2



Garrard "No Call": 1:56 4th QTR ~ Jax 28 ~ Pitt 29

At the start of the play it was 4th and 2 @ Pitt 43.

    What resulted from the play: 1st and 10 from the Pitt 11. Under 2 minutes to play
    What should of happened: 4th and 12 from the Jax 47.
    Jax best case scenario: No holding call
    Pitt best case scenario: Holding call. Pinning the Jaguars back into Jacksonville territory and forcing them having to go for it on 4th and long.

_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!


Last edited by bbelan2343 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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bbelan2343


Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 9167
Location: Steeler's Nation - On the Stairway to Seven
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry fellas.. If there was going to be a dispute on this post, I didn't think this would be it. I don't see or understand the comparison..
_________________
Irish 11 wrote:
If the Ravens were playing Al Qaida, I'd be all "Go Osama!"
flyers0909 wrote:
Morons at the dollar store are selling dinosaurs for a buck

Let's go Pirates!!
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skaterbirdhouse


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did the Williams hold come in? they wouldn't offset because Williams never held Ward had his hand in his face mask!
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DLight03


Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hines Ward penalty would not have offset under any circumstances.

This is a common misconception.

Hines Ward grabbing and twisting the face mask of Brian Williams is a major versus a minor penalty. In the event of a major versus minor penalty, the minor penalty is ignored. Throw on top the fact that there's huge questions as to whether Brian Williams did anything at all and there's even further reason to believe the situation is the same (the only reason he touched Ward was because Ward was dragging him by his face mask into the endzone, and I don't think I have to tell you what happens if someone is dragging you by your facemask and you don't grab on to something. You'll fall and twist your neck.)

If you have any questions about the face mask what so ever, I have the entire video clip saved and recorded ready to upload somewhere at your demand. Slow motion and all. Hines Ward leads with his hand on Brian Williams' face mask, literally pulls his head down and twists it while pulling out and trying to grab the ball. Brian Williams even has one hand flailing in the air behind him while the other hand tries to hold on.

Under no circumstances would the play have resulted in 4th and 16 either. Jacksonville would not have accepted the penalty. Jacksonville would have declined the penalty and taken the turnover on downs.
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