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Matt Cassel ACCEPTS franchise tender
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ErnieEdwards


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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Location: Upstate NY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
ErnieEdwards wrote:
Boltstrikes wrote:
Cassel in Detroit would suck. They need more out of their QB then a game manager, in IMO they need a Favre/Palmer/hell even Vick. The city needs some sizzle and a playmaker other then Calvin Johnson.

Cassel in Minnesota would do great. Of course I could probably do well with that RB and defense.

He isn't the type of QB that will carry the offense. He will however play smart and help a team win. He won't be a Brady, Peyton or McNabb but he is a more athletic version of Chad "the Noodle" Pennington.

Like any QB in the right system and supporting cast he can be successful. Stick the golden boy Tom Brady on the 2006 Raiders and he will look just as bad as Walter and Tui did.

With the contract that Cassel get I would value him as a late 1st round selection.

Then again Feeley got a 2nd...

So then, conversely, if you stick Walter and Tui on the 2007 Patriots they will look just a good as Brady ?? One hypothetical situation couldn't possibly exist unless the other ere true as well.....since you are saying Brady is essentially at the same skill level as Walter and Tui.

When are people going to accept the fact that quarterbacks are individuals. They aren't interchangable cyborgs with the same skills and abilities in which the system and players around them dictate the amount of production they have....

Putting Tom Brady in a comparative sentence with Andrew Walter and Marques Tuiasasopo an injustice of epic proportions......seriously.


You're either conveniently twisting his statement to fit your argument or just utterly missing the point he was trying to make.

His contention with regard to the 2007 Raiders wasn't a slight at Tom but rather the situation that the Raiders put their quarterbacks in (i.e. a sieve of an offensive line, WR's that were giving Braylon Edwards a model for his 2008 play, and all while constantly in a position where they were having to play from behind with limited time because their defense couldn't stop the run to save their lives).

Tom Brady is a phenomenal QB, but - great as he may be - he can't do it all himself. Unless Tom is going to throw the ball, run down the field and catch his own pass, all while blocking 3-5 pass-rushers, and suit up on defense to stop the other team from scoring... ad nauseum... the QB is only one man and is dependent to some degree or another on the talent put in place around him. The 2007 Raiders simply did not field that talent around their QB's, thus even the greatest of greats would have likely been putting up paltry numbers/results and seeing more of the ground than the end-zone.

No....I understood the "point" and my intention was to show how it has no substance. Hypothetical situations don't prove "points"....they're fantasies, the likes of which will never be realized. They're useless and prove NOTHING.

If he wants to fantasize about Brady struggling in Oakland......then clearly he must fantasize about Walter and Tui being as successful in New England. It's impossible to know the truth unless these "fantasies" are realized....so all I'm suggesting is...stick to reality. It's more substantial and concrete when you're attempting to make a "point".
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ErnieEdwards wrote:

No....I understood the "point" and my intention was to show how it has no substance. Hypothetical situations don't prove "points"....they're fantasies, the likes of which will never be realized. They're useless and prove NOTHING.

If he wants to fantasize about Brady struggling in Oakland......then clearly he must fantasize about Walter and Tui being as successful in New England. It's impossible to know the truth unless these "fantasies" are realized....so all I'm suggesting is...stick to reality. It's more substantial and concrete when you're attempting to make a "point".


I'd really love to hear how that brilliant deductive reasoning came to be. First off, he is a Chargers fan (or was the Boltstrikes name and the Chargers-themed signature not obvious enough to get that point across?).

Secondly, he made one observation, that clearly Tom Brady would not have produced up to his expected par, regardless of talent/ability or anything short of act of God, were he the QB of the 2007 Raiders due to an utter lack of talent around him. I really fail to see how this is "fantasizing" that Tom Brady would struggle in Oakland. Any quarterback would have struggled to achieve pro bowl caliber play on that squad (Montana in his prime, Ken Stabler, Troy Aikman, the list goes on and on!), it's not just limited to Brady.

Furthermore, how would "fantasizing," as you contend, or rather suggesting that Tom Brady, or any QB for that matter, would struggle on the Raiders, by any shred of logic, suggest that he (again... a Charger fan) would be fantasizing about Andrew Walter and Marcus Tuiasosopo being successful Quarterbacks in New England?
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ErnieEdwards


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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Location: Upstate NY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
ErnieEdwards wrote:

No....I understood the "point" and my intention was to show how it has no substance. Hypothetical situations don't prove "points"....they're fantasies, the likes of which will never be realized. They're useless and prove NOTHING.

If he wants to fantasize about Brady struggling in Oakland......then clearly he must fantasize about Walter and Tui being as successful in New England. It's impossible to know the truth unless these "fantasies" are realized....so all I'm suggesting is...stick to reality. It's more substantial and concrete when you're attempting to make a "point".


I'd really love to hear how that brilliant deductive reasoning came to be. First off, he is a Chargers fan (or was the Boltstrikes name and the Chargers-themed signature not obvious enough to get that point across?).

Secondly, he made one observation, that clearly Tom Brady would not have produced up to his expected par, regardless of talent/ability or anything short of act of God, were he the QB of the 2007 Raiders due to an utter lack of talent around him. I really fail to see how this is "fantasizing" that Tom Brady would struggle in Oakland. Any quarterback would have struggled to achieve pro bowl caliber play on that squad (Montana in his prime, Ken Stabler, Troy Aikman, the list goes on and on!), it's not just limited to Brady.
Furthermore, how would "fantasizing," as you contend, or rather suggesting that Tom Brady, or any QB for that matter, would struggle on the Raiders, by any shred of logic, suggest that he (again... a Charger fan) would be fantasizing about Andrew Walter and Marcus Tuiasosopo being successful Quarterbacks in New England?

As I've already stated...."How do you know this would be true ??"

The answer is....you don't. There is no way, not even the most remote possibility, that we could ever KNOW this "fantasy" to be true.

fantasy (fnt-s, -z)
n. pl. fantasies
1. The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See Synonyms at imagination.
2. Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.
3. A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
4. a. Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.
b. An example of such fiction.
5. An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.
6. An unrealistic or improbable supposition.

Suggesting that Tom Brady would struggle as badly as Andrew Walter and Marques Tuiasasopo IS sayng that their skillset and abilities are similar, because if they weren't....then clearly Brady would be able to perform better.

It's so simple to understand.....that's its comicald what does being a Charger fan have anything to do with the "fantasy" ?
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VrabelCrable


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
ErnieEdwards wrote:

No....I understood the "point" and my intention was to show how it has no substance. Hypothetical situations don't prove "points"....they're fantasies, the likes of which will never be realized. They're useless and prove NOTHING.

If he wants to fantasize about Brady struggling in Oakland......then clearly he must fantasize about Walter and Tui being as successful in New England. It's impossible to know the truth unless these "fantasies" are realized....so all I'm suggesting is...stick to reality. It's more substantial and concrete when you're attempting to make a "point".


I'd really love to hear how that brilliant deductive reasoning came to be. First off, he is a Chargers fan (or was the Boltstrikes name and the Chargers-themed signature not obvious enough to get that point across?).

Secondly, he made one observation, that clearly Tom Brady would not have produced up to his expected par, regardless of talent/ability or anything short of act of God, were he the QB of the 2007 Raiders due to an utter lack of talent around him. I really fail to see how this is "fantasizing" that Tom Brady would struggle in Oakland. Any quarterback would have struggled to achieve pro bowl caliber play on that squad (Montana in his prime, Ken Stabler, Troy Aikman, the list goes on and on!), it's not just limited to Brady.

Furthermore, how would "fantasizing," as you contend, or rather suggesting that Tom Brady, or any QB for that matter, would struggle on the Raiders, by any shred of logic, suggest that he (again... a Charger fan) would be fantasizing about Andrew Walter and Marcus Tuiasosopo being successful Quarterbacks in New England?


Ah Q the Mr. Rogers make believe music. Love it.

LBC if you look at what Boltstrikes wrote, he didn't say anything about Tom Brady not producing expected to par for that Oakland team, he said that Tom would look just as bad as those QBs that Oakland had that year. Which is absurd. As bad as that team was they do better with Tom Brady...no matter how you spell it.
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finn54


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can add another to the Matt Cassel fan club:

Mel Kiper

Quote:
Kiper was asked to put himself in the position of the Lions (picks 1, 20, and 33) and Chiefs (picks 3 and 34), assuming they were considering taking quarterbacks Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez in the draft.

Given that, would he take Stafford or Sanchez, or would he rather have Matt Cassel in a trade?

"If I were Detroit or Kansas City, I would make that move in a heartbeat. If youre asking me if I would rather have Matt Cassel or Matthew Stafford or Mark Sanchez, Id rather have Matt Cassel," Kiper answered.

Kiper doubted that Cassel would be available, however, saying he's an insurance policy for Tom Brady.

He looked like he should have been the No. 1 overall pick in the draft. Its amazing. To watch him play this year, if he would have been the No. 1 pick in the draft, people would have been very happy with the way hes playing right now, Kiper said.

He came out the same year the other three quarterbacks did [Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell] and right now hes better than those other three and Im including [Jay] Cutler in that. I would rather have Cassel than Cutler. So, to me, I think Cassel is more than worthy of being a guy that the Kansas City Chiefs or Detroit Lions go after. Hes played to the level of a No. 1 pick overall this year.


Lets add Kiper to the ever growing list, which now stands at: Ron Jaworski, Steve Mariucci, Michael Lombardi, and Floyd Reese.
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atown703


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still remain a doubter that Cassel will be as effective as he was in the Pats system
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

finn54 wrote:
We can add another to the Matt Cassel fan club:

Mel Kiper

Quote:
Kiper was asked to put himself in the position of the Lions (picks 1, 20, and 33) and Chiefs (picks 3 and 34), assuming they were considering taking quarterbacks Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez in the draft.

Given that, would he take Stafford or Sanchez, or would he rather have Matt Cassel in a trade?

"If I were Detroit or Kansas City, I would make that move in a heartbeat. If youre asking me if I would rather have Matt Cassel or Matthew Stafford or Mark Sanchez, Id rather have Matt Cassel," Kiper answered.

Kiper doubted that Cassel would be available, however, saying he's an insurance policy for Tom Brady.

He looked like he should have been the No. 1 overall pick in the draft. Its amazing. To watch him play this year, if he would have been the No. 1 pick in the draft, people would have been very happy with the way hes playing right now, Kiper said.

He came out the same year the other three quarterbacks did [Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell] and right now hes better than those other three and Im including [Jay] Cutler in that. I would rather have Cassel than Cutler. So, to me, I think Cassel is more than worthy of being a guy that the Kansas City Chiefs or Detroit Lions go after. Hes played to the level of a No. 1 pick overall this year.


Lets add Kiper to the ever growing list, which now stands at: Ron Jaworski, Steve Mariucci, Michael Lombardi, and Floyd Reese.


Same guy that loved Mike Williams at WR. There is a reason he has never been anything more than a glorified scout.
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NFCNORTHBEAR


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
finn54 wrote:
We can add another to the Matt Cassel fan club:

Mel Kiper

Quote:
Kiper was asked to put himself in the position of the Lions (picks 1, 20, and 33) and Chiefs (picks 3 and 34), assuming they were considering taking quarterbacks Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez in the draft.

Given that, would he take Stafford or Sanchez, or would he rather have Matt Cassel in a trade?

"If I were Detroit or Kansas City, I would make that move in a heartbeat. If youre asking me if I would rather have Matt Cassel or Matthew Stafford or Mark Sanchez, Id rather have Matt Cassel," Kiper answered.

Kiper doubted that Cassel would be available, however, saying he's an insurance policy for Tom Brady.

He looked like he should have been the No. 1 overall pick in the draft. Its amazing. To watch him play this year, if he would have been the No. 1 pick in the draft, people would have been very happy with the way hes playing right now, Kiper said.

He came out the same year the other three quarterbacks did [Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell] and right now hes better than those other three and Im including [Jay] Cutler in that. I would rather have Cassel than Cutler. So, to me, I think Cassel is more than worthy of being a guy that the Kansas City Chiefs or Detroit Lions go after. Hes played to the level of a No. 1 pick overall this year.


Lets add Kiper to the ever growing list, which now stands at: Ron Jaworski, Steve Mariucci, Michael Lombardi, and Floyd Reese.


Same guy that loved Mike Williams at WR. There is a reason he has never been anything more than a glorified scout.


Yeah & the same guy who talk up Dez White & said he was a guaranteed first round pick in his final mock! Also the same guy who said Grossman had the strongest arm of any QB in that class, even over Leftwich.
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bigmikenash


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol.....kiper is trash....the dude is almost never right...as far as cassel he had a decent season but the fact of the matter is no team will trade for him.he is in a good system when you take him out cassel will clearly fall on his face,its not hatin ,its the truth.if jon kitna went down and matt "the francise"cassel came in ,do you think we'd be havin the same disscussion right now?
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VrabelCrable


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigmikenash wrote:
lol.....kiper is trash....the dude is almost never right...as far as cassel he had a decent season but the fact of the matter is no team will trade for him.he is in a good system when you take him out cassel will clearly fall on his face,its not hatin ,its the truth.if jon kitna went down and matt "the francise"cassel came in ,do you think we'd be havin the same disscussion right now?


Why is it the truth? Have you watched the guy play or are you one of these people that looks at the stat sheets and says "well he has Randy Moss and Wes Welker so he must be overrated." And Newsflash. Every QB is a product of a good system. If you don't have a good system then your QB will not be affective.
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finn54


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why more people aren't high on Cassel. He's got the character and work ethic you want in a QB/leader. He's got the prototypical size and is a great athlete (he started a game for USC at TE). His decision making came on leaps and bounds in the second half of the season. First 8 games he was keeping to one or two reads, and if they weren't open it was a case of tuck and run which resulted in a fair few sacks. By the end of the season you could see his confidence, see him going through his progressions and buying himself some time with his feet. I think the whole arm strength issue is overrated. He keeps a tight spiral with great velocity. He's started one year since HS so you know he's fresh and should be able to play for a long time yet. Just seems like an all-round player that can start right away. I know i'm slightly biased in this, but when i see comments like 'he's worth a 5th rd pick' or 'if the lions sign him i give up on them', it makes me wonder what i'm missing.

Is it simply because he played with good players? Or is it "the system"? His stats for the last 8 games: 171/283 (60.5%), 2127 yards, 7.5 YPA, 14 pass TDs, 4 INTs, (169 rush yards, 2 rush TDs), 3 fumbles lost, 19 sacks QB rating: 94.3. I hate to do this, but look at this 'what if': What if Cassel had played the entire year as he did the last 8 games? He would have had 4592 all purpose yards which was good enough for 3rd in the NFL (ahead of Kurt Warner). He would have had 28 passing TDs which would have put him tied 4th with Rodgers (all-purpose TDs would have put him tied 3rd with Rodgers). His 7.5 YPA would have put him 9th in the league. His QB rating of 94.3 would have had him 6th. I know that that doesn't prove anything at all, but it does show how well he played compared to the first half of the season when everyone passed judgment on him. Second half of the year he played like a top 8 QB. If A.J. Feeley can get the 35th overall pick then Cassel can get top 50.
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bigmikenash


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VrabelCrable wrote:
bigmikenash wrote:
lol.....kiper is trash....the dude is almost never right...as far as cassel he had a decent season but the fact of the matter is no team will trade for him.he is in a good system when you take him out cassel will clearly fall on his face,its not hatin ,its the truth.if jon kitna went down and matt "the francise"cassel came in ,do you think we'd be havin the same disscussion right now?


Why is it the truth? Have you watched the guy play or are you one of these people that looks at the stat sheets and says "well he has Randy Moss and Wes Welker so he must be overrated." And Newsflash. Every QB is a product of a good system. If you don't have a good system then your QB will not be affective.
lol why is it pats fan is soooo defensive?dude relax everyone is entitled to an opinion and i stated mine.cassel would not be effective on most other teams.he is the next derrick anderson and that just the way i see it.
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patman


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigmikenash wrote:
VrabelCrable wrote:
bigmikenash wrote:
lol.....kiper is trash....the dude is almost never right...as far as cassel he had a decent season but the fact of the matter is no team will trade for him.he is in a good system when you take him out cassel will clearly fall on his face,its not hatin ,its the truth.if jon kitna went down and matt "the francise"cassel came in ,do you think we'd be havin the same disscussion right now?


Why is it the truth? Have you watched the guy play or are you one of these people that looks at the stat sheets and says "well he has Randy Moss and Wes Welker so he must be overrated." And Newsflash. Every QB is a product of a good system. If you don't have a good system then your QB will not be affective.
lol why is it pats fan is soooo defensive?dude relax everyone is entitled to an opinion and i stated mine.cassel would not be effective on most other teams.he is the next derrick anderson and that just the way i see it.


of course he wont be as effective, While he did not play, he did study the playbook for three years. But Your comparrison to Anderson is off the mark and i cant see how you can see it that way. Anderson played lights out until teams got a book on him. Cassesl showed steady improvement
throughout his year.
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was

1. No QB will succeed in a crap system, with crap players, crap coaches and an insane owner. Insert Tom Brady hypothetical here. Now this isn't necessarily hypothetical since Kerry Collins also looked like crap in the same situation and then went to Tenessee and became a pro-bowler. Your fantasy that Brady would have somehow willed that team into a good team is far fetched. The playcalls were 7 and 9 step drops...the offensive line allowed defenders through untouched everywhere, there was no WR that was even running his routes full speed. Maybe Tom wouldn't have taken the amount of sacks, but then he would have thrown more picks. There was no shred of success for that team. The coaching was horrid and the players quit.

2. Cassell succeeded in a great system, with great players, great coaches and a great owner. Factual basis here.

3. There is no evidence Cassell will succeed if you change anything in that equation. Factual basis here.

What do you have against Walter or Tui? I never stated a talentless hack could have success solely because of a system. Now obviously they have talent, prior to the Raiders they both had college success. While it could never be proven they would be successful in New England with Randy Moss catching balls, we can look at the New England QB's that have had success. 3/3 under Bill have had success. Bledsoe, Brady and Cassell... Maybe a Dallas, or Buffalo fan can tell me if Bledsoe was as good as his inflated stats in New England led fans to believe. Now you say but Bledsoe didn't do that well, bull, his only season the team had no supporting offensive talent and yet he still posted over 3k yards in his first year in a new system.

As I initially stated I would value Cassell as a late 1st. He has the ability to succeed at the NFL level with the proper supporting cast and coaching. However, as no team in the end of the 1st needs a QB he will slip to a second rd value. Add in his salary cap hit for the first year and you can see the value deteriorate. Of course this "experts" rate him as a 1st rounder. They are merely doing their job of talking about something in the off-season pre-combine and pre-free agency.
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ctpatsfan77


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boltstrikes wrote:
2. Cassell succeeded in a great system, with great players, great coaches and a great owner. Factual basis here.


True, but he also improved in that system with just a few games under his belt.

Quote:
3. There is no evidence Cassell will succeed if you change anything in that equation. Factual basis here.


To play Devil's advocate, though, there's no evidence he can't succeed, either.

Quote:
we can look at the New England QB's that have had success. 3/3 under Bill have had success. Bledsoe, Brady and Cassell... Maybe a Dallas, or Buffalo fan can tell me if Bledsoe was as good as his inflated stats in New England led fans to believe. Now you say but Bledsoe didn't do that well, bull, his only season the team had no supporting offensive talent and yet he still posted over 3k yards in his first year in a new system.


Bledsoe was not successful under Belichick--remember with Bledsoe/Belichick, the Patriots were 5-13 (cf. Cassel's 11-5).
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