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Is the Redskins DL that much better?
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How much has the Redskins DL improved?
A lot
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
It's worse because of the loss of Baker and RJF
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
The DL will be about the same as the last 2 years
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
It's better but still not a lot better
68%
 68%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 19

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Doc Draper


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thaiphoon wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't play a traditional 3-4. Just stop people. I can't understand why no one gets it. Our 3-4 NT plays the same exact look as a 4-3 NT which is the position that Stacy McGee played in Oakland. Terrelle McCalin is a 3 technique, newsflash! That's the position that Baker played in our 3-4 defense the last two years and the same position/technique that the other DT plays in the 4-3.


See? I told you that someone would be along to tell us that we don't play a traditional 3-4.

So how's that working out for us Turtle?


Heck we don't play any defense usually so what's that old saying

"Anyway who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation"
Edward R Murrow
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thaiphoon wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't play a traditional 3-4. Just stop people. I can't understand why no one gets it. Our 3-4 NT plays the same exact look as a 4-3 NT which is the position that Stacy McGee played in Oakland. Terrelle McCalin is a 3 technique, newsflash! That's the position that Baker played in our 3-4 defense the last two years and the same position/technique that the other DT plays in the 4-3.


See? I told you that someone would be along to tell us that we don't play a traditional 3-4.

So how's that working out for us Turtle?
The problem with our DL & ILBs has been talent, not the scheme. If we had just one difference maker along the DL & just one at ILB over the last 2 years - like we do now with Allen & Brown - our defense would look a lot better.

You can't tell me the scheme doesn't work because it's worked for Wade Phillips and everywhere he's gone since the 90s. Personnel has been our problem, hopefully the personnel is better this year with the additions of Allen, Brown, McClain, McGee and Taylor and then Lanier and Ioannidis take the next step in his development to contribute as reserves along with Hood.

Yes, that's a lot of "if's" but McClain, McGee & Taylor were the guys that Jim Tomsula - who's one of the best DL coaches in the NFL - wanted Allen and company to sign. Hopefully, they live up to their potential.

And don't tell me switching back to staying with the 4-3 is the answer or if we had just kept that since 2010 it would have made a difference with our defense. Over that time period - other than 2011 when Bowen, Carriker, Cofield and Orakpo were all healthy - our DL talent has been below average, we've failed to find a consistent 3rd corner and a few years we didn't even have a good #2, and our safety play had been atrocious except for 1/2 of 2011 when Atogwe and Landry were healthy. We also have run the 4-3 as a nickle defense about 2/3 of the time since we began having the 3-4 as our base defense in 2010 so, it's not like we didn't run the 4-3 a majority of the time so, I refuse to be told that it's the scheme.

We've needed more talent on defense since 2008 when our vets started getting hurt. Hopefully, we finally have enough talent on this defense this year so we can be ranked somewhere in the teens because if we are and our running game is also ranked in the teens and can score around 20 rushing TDs then I think we'll be back in the playoffs given the potency of our passing game.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc Draper wrote:
Thaiphoon wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't play a traditional 3-4. Just stop people. I can't understand why no one gets it. Our 3-4 NT plays the same exact look as a 4-3 NT which is the position that Stacy McGee played in Oakland. Terrelle McCalin is a 3 technique, newsflash! That's the position that Baker played in our 3-4 defense the last two years and the same position/technique that the other DT plays in the 4-3.


See? I told you that someone would be along to tell us that we don't play a traditional 3-4.

So how's that working out for us Turtle?


Heck we don't play any defense usually so what's that old saying

"Anyway who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation"
Edward R Murrow
Exactly, our players haven't played well enough. Especially the DL, ILBs & safeties. Hopefully we've fixed that for this season, we'll find out in two months.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
We don't play a traditional 3-4. Just stop people. I can't understand why no one gets it. Our 3-4 NT plays the same exact look as a 4-3 NT which is the position that Stacy McGee played in Oakland. Terrelle McCalin is a 3 technique, newsflash! That's the position that Baker played in our 3-4 defense the last two years and the same position/technique that the other DT plays in the 4-3.


So ... how does a 4-3 NT work with only two other players alongside him? Essentially like a 3-4 NT, just out of position?
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't play a traditional 3-4. Just stop people. I can't understand why no one gets it. Our 3-4 NT plays the same exact look as a 4-3 NT which is the position that Stacy McGee played in Oakland. Terrelle McCalin is a 3 technique, newsflash! That's the position that Baker played in our 3-4 defense the last two years and the same position/technique that the other DT plays in the 4-3.


So ... how does a 4-3 NT work with only two other players alongside him? Essentially like a 3-4 NT, just out of position?
That doesn't even make sense. It's about the gap that our defensive linemen play. Our NT plays a one gap and shoots that gap to make a play in the backfield which is what 4-3 NTs do, they play the on gap most of the time. The defense we played under Haz the NT played a zero technique and two gapped. Then we have a guy - probably McClain or Allen - playing the 3 technique and we have one 5 technique DE who two gaps on the other side which will grate other guy. In the other 3-4 all our DL two gapped, in this defense we have two that are one gapping and the NT is one of them.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
We don't play a traditional 3-4. Just stop people. I can't understand why no one gets it. Our 3-4 NT plays the same exact look as a 4-3 NT which is the position that Stacy McGee played in Oakland. Terrelle McCalin is a 3 technique, newsflash! That's the position that Baker played in our 3-4 defense the last two years and the same position/technique that the other DT plays in the 4-3.


So ... how does a 4-3 NT work with only two other players alongside him? Essentially like a 3-4 NT, just out of position?
That doesn't even make sense. It's about the gap that our defensive linemen play. Our NT plays a one gap and shoots that gap to make a play in the backfield which is what 4-3 NTs do, they play the on gap most of the time. The defense we played under Haz the NT played a zero technique and two gapped. Then we have a guy - probably McClain or Allen - playing the 3 technique and we have one 5 technique DE who two gaps on the other side which will grate other guy. In the other 3-4 all our DL two gapped, in this defense we have two that are one gapping and the NT is one of them.




Okay, so from the perspective of the quarterback, our RDE (let's say that's Allen) is lined up as a 5-tech and is responsible for the left B & C gaps since he is outside of the tackle. That would make McGee responsible for the left A gap, and McClain responsible for the right A & B gaps?

Plus side: the left tackle has to worry about the ROLB (Smith?) and Allen, which is going to force the guard to probably commit left. This in turn would mean a one-on-one blocking situation between McGee and the center.

Minus side: The right side of the line is essentially held down by Allen, against a guard, tackle, and possible tight end (assuming he doesn't go out into a pattern). The pulling/up-field blocking options are enormous on runs, and it also gives escaping QBs a nice little cushion to run behind if the left side of the pocket collapses.

Okay, maybe the right guard decides to help out the center (since the center is generally the lightest player on the line) with McGee. That opens a nice wide hole up the right side either in the B or mor likely the C gap, as the right tackle just rolls up on the McClain and opens the door. The TE (or FB if out of the backfield) now has lead blocking duties against a linebacker. Call that a nice 5-10 yard run.


Or do I shift it to the right? Let's make Allen the RDE as the 3-tech, covering the left A&B gaps, McGee as the NT with just the right A gap tech, and McClain the 5 tech with right B&C gap responsibilities. Easy enough to blow a hole WIDE open up the middle. Also have a nice option with a right guard pull to destroy the ROLB (combined with the LT).


In short, you've said this multiple times. However, the defense still sucks. It is completely vulnerable to gashing runs. You claim this is because of talent. Maybe, but A) I don't think the additions of McClain and McGee mean jack on that front, and B) when is talent going to stop being an excuse?
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do I have to post the articles I've posted the last two offseaons again?

You're close in your analysis of the defensive front but not 100% accurate. Our NT is a 1-technique. He and the 3-technique are responsible for just 1 gap in our defense and their main job is to get upfield, get into the backfield and cause disruption. Unless we shift to a traditional 3-4 defense where all of or DL two-gap this is how our defense has been run since 2015. To my knowledge we have not run that defense at all since Haz was fired after 2014.

The ILBs are expected to fill the other gaps and we've had multiple issues the last two years with our run defense, it's not all on the defensive line but most of it is. Part of it is that both Will Compton and Keenan Robinson have mostly sucked at filling their gaps in the run game. Perry Riley and Mason Foster were good at it but the other ILBs weren't so we got gashed constantly.

So yes, it did have a lot to do with the talent or lack their of we had on the field.

McGee is a solid run defender. You can constantly claim he isn't without ever providing any evident to back that up other than he's never been a 3-4 DL but Jim Tomsula knows 3-4 DL, he worked in San Fran for 5 years developing and molding 3-4 DL.

I believe that McClain is also a better run defender than Chris Baker who he is replacing. Baker is a better pass rusher but McClain seems to be the more stout run defender and that's what we need most in the front 7 of our defense. When we go to our 4 down lineman look, McClain and amcGee will be rotated for guy's who are better pass rushers. One will come out, or both and guy's like Allen and Lanier will rotate in to be our inside rusher, or maybe even they'll bring in all of our pass rushing OLBs for a NASCAR type package on 3rd and long with Kerrigan and Smith or Murphy playing with their hands in the dirt over the guards and Gallete and Anderson playing as stand up OLBs. We did that some with Murphy and Kerrigan back in 2013 when we still had Orakpo.

We run a 4 down linemen look about 70% of the time so I don't really get what all the guys is about. You know more than I do about football and schemes and even I can see what the defense does and how they play on a regular basis. The defense we currently run also been analyzed by beat reporters and ex-players who are writers for years.

We haven't been a good run stopping defense because we haven't had the personnel for it since 2011.

I'm frankly tired of having this discussion. It's clear Redskins fans are going to believe what they want about the defensive scheme we currently run and are not willing learn what we do now in our defense. It's frustrating. Twisted Evil
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I'm frankly tired of having this discussion. It's clear Redskins fans are going to believe what they want about the defensive scheme we currently run and are not willing learn what we do now in our defense. It's frustrating. Twisted Evil


And it's frustrating that the coaching staff (and yourself) inexplicably cannot adjust to the fact that we don't have the talent to run said defense but keep trying to make it work even when everyone sees it does not.

Definition of insanity at its finest.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I'm frankly tired of having this discussion. It's clear Redskins fans are going to believe what they want about the defensive scheme we currently run and are not willing learn what we do now in our defense. It's frustrating. Twisted Evil


And it's frustrating that the coaching staff (and yourself) inexplicably cannot adjust to the fact that we don't have the talent to run said defense but keep trying to make it work even when everyone sees it does not.

Definition of insanity at its finest.
We didn't have the talent to have a good defense in either scheme though, that's where you missing the points and we have a 4 man front on defense 2/3 of the game, so what's your excuse about that? Obviously a 4 man front hasn't gotten the job done from 2012-2016 either! So switching back to 4-3 for every single snap would not have made a difference.

We just didn't have good enough players to win with on defense period. The last 5 years on defense we have been playing with mostly back up quality players all over our defense, not just the DL. It's hasn't been since 2011 when we truly had enough talent on our defense to be good. We were 13th overall that year and I believe 12th vs the pass. And that was with a horrible offense that constantly put them in bad positions and having to defend a short field because of the turnover machine and Shanahan favorite Rex Grossman.

Then, arguably our best two DL - definitely our top 2 DL pass rushers - and our pro bowl ROLB got hurt in 2012. On top of that we let Atogwe & Landry go because they couldn't stay healthy in 2011 (2010 & 2011 w/ Landry because of his Achilles) which, I never truly 100% agreed with while we franchised "smoke dog" Fred Davis. We replaced Atogwe with worse players like Madieu Williams, and the them over the hill/one foot out the door Ryan Clark.

We had the talent to have a good defense in 2011 & 2012. In 2011 the Haz 3-4, two-gap scheme was good and trending upward but almost unbelievably the entire defense got hurt over the next two seasons so we never got to see it become what it could have been if Bowen, Carriker, Orakpo, Atogwe and Landry had all stayed healthy and been retained from 2012 until 2015 or even now.

No one could have predicted we'd have that much bad luck going into 2012 with injuries to our defense. Shanahan thought he had the defense in place after 2011 to be good for the next 4 or 5 years but he couldn't have predicted all of those injuries. So, in 2012 we focused on fixing the offense both in free agency and the draft because we thought the D was set at least for the short term. Injuries derailed the defense though and unfortunately until this offseason we haven't truly invested in it because we've constantly been focused on building and fixing mistakes we made again because of injuries but this time on offense & defense since 2013.

I mean do you realize that Laron Landry, Adam Carriker, Barry Cofield and Stephen Bowen all turn 33 this year? We should have had them for a few more seasons or even on our roster now and Orakpo but injuries cost them and us on continuing to have a good D (particularly DL & S) from 2012 until the present.

Then you throw in how Shanahan mishandled the Landry injury situation and chose to keep Fred "Smoke Dog" Davis on the franchise tag over him. Sure, he'd be out of the league no matter what by now because of PEDs but he should have been on our roster for at least 2012 & 2013. And I still think we should have kept Atogwe around instead of cutting him in 2012 to see if he could stay more healthy, if not, then cut him after 2012 but going with Madieu Williams, Merriweather and then the washed up/one foot out the door Ryan clark in 2014 weren't better options.

We didn't invest in our defense enough when those injuries occurred after 2012 until what it appears like this offseason finally.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would it be different? Because:

We wouldn't be grabbing people and projecting them to play a style of defense most haven't played in their entire lives.

We wouldn't be competing with half of the league for certain critical players. You can by with average 4-3 DTs; you can't with 3-4 NTs.

With all of the new faces and investment this offseason, I'm pretty sure they'll still be at in the bottom half of the league in terms of defense (let's measure it by DVOA). Will they be at the rock bottom like they have been of late? No, but I would expect them still to be in the low-to-mid 20s.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
Why would it be different? Because:

We wouldn't be grabbing people and projecting them to play a style of defense most haven't played in their entire lives.

We wouldn't be competing with half of the league for certain critical players. You can by with average 4-3 DTs; you can't with 3-4 NTs.

With all of the new faces and investment this offseason, I'm pretty sure they'll still be at in the bottom half of the league in terms of defense (let's measure it by DVOA). Will they be at the rock bottom like they have been of late? No, but I would expect them still to be in the low-to-mid 20s.


Woz! We have played a 4-3 look and nickle defense at least 2/3 of the time on defense since 2012, it wouldn't have made a difference. Our problem on defense has been almost 100% lack of talent since 2012, not scheme.

The scheme we run now has as much 4-3 concepts incorporated into it as it does 3-4 concepts that's why we haven't drafted high or signed a true 320 plus pound stout two-gaping NT to a big contract to replace Barry Cofield since we cut him.

Sure, we could use that kid of guy for 1st downs and goal line/short yardage situations and that's why we signed Phil Taylor so hopefully can be that guy but at most that player in our current defense - and definitely given how much we are in the nickle defense - will only play 1/3 of the game at most and probably only 1/5 of the game.

You want to draft a NT high in the draft or sign a FA NT to a huge contract to only play 1/5 of the game, have at it but it seems like a bad investment to me when you can sign and draft guy's who are big and strong enough to play NT on first down and also have a role when we go into a 4 man front as well.
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