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Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread
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TCP


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 5281
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

This man will make a great coach. Everything I have read. He narrowly lost two jobs last year and they were to Mike Smith and Tony Sparano. Rex Ryan and Spagnoulo would be a bad hire. Very few High Profile Coordinators ever turn into a good HC. In fact most of them fail. Look at the Patriots: 2 of Belichecks coaches were fired as HCs after very short tenures. Norv Turner is brutal as a coach, for the talent he has the past two Ravens DCs sucked, why is Ryan any better? We already have hired a guy who has been great with amazing talent around him, he was fired and is hated by everyone.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3204102

Quote:
Frazier also interviewed with the Dolphins for their head coach opening, was said to have made a solid impression, and drew a strong recommendation from Miami vice president of football operations Bill Parcells.


Quote:
In 2007, the Minnesota defense statistically ranked 20th in the league, but was No. 1 versus the run


Quote:
Frazier is known as a low-key coach but a strong communicator.


The Big Tuna who turns around a lot of clubs, loves him. We are improving our run defense and we have nabbed guys early to play DL. I am a firm believer you hire a coach that plays to your strengths and not try and improve your weakness. You hire a Coordinator to do that.

Harbaugh, Smith, Sparano, Belichick, Tomlin, Singletary(a guy who looks good so far) Fisher are all guys that are very similar to Frazier's methods. This guy has great hire written all over him.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

TCP wrote:
for the talent he has the past two Ravens DCs sucked, why is Ryan any better? We already have hired a guy who has been great with amazing talent around him, he was fired and is hated by everyone..


I already adressed the first part in another tread so Im not going to waste my time again, Yours is just a bad argument.

As far as the Bolded section goes, What do you think Frazier has to work with up there in Minnesota? Scrubs?

Pat Williams
Kevin Williams
Jared Allen
Chad Greenway
Nepolean Harris
EJ Henderson
Cedric Griffin
Marcus McCauley
Antione Winfeild
Darren Sharper
Madieu Williams

Wow, thats 11 very good players right there. No to mention Ben Leber, Dontarius Thoman, Michael Boulware, and Ray edwards arent Scrubs either. He has a Ton of talent, and they drastically under achived this year (even though they made the Playoffs, Cuz AP carried them there). If you want to Bash Linehan and Rex Ryan for being surrounded by a ton of talent, and credit their success to those players instead of those coched, then the same goes to Frazier. Its not like he took the Rams, Lions or Bengals Defenses and made them great. In 2006, before Frazier got there, the Vikings already had a great Defense. Their Rushing D gave up less than 1000 yards, single diget TDs, and less than 3 yards per rush. The problem was always the pass D, which he still hasnt Fixed.

Im not saying he is a bad candidate, or doesnt deserve a shot, But you cant keep making these blind statements about other coches and Frazier and not taking the time to look up what the reality is. Just because Parcells said he likes the guy and is impressed doesnt mean he loves him, there is a reason he didnt get the job. Just be fair and stop falsely hyping up frazier and putting down everyone else
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STLRebound


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
TCP wrote:
for the talent he has the past two Ravens DCs sucked, why is Ryan any better? We already have hired a guy who has been great with amazing talent around him, he was fired and is hated by everyone..


I already adressed the first part in another tread so Im not going to waste my time again, Yours is just a bad argument.

As far as the Bolded section goes, What do you think Frazier has to work with up there in Minnesota? Scrubs?

Pat Williams
Kevin Williams
Jared Allen
Chad Greenway
Nepolean Harris
EJ Henderson
Cedric Griffin
Marcus McCauley
Antione Winfeild
Darren Sharper
Madieu Williams

Wow, thats 11 very good players right there. No to mention Ben Leber, Dontarius Thoman, Michael Boulware, and Ray edwards arent Scrubs either. He has a Ton of talent, and they drastically under achived this year (even though they made the Playoffs, Cuz AP carried them there). If you want to Bash Linehan and Rex Ryan for being surrounded by a ton of talent, and credit their success to those players instead of those coched, then the same goes to Frazier. Its not like he took the Rams, Lions or Bengals Defenses and made them great. In 2006, before Frazier got there, the Vikings already had a great Defense. Their Rushing D gave up less than 1000 yards, single diget TDs, and less than 3 yards per rush. The problem was always the pass D, which he still hasnt Fixed.

Im not saying he is a bad candidate, or doesnt deserve a shot, But you cant keep making these blind statements about other coches and Frazier and not taking the time to look up what the reality is. Just because Parcells said he likes the guy and is impressed doesnt mean he loves him, there is a reason he didnt get the job. Just be fair and stop falsely hyping up frazier and putting down everyone else
I applaud you Smile
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TCP


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=283672

Minnesota fans thinking he will make a great HC.
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TCP


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
TCP wrote:
for the talent he has the past two Ravens DCs sucked, why is Ryan any better? We already have hired a guy who has been great with amazing talent around him, he was fired and is hated by everyone..


I already adressed the first part in another tread so Im not going to waste my time again, Yours is just a bad argument.

As far as the Bolded section goes, What do you think Frazier has to work with up there in Minnesota? Scrubs?

Pat Williams
Kevin Williams
Jared Allen
Chad Greenway
Nepolean Harris
EJ Henderson
Cedric Griffin
Marcus McCauley
Antione Winfeild
Darren Sharper
Madieu Williams

Wow, thats 11 very good players right there. No to mention Ben Leber, Dontarius Thoman, Michael Boulware, and Ray edwards arent Scrubs either. He has a Ton of talent, and they drastically under achived this year (even though they made the Playoffs, Cuz AP carried them there). If you want to Bash Linehan and Rex Ryan for being surrounded by a ton of talent, and credit their success to those players instead of those coched, then the same goes to Frazier. Its not like he took the Rams, Lions or Bengals Defenses and made them great. In 2006, before Frazier got there, the Vikings already had a great Defense. Their Rushing D gave up less than 1000 yards, single diget TDs, and less than 3 yards per rush. The problem was always the pass D, which he still hasnt Fixed.

Im not saying he is a bad candidate, or doesnt deserve a shot, But you cant keep making these blind statements about other coches and Frazier and not taking the time to look up what the reality is. Just because Parcells said he likes the guy and is impressed doesnt mean he loves him, there is a reason he didnt get the job. Just be fair and stop falsely hyping up frazier and putting down everyone else


Minus Jared Allen, he had very similar results to Mike Tomlin. The two guys are very similar guys in terms of methods and results.

Or we could take the guy who put up similar results to two HCing failures, in Nolan and Lewis.

They both produced with talent, except one guy has better credentials, a better past going for him, a similar method to good past hires and the approval of a man who does miracles for franchises.

The Ravens have more defensive talent spread out than the Vikings. I guess we should hire whiz Josh McDaniels I mean the past two Patriots OCs have made fine HCs, Oh wait one was fired today and Weis is under scrutiny at ND.

It's not always about the numbers as a DC. As I have pointed out there is a huge number of highly regarded Cs flopping as HCs, while the lesser known ones seem to make good HCs most of the time.

There is very extreme theories, "OH MY GAWD IF WE BRING IN RYAN THEN WE MUST GET LANDRY AND SUGGS AND REED AND LEWIS AND NGATA!!!!!!!!!!" It's crap like that, which I somewhat exaggerated.

We'll just be looking for another HC in 2 years time with Ryan. With Frazier I guarantee you he will stick around for a while, doing a damn good job,
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Blacky Gold


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

TCP wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
TCP wrote:
for the talent he has the past two Ravens DCs sucked, why is Ryan any better? We already have hired a guy who has been great with amazing talent around him, he was fired and is hated by everyone..


I already adressed the first part in another tread so Im not going to waste my time again, Yours is just a bad argument.

As far as the Bolded section goes, What do you think Frazier has to work with up there in Minnesota? Scrubs?

Pat Williams
Kevin Williams
Jared Allen
Chad Greenway
Nepolean Harris
EJ Henderson
Cedric Griffin
Marcus McCauley
Antione Winfeild
Darren Sharper
Madieu Williams

Wow, thats 11 very good players right there. No to mention Ben Leber, Dontarius Thoman, Michael Boulware, and Ray edwards arent Scrubs either. He has a Ton of talent, and they drastically under achived this year (even though they made the Playoffs, Cuz AP carried them there). If you want to Bash Linehan and Rex Ryan for being surrounded by a ton of talent, and credit their success to those players instead of those coched, then the same goes to Frazier. Its not like he took the Rams, Lions or Bengals Defenses and made them great. In 2006, before Frazier got there, the Vikings already had a great Defense. Their Rushing D gave up less than 1000 yards, single diget TDs, and less than 3 yards per rush. The problem was always the pass D, which he still hasnt Fixed.

Im not saying he is a bad candidate, or doesnt deserve a shot, But you cant keep making these blind statements about other coches and Frazier and not taking the time to look up what the reality is. Just because Parcells said he likes the guy and is impressed doesnt mean he loves him, there is a reason he didnt get the job. Just be fair and stop falsely hyping up frazier and putting down everyone else


Minus Jared Allen, he had very similar results to Mike Tomlin. The two guys are very similar guys in terms of methods and results.

Or we could take the guy who put up similar results to two HCing failures, in Nolan and Lewis.

They both produced with talent, except one guy has better credentials, a better past going for him, a similar method to good past hires and the approval of a man who does miracles for franchises.

The Ravens have more defensive talent spread out than the Vikings. I guess we should hire whiz Josh McDaniels I mean the past two Patriots OCs have made fine HCs, Oh wait one was fired today and Weis is under scrutiny at ND.

It's not always about the numbers as a DC. As I have pointed out there is a huge number of highly regarded Cs flopping as HCs, while the lesser known ones seem to make good HCs most of the time.

There is very extreme theories, "OH MY GAWD IF WE BRING IN RYAN THEN WE MUST GET LANDRY AND SUGGS AND REED AND LEWIS AND NGATA!!!!!!!!!!" It's crap like that, which I somewhat exaggerated.

We'll just be looking for another HC in 2 years time with Ryan. With Frazier I guarantee you he will stick around for a while, doing a damn good job,


Ha ha ha ha yes. Applause
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

TCP wrote:
Minus Jared Allen, he had very similar results to Mike Tomlin. The two guys are very similar guys in terms of methods and results.

Or we could take the guy who put up similar results to two HCing failures, in Nolan and Lewis.

They both produced with talent, except one guy has better credentials, a better past going for him, a similar method to good past hires and the approval of a man who does miracles for franchises.

The Ravens have more defensive talent spread out than the Vikings. I guess we should hire whiz Josh McDaniels I mean the past two Patriots OCs have made fine HCs, Oh wait one was fired today and Weis is under scrutiny at ND.

It's not always about the numbers as a DC. As I have pointed out there is a huge number of highly regarded Cs flopping as HCs, while the lesser known ones seem to make good HCs most of the time.

There is very extreme theories, "OH MY GAWD IF WE BRING IN RYAN THEN WE MUST GET LANDRY AND SUGGS AND REED AND LEWIS AND NGATA!!!!!!!!!!" It's crap like that, which I somewhat exaggerated.

We'll just be looking for another HC in 2 years time with Ryan. With Frazier I guarantee you he will stick around for a while, doing a damn good job,

You mean how Tomlin went to a top defense in the NFL to the BEST defense in the NFL? yea dont expect that out of Frazier. TheMinnesota Defense regressed under Frazier while adding more talent (M Williams and Jared Allen) That should tell you somthing.

I want to here this better Past/cridentials that he seems to have that no one has ever heard, you are just making that up. And when you are the DC, it is all about #s unless there are Injuries, Like Rex Ryan had his first year. And I dont belive I ever said that He would bring anyone from BAL except Dwan Edwards to play DE/DT depending on the scheme.

There is no way you be in the right mind if you think that you know that Ryan will automatically fail, because others have? Again you cant compare Frazier to Tomlin, because they arent the same type of a Co-ordinater. Frazier is more of a Dungy guy than anyhting else, so again lets compare him to Rod Merinelli (0-16).

Now if you want to Know what Rex Ryan did when he took over the Baltimore Defense look it up like I did.

In 2005 when he took over, the opponents Completion % went up 1 percent because they passed more on the defense, yet they gave up 200 less yards over the whole season. Passing TDs when up acouple, and INTs whent down(from 21-11). they gave up 100 less rushing yards, less TDs and the yards/attempt was virtually the same.
Oh and by the way that was with Ed Reed and Ray Lewis played a collective 16 games (10 and 6 respectively)

In 2006 he got both of them back, and had a healthy squad, The Ravens went 13-3. Completion percentage when down 2%, Virtually the same passing yards againt (still down from 2004) and only gave up 16 TDs through the air and had 28 INT. they only gave up 1214 rushing yards, and only 5 TDs. While giving up 3.3ypg.

So while Frazier did nothing but regress while taking over a very good Defense, dispite adding an elite passrusher, and very good saftey. Ryan improved to the leagues best defense.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rex Ryan has GREAT players in Baltimore that he didn't develop, guys like Ray-Ray, McAllister, Reed.....................same with Frazier any team that has Pat and Kevin Williams is gonna be great against the run, and on top of that minnesota has consistently been in the bottom of the league against the pass

The guy we need is Spagnuolo, this guy can develop players into great players he doesn't just run a good scheme( Tuck, Umenyora, Kiwanuka)................he can also take average players and make them alot better through his schemes and teachings (Webster, Kawika Mitchell, Fred Robbins)

Imagine what Spags can do with guys like Carriker, Ryan, Adayanju, Long, Little, Bartell, Atogwe, Witherspoon, Pisa and whoever else we get

I personally would rather we keep Haslett then sign Ryan, I just don't have a good feeling about him
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looking at your avatar TCP i would not want to play for the guy, he looks like freddy crugar. Seriously I brought that subject too that frazier has done nothing stout with that defense. Listen to this Rex and Rob wow, that is the report from adam shefter. I mean come on you cant get better than that. My respect from schefter. get minnesota assistants away form the rams please (scott). There is a rumor i read on rotoworld saying linehan would run the 49rs offense.
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TCP


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Leslie Frazier for '09 thread Reply with quote

Quote:
You mean how Tomlin went to a top defense in the NFL to the BEST defense in the NFL? yea dont expect that out of Frazier. TheMinnesota Defense regressed under Frazier while adding more talent (M Williams and Jared Allen) That should tell you somthing.


They dipped the first year but they improved this year They were the 6th best defense last year(Tomlin's was 8th) so I fail to see how the regressed whilst there ranking improved. The run defense was number 1 just like Tomlin's both years. But the point I'm trying to make is that very few great Cs translate into HC success. But if you want to argue about results as a DC, Frazier took the Bengals defense from 28th overall to 19th best and they declined in years following. Regarding the secondary there they forced 12 more turnovers under him- 3rd best in the league. He was a DB, and is a DB specialist. With the Colts the passing defense went from 15th to 2nd best in the league, with young DBs.

Quote:
I want to here this better Past/cridentials that he seems to have that no one has ever heard, you are just making that up. And when you are the DC, it is all about #s unless there are Injuries, Like Rex Ryan had his first year. And I dont belive I ever said that He would bring anyone from BAL except Dwan Edwards to play DE/DT depending on the scheme.


He's from the Dungy tree. Guys from his coaching tree: Mike Tomlin, Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli. Marinelli got in way before he should have as he should have taken the root the rest did with accepting a DC role first. Dungy is from the Chuck Noll coaching tree. Well then why isn't Wade Phillips working out in Dallas? Norv Turner in SD? Mike Martz here? Jim Haslett in general? All were great DCs, none are regarded as great HCs. Those are a few examples of poor HCs. That's why I don't like the big name coordinators. IMO they get so good at there job that they don't turn into very good HCs. With Frazier he has taken numerous roles in numerous places so he knows what to do, but doesn't think like one position. To go along with that Frazier is a winner. He has won 2 superbowls, one as a player one as a coach. But he has been on winning teams in Philadelphia during there turnaround, Cincy, Indy and now Minnesota.

Quote:
There is no way you be in the right mind if you think that you know that Ryan will automatically fail, because others have? Again you cant compare Frazier to Tomlin, because they arent the same type of a Co-ordinater. Frazier is more of a Dungy guy than anyhting else, so again lets compare him to Rod Merinelli (0-16).


Marinelli as stated was way to unripe so to say. He wasn't ready yet, but given a couple of years he could have been. Way to early. His reputation was ruined, but he wasn't a bad coach, he just wasn't ready. Frazier is very much like Tomlin. Recruited by the same guy, taken the same or similar positions and they have played tag with jobs.

Quote:
Now if you want to Know what Rex Ryan did when he took over the Baltimore Defense look it up like I did.

In 2005 when he took over, the opponents Completion % went up 1 percent because they passed more on the defense, yet they gave up 200 less yards over the whole season. Passing TDs when up acouple, and INTs whent down(from 21-11). they gave up 100 less rushing yards, less TDs and the yards/attempt was virtually the same.
Oh and by the way that was with Ed Reed and Ray Lewis played a collective 16 games (10 and 6 respectively)

In 2006 he got both of them back, and had a healthy squad, The Ravens went 13-3. Completion percentage when down 2%, Virtually the same passing yards againt (still down from 2004) and only gave up 16 TDs through the air and had 28 INT. they only gave up 1214 rushing yards, and only 5 TDs. While giving up 3.3ypg.

So while Frazier did nothing but regress while taking over a very good Defense, dispite adding an elite passrusher, and very good saftey. Ryan improved to the leagues best defense.


I have shown you examples of Frazier being on a staff, and they haven't regressed. Go ahead and look at Wade Phillips, Jim Haslett(in Pits), Scott Linehan, Cam Cameron, Eric Mangini, Romeo Crennell, Charlie Weis(ND), Norv Turner, Marvin Lewis, and Mike Nolan's work as a coordinator. All of them had great success at that level. Good for them. None of them are great HCs by any stretch.

So we can look at the job these guys have done as a coordinator, or we can look at these guys' skills and ideas that translate well to a good HC. It's like taking a guy that puts up great college numbers early on in an NBA draft. Scouts look for guys that have talents that can succeed at the next level. It's for that reason Hansbourough, Dee Brown and others were never highly regarded. Success at a lower level doesn't translate to a higher level all the time.

We have the next Mike Nolan and Marvin Lewis with Rex Ryan. No different whatsoever.
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TCP


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El ramster wrote:
Just looking at your avatar TCP i would not want to play for the guy, he looks like freddy crugar. Seriously I brought that subject too that frazier has done nothing stout with that defense. Listen to this Rex and Rob wow, that is the report from adam shefter. I mean come on you cant get better than that. My respect from schefter. get minnesota assistants away form the rams please (scott). There is a rumor i read on rotoworld saying linehan would run the 49rs offense.


Ok then let's hire Zach Efron. What the hell does that have to do with anyone.

WOW! Read my point about high profiled Cs. Find 10 high profiled Cs that made good HCs recently(say since 2000). Good luck.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TCP wrote:
El ramster wrote:
Just looking at your avatar TCP i would not want to play for the guy, he looks like freddy crugar. Seriously I brought that subject too that frazier has done nothing stout with that defense. Listen to this Rex and Rob wow, that is the report from adam shefter. I mean come on you cant get better than that. My respect from schefter. get minnesota assistants away form the rams please (scott). There is a rumor i read on rotoworld saying linehan would run the 49rs offense.


Ok then let's hire Zach Efron. What the hell does that have to do with anyone.

WOW! Read my point about high profiled Cs. Find 10 high profiled Cs that made good HCs recently(say since 2000). Good luck.


whose that? lol.

wade like it or not playoffs are success.

mike marts super bowl not bad.

lovie smith.

andy reed.

Your are right..
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TCP


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Reid wasn't a high profile guy. Philly fans at first hated the firing but he hasn't turned out to be bad, he has stuck around and made Philly a success for the first time, but he leaves stuff to be desired. Frazier coached under this guy.

Martz just had a great team altogether. I liked him at first but it just went south.

Lovie Smith: Granted

Wade Phillips has been far from good considering the team he has. He didn't win a home playoff game against the arch rival Giants. Not good. And then he has an abysmal performance against Philly. Dallas fans hate him.

Edit: Zach Efron is a model or something like that. Girls go ga-ga bat [inappropriate/removed] over him.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TCP wrote:
Andy Reid wasn't a high profile guy. Philly fans at first hated the firing but he hasn't turned out to be bad, he has stuck around and made Philly a success for the first time, but he leaves stuff to be desired. Frazier coached under this guy.

Martz just had a great team altogether. I liked him at first but it just went south.

Lovie Smith: Granted

Wade Phillips has been far from good considering the team he has. He didn't win a home playoff game against the arch rival Giants. Not good. And then he has an abysmal performance against Philly. Dallas fans hate him.

Edit: Zach Efron is a model or something like that. Girls go ga-ga bat - over him.



LOL man cool.
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TCP


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was in reference to you calling Frazier ugly, so I asked if you'd prefer a model
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