You are currently viewing the old forums. We have upgraded to a new NFL Forum.
This old forum is being left as a read-only archive.
Please update your bookmarks to our new forum at forums.footballsfuture.com.


 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Its a SHAME...
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Dallas Cowboys
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
thisnamesucks


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4856
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgiaBoy367 wrote:
NO CB is worth that high of a pick.


then who is worth taking that high? RB is the easiest position to adjust too and a lot of times teams find better talent late anyways, so when you really think about it why did 3 of the top 5 teams take an RB this year? also, the bust ratio of QB's taken in the top 5 just over the last 10 years is astounding, so QB should be out too huh? bottom line is any player/position could be arguably not worth taking that high......but i'd sooner take CB dubbed the "best athlete in the draft" over most other positions.

and to the person would wanted Suggs, had we taken him then over Newman, Ware wouldn't have been the choice this year. it would have either been Spears at 11 instead of 20, or a trade down.

what i really can't wait to see is that after this year, with a better pass-rush and a complete secondary, when Newman tears it up, who of the people bashing him now.....will change their story
_________________

member#1877
Ware:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zero_system


Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 1623
Location: NC
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojans14 wrote:
Quote:
Again.. Newman at the time was regarded to have a lot of talent (he still does) just like the rest of those guys you're talking about. Drafting rookies is a risk in any round and no one knows who could have been what.


Newman played in a weak Big 12, for WR's during his career. Look at who he matched up against...its not pretty.

Hes a talent, yes. But certainley not top 10.

Dont wanna run the 3-4? Fine by me. Robertson plays just fine in the 4-3, so does Suggs.

Kevin Williams is a Pro Bowl DT in the 4-3. Front 7 is much more important than secondary, as far as Im concerned.

Dont like those guys, how about a franchise QB? Isnt that spot important? Id take Palmer or Leftwhich in a heartbeat, and I know many of us Cowboys fans desperatley wanted to draft one of those 2, because we all knew QC wasnt the answer.

Quote:
I'm just wondering who we would've had playing his spot, had we not picked him... Derek Ross?


How about Antoine Winfeld? We could have had him easily, at the time JJ didnt want to pay Newman and Winfeld. Id be just fine with him.


You going to say the same about Demarcus Ware? At the time, the Cowboys needed a solid CB and they drafted one in Newman.
_________________
"Winners never quit and quitters never win." -- Vince Lombardi

"Boom! Here comes the boom! Ready or not, here comes the boys from the South!" -- P.O.D.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Trojans14


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 1304
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that RB or CB arent, but I tend to agree with GeorgiaBoy on this one.

In my mind if you dont have a franchise QB and you have the chance to take one, then that is priority #1.

Next would be OL/DL. Any team worth their salt has solid line play.

Then Id look at getting WR/LB.

Secondary/RB/TE would be at the end of my list for the top 10.

UNLESS ITS a once in a lifetime prospect:

Deion Sanders
Champ Bailey
Charles Woodson
Bo Jackson
Hershel Walker
Barry Sanders
Roy Williams


Please dont give me the "you never know" when your drafting excuse with these guys.

Everyone knew each one would be a perennial Pro Bowl player. No one knew if Newman would be.

Quote:
You going to say the same about Demarcus Ware? At the time, the Cowboys needed a solid CB and they drafted one in Newman.


Again, there is nothing wrong with Newman...he's a talented player and will have a bounce back year.

BUT PEOPLE we're talking about a top 5 pick here. Dont waste it on a guy like Newman who had lots of question marks.

He had:

Age Issues- one of the oldest players in the draft.

Shoulder Issues- Almost had to have surgery after he got drafted.

Size- He is and always will be undersized

Was that really the guy you wanted to spend you top 5 pick on.

I sure didnt.

Now if we landed him @ 15-20 range than its a solid pick.

But @ 5, you need franchise talent...Newman doesnt fit that bill.

Palmer
Andre Johnson
Robertson
Suggs
Leftwhich
Kevin Williams

they all do.

Thats my point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trojans14


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 1304
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a
Quote:
nd to the person would wanted Suggs, had we taken him then over Newman, Ware wouldn't have been the choice this year. it would have either been Spears at 11 instead of 20, or a trade down.


No if we drafted Suggs, than we probably would have gone after a WR.

Mike Williams or Braylon Edwards and then gotten Spears @ 20.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thisnamesucks


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4856
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojans14 wrote:

In my mind if you dont have a franchise QB and you have the chance to take one, then that is priority #1.


so you were quite upset when we passed not once but twice on Aaron Rodgers? who would you have not drafted between Ware and Spears then to get him? or, had Mike Williams been there at 11, would you have still put the franchise QB (Rodgers) ahead of him on your board?
_________________

member#1877
Ware:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thisnamesucks


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4856
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojans14 wrote:
a
Quote:
nd to the person would wanted Suggs, had we taken him then over Newman, Ware wouldn't have been the choice this year. it would have either been Spears at 11 instead of 20, or a trade down.


No if we drafted Suggs, than we probably would have gone after a WR.

Mike Williams or Braylon Edwards and then gotten Spears @ 20.


i doubt it, not with BP drafting. he's not one to give up picks, and we would have had to give up more without getting anything back, without a third it would have taken our 11th PLUS our second rounder (if not more) to move up for Edwards, and probably even the one spot for Williams (who, by how fast the Lions called his name, were unwilling to trade anyhow)
_________________

member#1877
Ware:


Last edited by thisnamesucks on Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zero_system


Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 1623
Location: NC
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojans14 wrote:
Not that RB or CB arent, but I tend to agree with GeorgiaBoy on this one.

In my mind if you dont have a franchise QB and you have the chance to take one, then that is priority #1.

Next would be OL/DL. Any team worth their salt has solid line play.

Then Id look at getting WR/LB.

Secondary/RB/TE would be at the end of my list for the top 10.

UNLESS ITS a once in a lifetime prospect:

Deion Sanders
Champ Bailey
Charles Woodson
Bo Jackson
Hershel Walker
Barry Sanders
Roy Williams


Please dont give me the "you never know" when your drafting excuse with these guys.

Everyone knew each one would be a perennial Pro Bowl player. No one knew if Newman would be.

Quote:
You going to say the same about Demarcus Ware? At the time, the Cowboys needed a solid CB and they drafted one in Newman.


Again, there is nothing wrong with Newman...he's a talented player and will have a bounce back year.

BUT PEOPLE we're talking about a top 5 pick here. Dont waste it on a guy like Newman who had lots of question marks.

He had:

Age Issues- one of the oldest players in the draft.

Shoulder Issues- Almost had to have surgery after he got drafted.

Size- He is and always will be undersized

Was that really the guy you wanted to spend you top 5 pick on.

I sure didnt.

Now if we landed him @ 15-20 range than its a solid pick.

But @ 5, you need franchise talent...Newman doesnt fit that bill.

Palmer
Andre Johnson
Robertson
Suggs
Leftwhich
Kevin Williams

they all do.

Thats my point.


No one KNEW. They thought. No one ever knows about these things. There have been so many busts with players who were supposed to be Pro-Bowl caliber players and they bombed. If Terence Newman becomes a Pro-Bowl caliber CB, would he not then be a franchise player?? Wait a few years before you really pass judgement on players and drafts.
_________________
"Winners never quit and quitters never win." -- Vince Lombardi

"Boom! Here comes the boom! Ready or not, here comes the boys from the South!" -- P.O.D.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Trojans14


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 1304
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so you were quite upset when we passed not once but twice on Aaron Rodgers? who would you have not drafted between Ware and Spears then to get him? or, had Mike Williams been there at 11, would you have still put the franchise QB (Rodgers) ahead of him on your board?


I was not upset at all. I dont consider Rodgers to be a franchise signal caller.

OR Alex Smith for that matter. Both are second tier QB's in a ultra-weak QB class in my mind. If either one approach's even a Jeff Garcia type career Id be surprised.

I dont consider Carr/Losman/Harrington/Smith/Rodgers/Boller franchise signal callers either.

Since the 2002 draft, the best 2 signal callers both came from the 2003 draft.

Thats why IM pissed about passing those 2 up for Newman.

Id rank the first round QB's something like this(mind you 4 havent even played a full game yet.)

1.) Carson Palmer

2.) Byron Leftwhich

3.) Ben Roethlisberger

4.) Eli Manning

5.) Philip Rivers

6.) David Carr

7.) Rex Grossman

8.) JP Losman

9.) Aaron Rodgers

10.) Alex Smith

11.) Kyle Boller

12.) Joey Harrington


So when we had a chance @ either of the 2 best QB prospects to come out in the last 4 drafts, its a little disapointing to end up with a second tier CB instead.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thisnamesucks


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4856
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojans14 wrote:

I was not upset at all. I dont consider Rodgers to be a franchise signal caller.

OR Alex Smith for that matter. Both are second tier QB's in a ultra-weak QB class in my mind. If either one approach's even a Jeff Garcia type career Id be surprised.

I dont consider Carr/Losman/Harrington/Smith/Rodgers/Boller franchise signal callers either.

Since the 2002 draft, the best 2 signal callers both came from the 2003 draft.

Thats why IM pissed about passing those 2 up for Newman.

Id rank the first round QB's something like this(mind you 4 havent even played a full game yet.)

1.) Carson Palmer

2.) Byron Leftwhich

3.) Ben Roethlisberger

4.) Eli Manning

5.) Philip Rivers

6.) David Carr

7.) Rex Grossman

8.) JP Losman

9.) Aaron Rodgers

10.) Alex Smith

11.) Kyle Boller

12.) Joey Harrington


So when we had a chance @ either of the 2 best QB prospects to come out in the last 4 drafts, its a little disapointing to end up with a second tier CB instead.


IMO Carr doesn't belong any higher than Harrington, Boller is probably worst on that list, and i'm pretty sure Ramsey was a late first round pick in '02 (could be wrong) and IMO is better than either Carr or Harrington (if you go by w/l ratio, his is better) also, Eli didn't play well when he played, and IMO will be a total bust (even if it's only because they gave up so much to get him, and is expected to be just like his bro) and Losman hasn't played enough to prove he's worth it. i think that Alex Smith is the real deal, i was high on him before he started getting all the love just a bit before the draft, Rodgers i have no idea, personally wouldn't have "wanted" either. Leftwitch and Palmer may have been the best 2 QB's to come out since 02, but IMO they weren't the best 2 players, or even high on my list of choices to bring in. we NEEDED a CB, QB we still had to find out about.....and Quincy did win 10 games in his final season with the team (first full season if i remember correctly) plus he had 3 oc's in his first 3 years. he was better than given credit for.
_________________

member#1877
Ware:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trojans14


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 1304
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
NEEDED a CB, QB we still had to find out about.....and Quincy did win 10 games in his final season with the team (first full season if i remember correctly) plus he had 3 oc's in his first 3 years. he was better than given credit for.


Shouldnt draft on need only. BPA, and need. Newman didnt fit that bill, but of course I dont think a CB should be a top 10 pick.

Carr is much better than Harrington, who in my mind is by far the biggest bust on this list.

Losman/Rivers are still inigmas, but I do like each one. Rivers more at this point.

I like Eli's deep ball a lot, its pretty. He should be a very solid QB, no Peyton...but who is.

Ben is a leader...wont put up flashy #'s, but will make the little plays that win games.

I think Grossman can jump up this list fast. I really like his competitiveness and think he'll have a solid career.

Alex Smith in no way shape or form strikes me as a franchise signal caller.

HE will be a BUST. I put my personal gurantee on that. He not only looks soft as hell, but his arm-strength is scant at best and he had only ONE solid year in a weak conference. He will be in the Harrington/Boller bracket very soon.

Rodgers is "IFFY" I have yet to see a Jeff Tedford QB explode recently, maybe Rodgers will be the one to do it.

We'll see.

Palmer = "Next Aikman"

Id sure like that guy wearing a Star on his helmet! Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankCastle51573


Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1356
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn dude, it happened, I don't see why you all have to argue over something that is so far back.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
thisnamesucks


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4856
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trojans14 wrote:

Shouldnt draft on need only. BPA, and need. Newman didnt fit that bill, but of course I dont think a CB should be a top 10 pick.

Carr is much better than Harrington, who in my mind is by far the biggest bust on this list.

Losman/Rivers are still inigmas, but I do like each one. Rivers more at this point.

I like Eli's deep ball a lot, its pretty. He should be a very solid QB, no Peyton...but who is.

Ben is a leader...wont put up flashy #'s, but will make the little plays that win games.

I think Grossman can jump up this list fast. I really like his competitiveness and think he'll have a solid career.

Alex Smith in no way shape or form strikes me as a franchise signal caller.

HE will be a BUST. I put my personal gurantee on that. He not only looks soft as hell, but his arm-strength is scant at best and he had only ONE solid year in a weak conference. He will be in the Harrington/Boller bracket very soon.


Rodgers is "IFFY" I have yet to see a Jeff Tedford QB explode recently, maybe Rodgers will be the one to do it.

We'll see.

Palmer = "Next Aikman"

Id sure like that guy wearing a Star on his helmet! Cool


Newman was a need, and according to many he was the BPA (if not in the entire draft) remember this is then, not how things have worked out since then
IMO Carr is no better than Harrington, aside from the fact that he seems to enjoy playing, he's had far better talent than Harrington and hasn't done anything with his team either
Eli does have a nice deep ball, but his mechanics aren't sound. and while he's no Peyton, and no one is.....for what the Giants gave up for him he better be closer than any other QB can be
Rivers may not even play for another year, so he shouldn't even be on the list
you're right about Ben, he'll never put up numbers but he'll win....and always be under-rated at the position, though for somewhat good reason i suppose.

Alex Smith IMO won't be a bust if the Niners get a team around him. and lets be honest, your guarantee doesn't mean anything, who are you to say who will and won't be a star? it's just an opinion like anyone elses, and it makes no nevermind to me. i believe Smith will quiet all the doubters with-in 5 years. i see the niners as a perrenial play-off team behind him in the future, again.....if they build a team around him
Rodgers i'm unsure.....IMO he had no business falling to 24, at the same time there must have been a reason for it. if he can't learn under Favre, and become atleast a better than average QB then he'll be a bust for sure

and Palmer being the next Aikman isn't saying much (not that i'm bashing Aikman) if the Bengals can't get the next Irvin and Emmitt to go along-side him (as well as a top-tier defense) he won us 3 Superbowls so in that aspect he was a great QB (QB's need to win, and he did) but his numbers alone weren't even close to spectacular, certainly not HOF numbers without the SB wins
_________________

member#1877
Ware:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trojans14


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 1304
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Damn dude, it happened, I don't see why you all have to argue over something that is so far back.


Frankie my man, its a forum...we're discussing the Cowboys, thats all here.

thisnamesucks posted:

Quote:

Newman was a need, and according to many he was the BPA (if not in the entire draft) remember this is then, not how things have worked out since then
IMO Carr is no better than Harrington, aside from the fact that he seems to enjoy playing, he's had far better talent than Harrington and hasn't done anything with his team either
Eli does have a nice deep ball, but his mechanics aren't sound. and while he's no Peyton, and no one is.....for what the Giants gave up for him he better be closer than any other QB can be
Rivers may not even play for another year, so he shouldn't even be on the list
you're right about Ben, he'll never put up numbers but he'll win....and always be under-rated at the position, though for somewhat good reason i suppose.

Alex Smith IMO won't be a bust if the Niners get a team around him. and lets be honest, your guarantee doesn't mean anything, who are you to say who will and won't be a star? it's just an opinion like anyone elses, and it makes no nevermind to me. i believe Smith will quiet all the doubters with-in 5 years. i see the niners as a perrenial play-off team behind him in the future, again.....if they build a team around him
Rodgers i'm unsure.....IMO he had no business falling to 24, at the same time there must have been a reason for it. if he can't learn under Favre, and become atleast a better than average QB then he'll be a bust for sure

and Palmer being the next Aikman isn't saying much (not that i'm bashing Aikman) if the Bengals can't get the next Irvin and Emmitt to go along-side him (as well as a top-tier defense) he won us 3 Superbowls so in that aspect he was a great QB (QB's need to win, and he did) but his numbers alone weren't even close to spectacular, certainly not HOF numbers without the SB wins


Your right about Newman being a "Need" because he played CB. Your also right that some considered him the top player in the draft.

My Point is this.

1.) YOU NEVER DRAFT A CB in the top 10 unless he is cant miss. There have been about 4 of those guys in the last 20 years. Newman certainley wasnt one.

2.) He was the olderst player to go in the first. He was almost 3 years older than Suggs. That should put up huge red-flags as is.

3.) Their was great talent, (I wont say superior to Newman, although I felt that way) at other positions of "need" that are more important than CB.


The Carr/Harrington debate can be made I guess. I feel Carr is better, but he definitley hasnt done enough to prove he's franchise yet either.

Rivers is on my list, b/c all the QB's from 2002 are(might have forgotten Ramsey) so I'm predicting where I think they WILL fall.

Your right my gurantee doesnt mean anything, Im just saying Its my opinion that the guy wont amount to a hill of beans as far as being an NFL QB is concerned...and that I gurantee. I watched Smith play, he as much a product of the "system" that I have ever seen. He wont bust in the way Ryan Leaf did...he is a smart kid and will be able do just about anything outside the football world, but I dont think he has the grit or intangibles it takes to make it. Again, this is WAY to early to call...but I feel strongly about my stance on Smith.

As far as Aikman is concerned, if you have ever read anything from Jimmy Johnson you would know that Aikman could have had Marino like numbers if he let the reigns down. But Jimmy wanted a controlled offense run-oriented, and let Aikman make the plays when he needed to. It certainley wasnt West-Coast, or Fun and Gun, or Dolphin Pass Happy.

Just look at what Marino did once Jimmy took over. Its all relative, and thats why Im much more concerned with winning and not stats as far as QB's are concerned. Much of their stats are based on the scheme's they use, the truly great QB's lead their teams to Super Bowls and make the Big Play when it counts.

Thats why Aikman and Brady for that matter are top 5 QB's. Id take either one over Peyton or Marino anyday of the week and twice on Sunday!

Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AmericasTeam


Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 1212
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As far as Aikman is concerned, if you have ever read anything from Jimmy Johnson you would know that Aikman could have had Marino like numbers if he let the reigns down. But Jimmy wanted a controlled offense run-oriented, and let Aikman make the plays when he needed to.



Thank god someone realizes this. I've been saying this to the small number of people who have mocked Aikman's stats for years.

Way to go, T14.
_________________


Many thanks to SilverStar for the sig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Trojans14


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 1304
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thank god someone realizes this. I've been saying this to the small number of people who have mocked Aikman's stats for years.

Way to go, T14.


Anytime, AmTeam.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Dallas Cowboys All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group