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Dungy's Last chance to put a good defense on the field?

 
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Canadian_Patriot


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: Dungy's Last chance to put a good defense on the field? Reply with quote

Do you guys think he should be fired at the end of the year if your defense doesn''t improve? I mean, the guys a defensive coach..and this is like his 4th year in indy isn't it? When are you guys gonna get sick of it...or are you content with letting the offense trying to win it....
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inkwell


Joined: 14 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Colts D for the first time last year looked systemically like a Dungy defense. They should finally be able to put pressure on the pocket without blitzing too much and they should finally be able to play a true cover two most of the time. It HAS shown progress but without an influx of talent, any coach is limited in what he can do. The Colts, for better or worse are committed to their offense eating up the lion's share of the cap. With that restriction in place, the defense can only make so much improvement. Dungy and Polian are in synch and bring in the kinds of players their system requires. They need to get lucky and have a couple guys drafted down low surprise and become impact players on D. That is not easy but it is the only way the talent will substantially improve without robbing the offense. As long as this defense creates turnover, it is doing enough for me. It wont help against your Pats because they minimize turnovers but turnovers are the lifeblood of a Dungy defense.

I did not support his hiring but he has done a good job and I dont think he should be fired at the end of the coming season.
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bigred


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with them bringing in the kind of players they need for "their system" is that THEIR SYSTEM ISN'T WORKING. How many years does it take to see that? Just because Dungy hit gold in TB doesn't mean it will always work....he and numbnuts Polian should STOP trying to force a square peg into a round hole already. Course Polian's hideously overrated drafting hasn't helped.

Basically they are both good, but it might be time to say buh-bye and take our chances elsewhere. I said when Dungy was hired that he's the kind of guy who can make a bad team good but not take a team the whole way.
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Canadian_Patriot


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea thats what i was thinking... We must remember with Dungy that he was working with a lot of great players that were in there Primes at that time...Sapp,Brooks,Lynch,Rice....

I just thought that if it didn't work out this year that maybe the better idea would be to go with a Great Defensive coordinator and higher another head coach...Maybe of the - Vermeil sorts ( only not quite as crazy )..someone thats more of a leader then dungy..( not saying hes not ) , just more so.
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inkwell


Joined: 14 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree totally. His system works. Too many of his disciples are running it throughout the league. We dont have the horses to run it or any other defense. Without sacrificing offensive talent, we cant bring in the kind of talent it takes. I dislike Polian but I disagree with your assessment of his draft skills. His son on the other hand has overseen the pro scouting during a period of incredibly inept handling of bringing in pro talent. I was shocked when he was recently promoted. I have no problem whatsoever with this management's refusal to draft players like Crowder who dont meet their character requirements, no matter how well he might have filled a need at MLB.

When Dungy was hired I was not in favor of it. I felt and still feel this team has too many strong silent types in leadership roles. But Dungy has succeeded by expecting a certain behavior and production and treating his players like men. Personally I think that overrates the maturity of many of them but it is his way and it works for him. The offense is young and if they continue to manage the cap as they have, they will have a few more years to build, or luck into, a defense that can hold up its own end. Between that, and the unlikeliness of NE maintaining its current level of mastery over the Colts and the rest of the league, they are well within the bounds of expectations to maintain the O and try to build enough of a D to win it all. I dont see the Colts moving Dungy at the end of the season
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bigred


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

inkwell wrote:
I disagree totally. His system works.

Correction: workED. It does not and has not worked here.

Quote:
Too many of his disciples are running it throughout the league. We dont have the horses to run it or any other defense.
We don't have the horses to run any other D because we haven't planned/built towards it. We have pointedly built towards this "small and fast" BS and it has not worked.

Quote:
Without sacrificing offensive talent, we cant bring in the kind of talent it takes.
I disagree, but if so, then it's time to sacrifice some offensive talent. And I do think our D could have been better, even given monetary limitations.

Quote:
I dislike Polian but I disagree with your assessment of his draft skills.
His record is spotty and speaks for itself. Go back and review it.....I don't see how you could possibly not see this.

Quote:
His son on the other hand has overseen the pro scouting during a period of incredibly inept handling of bringing in pro talent. I was shocked when he was recently promoted.
Can't speak to his son but it doesn't shock or even surprise me in the very least that he would be promoted regardles of talent. Remember, this is Mr Ultra-ego Polian we're talking about. That may shed some light on our pathetic FA record though.

Quote:
I have no problem whatsoever with this management's refusal to draft players like Crowder who dont meet their character requirements, no matter how well he might have filled a need at MLB.
Me either.


Quote:
I dont see the Colts moving Dungy at the end of the season
Well of course not. He will, unfortunately, be here for most if not all of Manning's career.

Shame. IMO
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inkwell


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, his system works. period. Too many of his disciples are running it successfully. He has run it successfully. We have hardly seen his system in Indy. He has usually played the cover two which is his systems core D only 40% of the time here in Indy. Last year before injuries hit, was the first time he reversed that percentage. He believes in getting pressure from his front four without blitzing. He has never been able to use his front four exclusively to pressure the pocket. The lack of personnel has prevented his system from even being fully utilized and implemented, never mind from being successful.

It doesnt matter what defense we build towards if we dont devote assets (cap room) towards it. We cant do that while the offense eats up so much of the cap. I am NOT for cutting cap hit on offense because what we have works and we cant be sure any moves we make on D will work. I agree with their tactic of keeping the O intact to maximize the investment in Peyton and keep trying to tweak and luck their way into enough defensive talent to win the Super Bowl. It would make no sense to pay Peyton so much and then not surround him with the tools to make him most effective. You will have to explain to me how you think we can bring in defensive talent without cutting some offensive talent. The NFL today is a zero sum game. I dont understand your disagreement with this.

His record absolutely speaks for itself. He has built winners wherever he has gone. Three stops and three winners. DIfferent cap rules. Different coaching staffs. Different owners. Different game plans. Same results. I dont CARE whether or not you can see this. It is a well documented fact. I dont have to review it.

As for our lousy free agent record, that was my whole point. Chris was in charge of pro scouting and our resultant moves were horrible. I dont know what ultra ego has to do with his son. I think you mistake the definition of ego, but I agree it is probably Bill's call.

I hope polian and dungy are both here as long as Peyton. If they are I believe fully it will result in a couple Super Bowl appearances.
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Canadian_Patriot


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But man...if you guys lose to New England again in the playoffs don't you think its time to do something...i mean, you've been basically doing the same thing against us the last 5 times we've played....and you've lost everytime. If its not Dungy's fault, who's is it. Manning? Polian? The owner? Who? Someone needs to step up and do something in your organization and vault you guys to the next level... I don't give a crap if Manning puts uo 6TD's against the Texans in Nov/Dec....or you score 50 on Cinncinati in week 11 this year...im not hating...but that doesn't mean [inappropriate/removed].. And this team has been doing this same thing for the last 3 years...with the same outcome.


My point when i started this topic was to see what you guys thought should be done to get your team over the last hump. And most have said nothing. Which is exactly what you did in the 2003 and 2004 off seasons.

If i was a fan off the team and we did not perform a lot better on defense this year and beat New England (or Pittsburgh ), whoever is in your way come playoff time. I'd want Polian gone along with Dungy...they've had years to get it done, and to this point i'd have to say they failed.
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bigred


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

inkwell wrote:
no, his system works. period. Too many of his disciples are running it successfully. He has run it successfully..
Correct. He HAS. But currently he is not. And honestly I don't care who else is or isn't running it. Is it not working for the Colts.

Quote:
We have hardly seen his system in Indy. He has usually played the cover two which is his systems core D only 40% of the time here in Indy.
So we should buy into a system he's building towards.....then not even USING the majority of the time? ????


Quote:
The lack of personnel has prevented his system from even being fully utilized and implemented, never mind from being successful.
If we're unable to get the personnel to implement his system, then we should scrap it for a system which is more do-able.


Quote:
It doesnt matter what defense we build towards if we dont devote assets (cap room) towards it. We cant do that while the offense eats up so much of the cap.
That much we agree on. Buy maybe it would be easier to build a BIGGER defense that would work better.


Quote:
I am NOT for cutting cap hit on offense because what we have works
Yeah that's why we exit the playoffs year after year. Sorry ink, not buying it. High-powered offenses with shaky/poor Ds simply do not win titles, and I'm not satisified with being a "good" team that doesn't win rings. Which btw is a Dungy trademark.


Quote:
and we cant be sure any moves we make on D will work.
I'm not asking for guarantees......


Quote:
I agree with their tactic of keeping the O intact to maximize the investment in Peyton and keep trying to tweak and luck their way into enough defensive talent to win the Super Bowl.
And you can see where that has gotten us. We need more than luck.


Quote:
It would make no sense to pay Peyton so much and then not surround him with the tools to make him most effective.
The point is he is - and would be - plenty effective with somewhat lesser talent, and we could then use that monetary slack to build the D. We need team BALANCE.


Quote:
You will have to explain to me how you think we can bring in defensive talent without cutting some offensive talent. The NFL today is a zero sum game. I dont understand your disagreement with this.
I already explained that I think we should have done with less O talent to spend more money on D.


Quote:
His record absolutely speaks for itself. He has built winners wherever he has gone. Three stops and three winners. DIfferent cap rules. Different coaching staffs. Different owners. Different game plans. Same results. I dont CARE whether or not you can see this. It is a well documented fact. I dont have to review it.
? When did I say otherwise?

Again: Dungy (and Polian, in fact) can make bad teams good but not good teams great, ie SB winners. That record speaks for itself too.


Quote:
As for our lousy free agent record, that was my whole point. Chris was in charge of pro scouting and our resultant moves were horrible. I dont know what ultra ego has to do with his son. I think you mistake the definition of ego
Strange, since you pointed it out in the first place ie he hired and promotes a guy who has shown limited ability at best because it's his son. That's not ego?


Quote:
I hope polian and dungy are both here as long as Peyton. If they are I believe fully it will result in a couple Super Bowl appearances.
I disagree completely.

PS I notice you didn't say SB "wins" just appearances. Freudian slip? Wink
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inkwell


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian_Patriot wrote:
But man...if you guys lose to New England again in the playoffs don't you think its time to do something...i mean, you've been basically doing the same thing against us the last 5 times we've played....and you've lost everytime. If its not Dungy's fault, who's is it. Manning? Polian? The owner? Who? Someone needs to step up and do something in your organization and vault you guys to the next level... I don't give a crap if Manning puts uo 6TD's against the Texans in Nov/Dec....or you score 50 on Cinncinati in week 11 this year...im not hating...but that doesn't mean -.. And this team has been doing this same thing for the last 3 years...with the same outcome.


My point when i started this topic was to see what you guys thought should be done to get your team over the last hump. And most have said nothing. Which is exactly what you did in the 2003 and 2004 off seasons.

If i was a fan off the team and we did not perform a lot better on defense this year and beat New England (or Pittsburgh ), whoever is in your way come playoff time. I'd want Polian gone along with Dungy...they've had years to get it done, and to this point i'd have to say they failed.


They havent failed. This is a team that was basically the Bungals or 'Aints for a decade or more. We had multiple number one picks in the draft. Once we had the top TWO picks in the draft. Elway refused to play for us. Schlister was a bust. Emtman got injured. Coryatt was never a star. Every savior flopped. We went through coaches, GMs, players, the draft, trading for stars (Dickerson). Nothing really worked consistently til Polian got here. I am not a big fan of Polian. I think he created the situation with Marshall Faulk. I think he did a lousy job of bringing players suitable for the system that Mora and Fangio ran on defense. But he has restored us to a consistent contender. He works well with Dungy. The team is young and he is doing a good job of cap management. We cant beat the Pats. OK, either can anyone else. I am not the kind of fan who thinks the Vikings and Bills suck because they lose so many super bowls. I know what our management has achieved and dont see it as failure. If we are going to make the kind of sweeping changes you seem to be calling for, in my opinion, it starts with trading Manning, and you will NEVER get fair value for him. For better or worse this team has a commitment to Manning and as long as that is the case, your best chance to win is ALWAYS to maximize your investment in him. Manning is NOT Vick. You cant depend on him to make plays on his own. He makes plays by maximizing the value of those around him. The more talent around him, the more the results increase exponentially. This means they shortchange the D and it is not an accident. It is a planned situation. What they COULD do but dont seem to do is to address contracts sooner and build cap space that way. They let Peyton count way too much against the cap for a year longer than they needed to. SImilarly with Edge this year. If they are going to sign him to a long term deal, now that the stadium issue seems to be locked up, why wait? They could cut his cap number by 1/2 to 2/3 if they signed him now to a long term deal. IMO they cant do this because they cant afford the bonus money. A Dan Snyder pays huge bonuses to stretch out cap hits. Snyder has the highest revenue stadium deal in the league. Irsay has the worst. Of course the league also bent over and took it up the you know where for Snyder when it broke its own rules concering debt/equity ratio to let Snyder buy the team and stadium with less cash than it usually demands. And no matter how good a stadium deal Irsay gets in Indy, there are only three Fortune 500 companies based in the state. There are none in Louisiana. I bet there arent more than a couple in WIsconsin. So corporate sponsorships, suites, naming rights etc are slim pickings for teams there. As these are the parts of the pie owners dont share with the rest of the league, these guys are at a MAJOR disadvantage. I honestly believe that Irsay cannot afford to write a $10M + check to Edge up front, especially after the bonuses he has paid over the last two years and with Freeney needing to be worked soon.

If Irsay could operate like a Snyder, he could probably cut his cap number by $6M to $8M this year. He could save at least $4M on Edge alone by signing him long term. I dont mean the check would bounce or his children would starve, but I think Irsay is not in the position of throwing another $10+M cash bonus at Edge. And ya know what? I dont think it is a coincidence that the "good" teammates like Peyton and Marvin and Stokely and Saturday get taken care of and the players who wont show up and dont live in Indy and dont say the right things are the ones who are unhappy and dont get the consideration. And I say good for Polian on that front.

So the upshot is that I am damn happy with the job these guys are doing with less. Am I frustrated we cant beat the Pats? of course!! Am I frustrated we cant progress from where we have been for 3 years? Of course!! But I am not blind either. I have been a fan of the Colts for a long time. I have remained so through years of being the worst in the league. So I hardly call being second to the Pats a failure. I can look at our team and see the offense being just as good or even better. I can look at our defense and see reason for optimism. I can look at the Pats and see reasons to hope they will come back to the pack without their spiritual leaders on D (Bruschi and Law) and their coaching staff decimated. Would I bet the mortgage against them? of course not! but I am ok with where we are, the course management has set and how they see the future. If I had my preference, I would do things like the Ravens. Go all out to win the Super Bowl and then rebuild. Take the cap hit, take the attrition and take my ring. But I know that is not the way the Colts are gonna operate. SO, with that knowledge, I am satisfied at what they are doing.

To answer your direct question? Whose fault is it? That is easy! Brady's fault. Pioli's fault. Belly Chick's fault. The Pats are better. Period. If we get lucky once and beat them, then win the Super Bowl, That will be great. Til it happens, we are just up against a better team. So is every other team in the league. I am satisfied management is trying to improve. I KNOW they have a plan to do so. Will it happen? Time will tell. But meanwhile, I like the stability. I like that we dont roll over and give in to Edge when he shows us he is not a team player. I am glad we dont go after T.O. and Moss and other divisive characters. This team has an identity it is easy to be a fan of. They have good guys, and are an exciting team to watch, have a lot of success and are still moving towards improvement while massaging the cap. I have hope that with a new stadium deal, Irsay will be able/willing to open the purse strings a little more and I have the belief it wouldnt take too much to put us over the top. I hope that answers your question.
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inkwell


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigred wrote:
inkwell wrote:
no, his system works. period. Too many of his disciples are running it successfully. He has run it successfully..
Correct. He HAS. But currently he is not. And honestly I don't care who else is or isn't running it. Is it not working for the Colts.

Quote:
We have hardly seen his system in Indy. He has usually played the cover two which is his systems core D only 40% of the time here in Indy.
So we should buy into a system he's building towards.....then not even USING the majority of the time? ????


Quote:
The lack of personnel has prevented his system from even being fully utilized and implemented, never mind from being successful.
If we're unable to get the personnel to implement his system, then we should scrap it for a system which is more do-able.


Quote:
It doesnt matter what defense we build towards if we dont devote assets (cap room) towards it. We cant do that while the offense eats up so much of the cap.
That much we agree on. Buy maybe it would be easier to build a BIGGER defense that would work better.


Quote:
I am NOT for cutting cap hit on offense because what we have works
Yeah that's why we exit the playoffs year after year. Sorry ink, not buying it. High-powered offenses with shaky/poor Ds simply do not win titles, and I'm not satisified with being a "good" team that doesn't win rings. Which btw is a Dungy trademark.


Quote:
and we cant be sure any moves we make on D will work.
I'm not asking for guarantees......


Quote:
I agree with their tactic of keeping the O intact to maximize the investment in Peyton and keep trying to tweak and luck their way into enough defensive talent to win the Super Bowl.
And you can see where that has gotten us. We need more than luck.


Quote:
It would make no sense to pay Peyton so much and then not surround him with the tools to make him most effective.
The point is he is - and would be - plenty effective with somewhat lesser talent, and we could then use that monetary slack to build the D. We need team BALANCE.


Quote:
You will have to explain to me how you think we can bring in defensive talent without cutting some offensive talent. The NFL today is a zero sum game. I dont understand your disagreement with this.
I already explained that I think we should have done with less O talent to spend more money on D.


Quote:
His record absolutely speaks for itself. He has built winners wherever he has gone. Three stops and three winners. DIfferent cap rules. Different coaching staffs. Different owners. Different game plans. Same results. I dont CARE whether or not you can see this. It is a well documented fact. I dont have to review it.
? When did I say otherwise?

Again: Dungy (and Polian, in fact) can make bad teams good but not good teams great, ie SB winners. That record speaks for itself too.


Quote:
As for our lousy free agent record, that was my whole point. Chris was in charge of pro scouting and our resultant moves were horrible. I dont know what ultra ego has to do with his son. I think you mistake the definition of ego
Strange, since you pointed it out in the first place ie he hired and promotes a guy who has shown limited ability at best because it's his son. That's not ego?


Quote:
I hope polian and dungy are both here as long as Peyton. If they are I believe fully it will result in a couple Super Bowl appearances.
I disagree completely.

PS I notice you didn't say SB "wins" just appearances. Freudian slip? Wink


are you stupid or being intentionally ontuse? Let me try to reduce this to easy to understand tid bits.

NO system . . .none nada zilch zip . . . works without talented players. This team does NOT have enough talented players on defense. Therefore to blame the system, when it DOES work and has been proven to work repeatedly is ignorant. As in to speak without understanding the facts.


If you ever watched the Colts, or halfway followed them, you would know that Dungy has not been able to play his system because the personnel has not matched his system. They have turned over the personnel and the players, although no better talentwise, now at least fit his system. That is why, before injuries decimated the secondary last year, they were creating turnovers and playing quite well. They had the right type of personnel and the personnel knew the system. Injuries decimated the secondary and rookies took over who did not know the system, so they had to blitz to protect the young corners and it all broke down. Barring the same number of injuries in one area, they should be able to again play Dungy's system and hopefully play as well as they did early last year when the turnover ratio was so positive for us. If you look behind the stats and watch the games, you can see progress made that doesnt always show up on stat sheets. Frankly I dont care whether you buy into his system or not. He isnt gonna change it for you and you apparently wouldnt know the different between his system and Buddy Ryan's judging by your comments. Who ties your shoes in the morning? Do you realize that if the offense takes a up a disproportionately large amount of the salary cap, this means the defense gets . . . ok, all together now . . . a disproportionately SMALL portion of the salary cap. And what does that mean biys and girls? It is harder with a SMALL part of the salary cap to get good players for the defense. . . This is nto exactly higher math. What you are basically telling me is that it doesnt matter that you dont understand the facts. It doesnt matter that you wont think about this deeper than the surface. You want what you want and like a small child, it doesnt matter what facts are or how life works. You want it and you want it now. But dont raise my ticket prices and the cost of beer at the stadium. Well grow up. Life doesnt work that way. You want Peyton? Well that means no stud defensive free agents. You want Irsay to pay big bonuses for marquee defensive players? No problem. Just steal it from the tax payers in Indiana. Or get companies to lay off more workers so they can afford to buy more sky suites. I am sure they will do that for you so you wont be unhappy. As things are we are unable to bring in top defensive talent for ANY system. This is what you just refuse to accept. If anything, it is normally easier to find smaller quicker DL because most teams dont want them. SO again, that comes down to the percentage of the cap devoted to defensive talent. Here we have to disagree. You have not offered any details but just generically say you want to cut some offensive cap room. SO do you want us to cut Edge? Peyton? Marvin? Who? We already turn over offensive linemen every year. We just cut a high priced TE. Are you comfortable with Rhodes at RB? Not me. Sorgi at QB? not me. Moorehead replacing Marvin? not me. You want to cut several lesser players to get the cap room to sign a Corey SImon next year? keep Marvin and cut Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark? Cut Jeff Saturday or Tarik Glenn? Why hurt the offense to take a risk on some new guy fitting in and having equal impact on the D? Why give up what you know works to take a chance on MAYBE finding someone who will improve the D enough to offset the offensive loss? Why take the chance that your offensive cap dollars will be wasted because you mess with the successful chemistry? Break up the best offense in the league, maybe the history of the league to take a chance on MAYBE fixing the D with one big name signing? Spoken like a true, know nothing fan.

I do see where the plan in place has gotten us. We are the second best team in the league. We cant beat the Pats. OK. accept it. Either can anyone else. If all you want is knee jerk reactions without any thought or planning, go root for the Redskins. Or the US Congress. When you get 95% of the way to your goal, you dont throw away what got you that far to make the last 5% IT is much more likely you would lose the progress you have made than that you would climb the last crest. Team balance? You think balance is a goal? That would be easy to achieve. Having the last ranked defense AND offense would be perfect balance. I guess you would be happy then.

Basically you are just whining. You dont offer any real plan. You just have knee jerk reactions. Defense is lacking? make a better defense. Cap wont let us sign more defense? Slash the offense. That will hurt the offense? Make peyton play harder, we already pay him so much. We cant beat the Pats? But I want to . . . whaaa whaaa whaa

And go study up on your Freud. Ego is about self. You are talking about nepotism.

I very specifically said Super Bowl appearances. I said what I meant. no slips. nothing freudian. The best team doesnt always win once they get there. The Colts in 69 were better than the Jets. They didnt prove it on the field but they were. The Colts in 64 were better than the Brown IMO. They didnt prove it on the field but they were. The year the Cowboys won one game all year, were they better than the skins that year? A lot of crazy things can happen in one game. It doesnt erase the rest of the season. The Bills were a great team while losing 4 super bowls. Ditto the Vikes losing all their final games. You might not see that but that doesnt change it. Marino was a great QB. With or without a ring.
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Halfback007


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Dungy has done a pretty decent job with the D. I see them being contenders again this year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:20 pm    Post subject: me Reply with quote

Same here same here.
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Halfback007


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just look at the Cheifs and ask this same question.
I think these teams are similar in almost every away.
They have a Good QB,Good RB, Good OL, and Below good Defense, but now they both should have a pretty above average Defense.
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cowboyzvin6


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if this is Dungy's last season, he might get screwed like he did in Tampa Bay and leave just before they win a super bowl with his team.
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