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UnclePaulie
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Posts: 308
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| BigEasy504 wrote: | | Shockey1979 wrote: | | SG3 wrote: | I remember last year when all the Giants fans said Eli was better than Ben.
That was a funny argument. |
Career numbers wise they are pretty darn close. You act like Ben has never had a 3 games stretch where he has stuggled. Eli is in a funk right now... doesn't change how good he has been over the last 13 months or so. |
Career numbers don't always show you who's better. And let's be real, Eli hasn't had to play behind an o-line like Ben's, and he's always had a great rushing attack to back him up.
And if you want to talk about numbers, Ben already has three seasons with a passer rating above 95, and he's already working on a 4th. Eli has yet to surpass 90. Ben's averaged 8.0 yards per attempt compared to Eli's 6.5. Heck, Ben has even fumbled less and ran in more touchdowns. The completion percentages aren't even close, Ben has Eli beat by 7. |
Eli's first 3 seasons and Ben's first 3 seasons it wasn't even close. The level of talent that Ben played with absolutely trumped Eli.
Regardless the Steelers have shifted from their run-first philosophy in the past. No doubt it has helped Ben's numbers. Right now the run-first is still working for the Giants so they'll likely stick to it until they are convinced otherwise. |
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pierrepet
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | | SG3 wrote: | I remember last year when all the Giants fans said Eli was better than Ben.
That was a funny argument. |
Career numbers wise they are pretty darn close. You act like Ben has never had a 3 games stretch where he has stuggled. Eli is in a funk right now... doesn't change how good he has been over the last 13 months or so. |
That is the thing. Eli has been GOOD (not great but good) for the last 13 months, but that does not erase the first four mediocre/poor years that he has had. It is not surprising to me that he is once again struggling seeing as how he has struggled far more in this league than he has succeeded.
Also, is there any correlation between the Giant's red zone struggles and the absence of Plaxico Burress (I know Gmen, Pax was not important to your team and you the Giants wont miss him this season)? Burress often allowed Eli to simply lob the ball up and Plax would come down with a TD. Now Eli has to be more exact with his throws and the results are understanable for an average QB.
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Gmen: "Eli is finally going to get those shiny stats that you QB evaluators look for (in 2009)."
Gmen: "The Giants and Eagles are the cream of the crop in the entire NFC. Something would have to go drastically wrong in order for Dallas to win." |
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Parkourblog
Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 222
Location: Whistler, BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Pistol_Monkey wrote: | Why? Because he had a bad game today?  |
Words
Eaten [x]
Still on Plate [ ]
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Gmen
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 9566
Location: It's.... It's..... ....Beautiful
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| pierrepet wrote: | | Shockey1979 wrote: | | SG3 wrote: | I remember last year when all the Giants fans said Eli was better than Ben.
That was a funny argument. |
Career numbers wise they are pretty darn close. You act like Ben has never had a 3 games stretch where he has stuggled. Eli is in a funk right now... doesn't change how good he has been over the last 13 months or so. |
That is the thing. Eli has been GOOD (not great but good) for the last 13 months, but that does not erase the first four mediocre/poor years that he has had. It is not surprising to me that he is once again struggling seeing as how he has struggled far more in this league than he has succeeded.
Also, is there any correlation between the Giant's red zone struggles and the absence of Plaxico Burress (I know Gmen, Pax was not important to your team and you the Giants wont miss him this season)? Burress often allowed Eli to simply lob the ball up and Plax would come down with a TD. Now Eli has to be more exact with his throws and the results are understanable for an average QB. |
Looked great (not good, but great) the first five weeks of the season. Looked great moving the ball down the field against the Cowboys as the Giants christened your new stadium. We didn't miss Plax one bit then. But of course you weren't around to discuss what was going on then. You only show up when Eli gets into a bit of a slump. He'll pull out of it, and you'll crawl back into the hole from which you came.
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pierrepet
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 4590
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Gmen wrote: | | pierrepet wrote: | | Shockey1979 wrote: | | SG3 wrote: | I remember last year when all the Giants fans said Eli was better than Ben.
That was a funny argument. |
Career numbers wise they are pretty darn close. You act like Ben has never had a 3 games stretch where he has stuggled. Eli is in a funk right now... doesn't change how good he has been over the last 13 months or so. |
That is the thing. Eli has been GOOD (not great but good) for the last 13 months, but that does not erase the first four mediocre/poor years that he has had. It is not surprising to me that he is once again struggling seeing as how he has struggled far more in this league than he has succeeded.
Also, is there any correlation between the Giant's red zone struggles and the absence of Plaxico Burress (I know Gmen, Pax was not important to your team and you the Giants wont miss him this season)? Burress often allowed Eli to simply lob the ball up and Plax would come down with a TD. Now Eli has to be more exact with his throws and the results are understanable for an average QB. |
Looked great (not good, but great) the first five weeks of the season. Looked great moving the ball down the field against the Cowboys as the Giants christened your new stadium. We didn't miss Plax one bit then. But of course you weren't around to discuss what was going on then. You only show up when Eli gets into a bit of a slump. He'll pull out of it, and you'll crawl back into the hole from which you came. |
Actually, you proved my point. In that Dallas game, the Giant's offense struggled mightily in the red zone and I believe scored a TD only once in 4 tries.
As for me dissapearing, I am not going anywhere. I will be here next week after another Giant's loss and another terrible Eli performance....this time against San Diego. Speaking of SD, take a look at Rivers, the player NY should have kept in the first place.
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Gmen: "Eli is finally going to get those shiny stats that you QB evaluators look for (in 2009)."
Gmen: "The Giants and Eagles are the cream of the crop in the entire NFC. Something would have to go drastically wrong in order for Dallas to win." |
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SG3
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 7799
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | | SG3 wrote: | I remember last year when all the Giants fans said Eli was better than Ben.
That was a funny argument. |
Career numbers wise they are pretty darn close. You act like Ben has never had a 3 games stretch where he has stuggled. Eli is in a funk right now... doesn't change how good he has been over the last 13 months or so. |
Big easy pretty much covered it for me. 
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52decleetzu
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I love all of this "Eli is not great, but he is above average."
In what world does a QB who is behind 16 guys out of 32 considered "above average"?
Here are the QB's who are better right now ( and will always be).....
1 Aaron Rodgers, QB GNB
2 Peyton Manning, QB IND
3 Drew Brees, QB NOR
4 Brett Favre, QB MIN
5 Donovan McNabb, QB PHI
6 Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT
7 Matt Schaub, QB HOU
8 Tom Brady, QB NWE
9 Tony Romo, QB DAL
10 Philip Rivers, QB SDG
11 Joe Flacco, QB BAL
12 Carson Palmer, QB
13 Matt Hasselbeck, QB
14 Matt Ryan, QB ATL
15 Kurt Warner, QB ARI
16 Jay Cutler, QB
I would love for anyone to give me ONE name on that list you would take Eli over.
Just ONE.
Matter of fact it aint even CLOSE with any those names.
Heck even Jason Campbell has a career rating better than Eli., as doa few other who are not on the list.
Eli an average QB, and always has been. Just accept it for what it is.
He is middle of the pack. Mediocre. Average at best. Nothing special.
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Shockey1979
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 8270
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| 52decleetzu wrote: |
1 Aaron Rodgers, QB GNB
2 Peyton Manning, QB IND
3 Drew Brees, QB NOR
4 Brett Favre, QB MIN
5 Donovan McNabb, QB PHI
6 Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT
7 Matt Schaub, QB HOU
8 Tom Brady, QB NWE
9 Tony Romo, QB DAL
10 Philip Rivers, QB SDG
11 Joe Flacco, QB BAL
12 Carson Palmer, QB
13 Matt Hasselbeck, QB
14 Matt Ryan, QB ATL
15 Kurt Warner, QB ARI
16 Jay Cutler, QB
I would love for anyone to give me ONE name on that list you would take Eli over.
Just ONE.
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The bolded are the QB's I'd take over Eli to be the starting QB of the New York Giants. The rest may be more accurate or stronger armed but they couldn't run our offense at the same level Eli does. And that I stand by.
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asgardian
Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 3137
Location: R.I.P. Mark
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| 52decleetzu wrote: | I love all of this "Eli is not great, but he is above average."
In what world does a QB who is behind 16 guys out of 32 considered "above average"?
Here are the QB's who are better right now ( and will always be).....
1 Aaron Rodgers, QB GNB
2 Peyton Manning, QB IND
3 Drew Brees, QB NOR
4 Brett Favre, QB MIN
5 Donovan McNabb, QB PHI
6 Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT
7 Matt Schaub, QB HOU
8 Tom Brady, QB NWE
9 Tony Romo, QB DAL
10 Philip Rivers, QB SDG
11 Joe Flacco, QB BAL
12 Carson Palmer, QB
13 Matt Hasselbeck, QB
14 Matt Ryan, QB ATL
15 Kurt Warner, QB ARI
16 Jay Cutler, QB
I would love for anyone to give me ONE name on that list you would take Eli over.
Just ONE.
Matter of fact it aint even CLOSE with any those names.
Heck even Jason Campbell has a career rating better than Eli., as doa few other who are not on the list.
Eli an average QB, and always has been. Just accept it for what it is.
He is middle of the pack. Mediocre. Average at best. Nothing special. |
Im no Giants fan but I would take Eli over Flacco and Hasselbeck atleast. Possibly Romo but i dont like Romo so i am biased.
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DannyB
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 6639
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| UnclePaulie wrote: | | BigEasy504 wrote: | | Shockey1979 wrote: | | SG3 wrote: | I remember last year when all the Giants fans said Eli was better than Ben.
That was a funny argument. |
Career numbers wise they are pretty darn close. You act like Ben has never had a 3 games stretch where he has stuggled. Eli is in a funk right now... doesn't change how good he has been over the last 13 months or so. |
Career numbers don't always show you who's better. And let's be real, Eli hasn't had to play behind an o-line like Ben's, and he's always had a great rushing attack to back him up.
And if you want to talk about numbers, Ben already has three seasons with a passer rating above 95, and he's already working on a 4th. Eli has yet to surpass 90. Ben's averaged 8.0 yards per attempt compared to Eli's 6.5. Heck, Ben has even fumbled less and ran in more touchdowns. The completion percentages aren't even close, Ben has Eli beat by 7. |
Eli's first 3 seasons and Ben's first 3 seasons it wasn't even close. The level of talent that Ben played with absolutely trumped Eli.
Regardless the Steelers have shifted from their run-first philosophy in the past. No doubt it has helped Ben's numbers. Right now the run-first is still working for the Giants so they'll likely stick to it until they are convinced otherwise. |
So first someone said Eli and Ben's career numbers are similar. As someone pointed out, they are not. 8.0ypa vs. 6.5ypa are not similar. 90.9 QBrtg vs. 77.1 QBrtg are not similar. So now you say that the level of talent that Ben has played with was infinitely better than what Eli has played with? Come on. Eli had a big, dominating receiver for years, has an offensive line that is vastly superior to Ben's, and has a better running attack to help the offense out too. The Steelers switching up their offensive philosophy shouldn't necessarily help Ben's numbers: Things like ypa and QB rating are built to compare QBs across systems. Look, I'm a decent Eli supporter. I think he gets a lot of undue hate tossed his way. But the bottom line remains, Ben Roethlisberger is a better quarterback than Eli Manning. And just about any remotely valid test or measure points the same direction.
| Shockey1979 wrote: | | 52decleetzu wrote: |
1 Aaron Rodgers, QB GNB
2 Peyton Manning, QB IND
3 Drew Brees, QB NOR
4 Brett Favre, QB MIN
5 Donovan McNabb, QB PHI
6 Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT
7 Matt Schaub, QB HOU
8 Tom Brady, QB NWE
9 Tony Romo, QB DAL
10 Philip Rivers, QB SDG
11 Joe Flacco, QB BAL
12 Carson Palmer, QB
13 Matt Hasselbeck, QB
14 Matt Ryan, QB ATL
15 Kurt Warner, QB ARI
16 Jay Cutler, QB
I would love for anyone to give me ONE name on that list you would take Eli over.
Just ONE.
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The bolded are the QB's I'd take over Eli to be the starting QB of the New York Giants. The rest may be more accurate or stronger armed but they couldn't run our offense at the same level Eli does. And that I stand by. |
Oh come on. What makes Eli so unique and gifted that he runs your oh-so-high-tech and special offense better than those other guys (not all of them, but plenty that you didn't bold)? Honestly, explain this to me. With the same amount of time to get acquainted with the system as Eli has had, I'm guessing guys like Palmer, Favre, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. would be doing just as good, if not better than Eli.
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Joe_is_the_best
Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 163
Location: West Somalia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| blueNorange wrote: | | Joe_is_the_best wrote: | | You can make your own conclusions... |
like his injured heel??
i mean because we all know eli isn't good when he faces good teams. |
Well he beat teams with his injured heel. Crappy teams. And you are exactly right.
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| Russell2Bailey wrote: |
Mike Nolan is the chuck norris of DCs in the nfl. jet li didnt beat him. idc what anyone says. |
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Shockey1979
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 8270
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| DannyB wrote: |
Oh come on. What makes Eli so unique and gifted that he runs your oh-so-high-tech and special offense better than those other guys (not all of them, but plenty that you didn't bold)? |
Some could possibly run it just as good as Eli but the three I bolded are the ones I feel could run it significantly better. His ability to read and react to defenses in my opinion is top 4 in the NFL. There are QB's on that list who are certainly more accurate and are effective in their systems. But our offensive system relies on the QB to make on the fly defensive reads and adjustments. Eli has a high level of responsibility on the field and is asked to more pre snap then 95% of the other QB's. Eli's contributions to our running games success always goes unnoticed. I understand as an opposing fan you don't feel the same way. But as a fan who only partly considers stats I see the true value in a QB like Eli Manning. The value that many of his critics fail to give him credit for. Sexy stat QB's don't exist in the Meadowlands. Look back over the last 30 seasons. Our offensive gameplan has always been power run. It's the only way to win in the wind and weather.
It's funny though how over the first 5 weeks of the season not one Eli Manning thread existed. Now he has struggled for a few games and how quickly all the critics come out of the woodwork. Like I said earlier in this thread... a spade is a spade. Eli has played rather poorly recently. But over the last 2 seasons he has played exceptionally including a nearly flawless 2007 postseason. I fully expect Eli to correct and elevate his play. No QB is immune to a 3 game slump.
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DannyB
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 6639
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | | our offensive system relies on the QB to make on the fly defensive reads and adjustments. |
Which systems don't?
| Shockey1979 wrote: | | Eli has a high level of responsibility on the field and is asked to more pre snap then 95% of the other QB's. |
Any reliable source or voice of knowledge to back up this statement?
| Shockey1979 wrote: | | I understand as an opposing fan you don't feel the same way. But as a fan who only partly considers stats I see the true value in a QB like Eli Manning. The value that many of his critics fail to give him credit for. Sexy stat QB's don't exist in the Meadowlands. Look back over the last 30 seasons. Our offensive gameplan has always been power run. It's the only way to win in the wind and weather. |
Do you really think all of that accounts for his mediocre YPA?
Again, I'm not trying to pile it on Eli, and it's not like I don't like the guy. I went through a sort of Eli renaissance earlier this spring where my opinion of him changed pretty dramatically for the better because I saw multiple people who have forgotten more about the game of football than I'll ever know talking about how good of a QB he is. I just think it's a little lofty to say that Eli is running that offense better than any other QB in the league could given equal amounts of time to learn the system, except for the three you mentioned.
And this has nothing to do with this recent streak of poor play. Of course every QB has bad streaks, and I don't think this has even been that bad when you consider the "quarterbacking" going on in other places of the league. I also think that perhaps that injury is affecting him more than is let on, which would be unfortunate.
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52decleetzu
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Shockey1979 wrote: | | 52decleetzu wrote: |
1 Aaron Rodgers, QB GNB
2 Peyton Manning, QB IND
3 Drew Brees, QB NOR
4 Brett Favre, QB MIN
5 Donovan McNabb, QB PHI
6 Ben Roethlisberger, QB PIT
7 Matt Schaub, QB HOU
8 Tom Brady, QB NWE
9 Tony Romo, QB DAL
10 Philip Rivers, QB SDG
11 Joe Flacco, QB BAL
12 Carson Palmer, QB
13 Matt Hasselbeck, QB
14 Matt Ryan, QB ATL
15 Kurt Warner, QB ARI
16 Jay Cutler, QB
I would love for anyone to give me ONE name on that list you would take Eli over.
Just ONE.
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The bolded are the QB's I'd take over Eli to be the starting QB of the New York Giants. The rest may be more accurate or stronger armed but they couldn't run our offense at the same level Eli does. And that I stand by. |
I rest my case.
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bungleodeon
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 1845
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:36 am Post subject: |
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This is just typical:
someone said Eli is a mediocre QB
Giants fans run in and blame EVERY SINGLE THING OTHER THAN Eli.
"It's the play calling, It's the WR's, The Defenses are just to well prepared, it's a rough patch, he's more injured than they let on, he lost Plax, NY media, etc etc"
Like the OP said, this isn't just 1 stretch of football, Eli has been a mediocre QB his entire career. He has played on some great teams and has done enough to help those teams have success, but he has never raised his offense to another level like good and great QB's do.
Being a mediocre QB isn't that big of an insult, there are at least 10 teams that would take Eli in heartbeat.
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