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Perception vs. Reality
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SquadraOvest


Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 372
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:56 pm    Post subject: Perception vs. Reality Reply with quote

1) If Aaron Rogers was not a "Tedford system quarterback", would he be rated higher? In other words, are many folks backing off of him simply because of perception? What does Aaron Rogers not bring to the table besides something in common (a coach) with some past quarterbacks who relatively underachieved?

2) What if David Terrel did not exist? Would Braylon Edwards be rated higher? How would one compare Braylon Edwards to T.O. when coming out of school? Further, if David Terrel were a superstar, would B.Edwards be rated even higher?

3) If LBs were taken #1 in 3 of the last 5 years, would Derrick Johnson have a better shot to go #1?

4) If Ronnie Brown were the feature back at Auburn, it's safe to say that his numbers would be waaaay better then they were while taking a backseat in the Caddy. If Cadillac were just a 2nd stringer, does Brown move even higher up the draft charts?

5) And finally, isn't it true that some of the best WRs of all time didn't possess much speed? I'm thinking Jerry Rice here. Steve Larget, et al. Considering his route running, his desire to win, his production, and especially his hands, what makes Mike Williams slide out of the top 10? I just don't see it.

The point to all of these questions is that we often base our evaluations of a player on the success of those that came before them rather then on the player himself. Sometimes, it's warranted, but sometimes it just goes a little too far.
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 435
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question 6: Do people back off Alex Smith because they seem to have the notion that the Pac-10 is superior to the Mountain West? Even though several QBs have come out of the draft recently from "mid-major" schools and had success?

Question 7: If Tim Rattay were selected in the 1st or 2nd round, would there even be a debate about the position? His numbers through 12 career are better than Peyton Manning's, but he was a 7th round pick. Interesting hypotheticals sir.
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mauRICE 80


Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrackLaden wrote:
Question 6: Do people back off Alex Smith because they seem to have the notion that the Pac-10 is superior to the Mountain West? Even though several QBs have come out of the draft recently from "mid-major" schools and had success?

Question 7: If Tim Rattay were selected in the 1st or 2nd round, would there even be a debate about the position? His numbers through 12 career are better than Peyton Manning's, but he was a 7th round pick. Interesting hypotheticals sir.


Answer #6 Nobodys backing off Smith. But its obvious that Rodgers is the better QB

Answer #7 Untill Rat can stay healthy for a couple games in a row he not going to get anybody respect.
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mauRICE 80 wrote:

Answer #6 Nobodys backing off Smith. But its obvious that Rodgers is the better QB


Right...good eye man! How'd you come to that championship conclusion?

Quote:
Answer #7 Untill Rat can stay healthy for a couple games in a row he not going to get anybody respect.


Yeah, a lot like when McNabb broke his leg, or Vick broke his, or Priest Holmes had the hip problems...cause injuries sure aren't a part of the NFL. And you should just assume that a player can't stay healthy because he's only started 12 out of a possible 19 starts in his career. You should totally just give up on him and assume he can never stay healthy. You definitely shouldn't see if he can rehab and operate your offense.
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mauRICE 80


Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="CrackLaden"]
mauRICE 80 wrote:

quote]Yeah, a lot like when McNabb broke his leg, or Vick broke his, or Priest Holmes had the hip problems...cause injuries sure aren't a part of the NFL. And you should just assume that a player can't stay healthy because he's only started 12 out of a possible 19 starts in his career. You definitely shouldn't see if he can rehab and operate your offense.


You cant compare broken bones to the little nagging injuries that Rat always has. The most Rat has broke all year was a finger nail. He only started 9 out of a possible 16 that he was suppose too. And when he did play he fumble like crazy and threw 10 INT and only 10 TDS. Pipe down Crack Pipe
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olinono


Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man... stop the manning comparisons!

Manning started right when he was a rookie. Rattay started after his 4th season. Obviously, his better stats came about because he had more time to study the NFL game. So please, that is not a valid argument.

Also, Manning took his team to the playoffs in his rookie year in his first 16 starts. Better than stats, he did what was needed to win. Rattay clearly lost his job when he made poor decision after poor decision in close games. No line or not, he should not have made those ints in games like the Jets. And on top of that the man has problems staying healthy. Tearing your groin on the first day of camp as the clear cut #1 guy for the niners was a bad sign to start. Then he goes and injures his forearm because he isn't used to passing so much. Come on!

It's time to move on. I can't give this guy another chance to disappoint again next year. And with the #1 choice, it is much better to build around a big time QB rather than waiting to see if Rattay can actually do it. Let's cut our losses right now than having another 2-14 season!

And about Alex Smith, I don't think they back off of him because he is in a weaker conference, it's more because of his lack of strength and his bulk. His weight is only 212 compared to Rodgers who is 220. Rodgers is even two inches shorter. That is what has people worried. Can he take the hits? Not sure if he can. Those Mountain West guys I'm sure can't hit like those USC dudes can. Another thing that worries me is his one year of success. Unlike Rodgers, Smith had only one good year in college. He might develop into something great but he is not as ready as Rodgers is.

And yes, please put down the crack pipe...
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason I make the Manning comparisons are not because I think Rattay is that good. It's because he clearly deserves more time with those numbers. Especially considering he studied the WCO for those seasons on the bench, but when he got the chance to start, it was in Dennis Erickson and Ted Tollner's offense, which was different altogether. But now we're back to the WCO. He's gonna do well. BTW, Manning didn't take the Colts to the playoffs...he went 3-13 in his first season. And he had Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk and a good offensive line protecting him.

We're not drafting Q at the top boys...it's becoming clearer and clearer. You can't label a guy as injury prone because of one season. You can't label him a failure because the team went 2-14, even though he had absolutely nothing to work with and a horrid offensive line. He still put up decent production last season considering his supporting cast. But, most of the folks on this board are of the opinion that a QB is all we need...good thinking on that one. Rolling Eyes
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olinono


Joined: 09 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Rattay made multiple poor decisions in key drives last year. That right there killed it for me. I was a big Rattay supporter last year but throwing ints in the 4th quarter is inexcusable. He is a good QB but not the one that will take us all the way. Maybe these guys that are in the draft won't either but I would rather try with them than give Rattay another year to blow close games. And what gives you the feeling that we won't go QB with the first pick? From everything that I have read so far, we are going to go that way especially since we picked up Jonas J two days ago. I can't see another position that we would need to draft someone that high...
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rattay threw 7 INTs in the 4th quarter. He also threw 7 TDs in the 4th quarter. Perhaps he made mistakes because he had to throw too often because the team was trailing all the time. Look at Jake Plummer; obviously, he's not an elite QB, but he's a pretty nice QB for Denver, and his INT numbers dropped, because he actually got to play with a lead for a change. I'm curious to know the specific examples of horrendous 4th quarter decisions that he made. I can think of:

vs. Jets--not much to say...you're absolutely correct, the INT to Vilma was a terrible f*cking pass

vs. Panthers--played a pretty poor game, but got sacked more times than Paris Hilton

vs. Seahawks--missed the guy dropping into the zone...Chad Pennington and Ben Roethlisberger made the exact same throw with the exact same result in the playoffs. People miss the guy dropping in coverage in the zone all the time...that's why they still play zone.

vs. Falcons--similar situation as Seahawks...missed Beasley dropping to Wilson's side. Happens to every QB ever.

However, on the flip side:

He also had us in contention in games we had no business being in contention in. Lest we forget, he separated his shoulder in the 1st game vs. Atlanta, and still came back to lead the team within a 2 pt. conversion of the tie. Pretty determined performance. We had leads against Seattle and the Jets, but the miserably banged up defense was not able to hold them, and the offense got too much put on its shoulders. Throw in the comeback against the Cardinals, and it seems to me that for every mistake in the 4th quarter, he also made a play. Considering the offensive line, lack of running game, and young, unproven receivers (including Eric Johnson), he had to work with, 61% completions, 2169 yards, 10 TDs, 10 INTs are exceptional numbers. And this wasn't even operating the offense he studied on the bench. Analogy: I got my undergraduate degree in Music Performance, French Horn. If I had gotten my first job playing in an orchestra, but they told me I was playing violin, how do you think I would have done? On a comparative scale, not as well as Rattay did.
I'm lost as to how Rattay blew close games. When and where? He was one of the only reasons the games were close to begin with. We should have been 0-16 last year, and were fortunate to win 2. I firmly believe the 2004 49ers were the worst team in the history of the NFL. Included in that would be the fact that we had the worst injury situation in the NFL (even more than Carolina and Tennessee), and lost almost every star player in the cap purge. If we're going to hold players responsible for last season, then we would have to cut every player on our roster, because the entire team, coaching staff, ownership, etc. etc. etc. all completely failed. Circumstances dictated that it would be a probability. You don't walk away from a guy who has posted decent numbers surrounded by VERY little talent, when you're returning to the offense that he knows like his own penis.

RE: the #1 pick...I don't wanna sound like a total [inappropriate/removed] here (although I am a total [inappropriate/removed], so I guess that's alright... Very Happy
I have one of those "inside" source type of folks who was at the combine, and he said he was under the impression that if we kept the pick, we would take Ronnie Brown. I personally think it might br Brown, but I actually think we'll end up with Marcus Spears one way or the other. Just my opinion.
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mauRICE 80


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nolan has already said were drafting a QB early. You are the only person to think the niners can win with Rat. Bottom line is that Rat will never be a Qb that the fans in S.F are use too.
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mauRICE 80 wrote:
Nolan has already said were drafting a QB early. You are the only person to think the niners can win with Rat. Bottom line is that Rat will never be a Qb that the fans in S.F are use too.


I'm not the only person, but thanks for noticing. The fans in SF need to pull their heads out of their a$$e$ and start understanding the game a little bit, because if appeasing the fan base with free agency and the draft is what we're trying to do, we can just be the Redskins and never accomplish a damn thing. If we're trying to build a team that can contend for a a number of years through fiscal responsiblity and sound management, then we are off to a good start by improving our offensive line for years to come. We'll see how it goes from here.
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mauRICE 80


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrackLaden wrote:
mauRICE 80 wrote:
Nolan has already said were drafting a QB early. You are the only person to think the niners can win with Rat. Bottom line is that Rat will never be a Qb that the fans in S.F are use too.


I'm not the only person, but thanks for noticing. The fans in SF need to pull their heads out of their a$$e$ and start understanding the game a little bit, because if appeasing the fan base with free agency and the draft is what we're trying to do, we can just be the Redskins and never accomplish a damn thing. If we're trying to build a team that can contend for a a number of years through fiscal responsiblity and sound management, then we are off to a good start by improving our offensive line for years to come. We'll see how it goes from here.


For some reason you think you no it all. Pull your head out your a$$
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mauRICE 80 wrote:


For some reason you think you no it all. Pull your head out your a$$


I don't think I know it all. I'm expressing my opinion. And I'm doing it without resorting to name calling.
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mauRICE 80


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrackLaden wrote:
mauRICE 80 wrote:


For some reason you think you no it all. Pull your head out your a$$


I don't think I know it all. I'm expressing my opinion. And I'm doing it without resorting to name calling.


If I was saying dumb $hit like you I would want u to call me some names
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CrackLaden


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mauRICE 80 wrote:

If I was saying dumb $hit like you I would want u to call me some names


There it is again.
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