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2017 Summer League Thread | Starts July 1
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jfinley88


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
jfinley88 wrote:
not to say he's not gonna be a solid PG. those other dudes are just gonna be better probably iyam.


I mean, I get liking Markelle Fultz and Dennis Smith Jr. and I absolutely have no issues with anyone taking them over Lonzo Ball. At the end of the day, they're scoring guards and they're going to get their points. They're not quite the floor general or passers that Lonzo Ball is. And I'm not sure any of them are going to be strong defenders. I also don't think they're turnstiles either.

Agree and ranking is all preference obviously.. I mean ranking guys already in the NBA is gonna yield wild and varying results. Do think Fultz & DSJ will be better defenders than Lonzo and obviously better scorers unless something crazy happens w/ Lonzo's game. I think Lonzo is gonna be super fun to watch in his own way, but, at least imo, it's easier to build a successful team around those two other guys. Just on a different tier of ability.

As for Fox, the lack of a jumpshot really hurts him in my eyes. He's a blur, especially when he gets going but he's going to have issues creating offense in a half court set. He's probably the best individual defender of the PG that came out of the draft, and probably closest to Rajon Rondo in terms of skillset although he trades strength for speed.

I dunno man I just disagree w/ the half court offense sentiment. He's definitely gotta get better (as does Lonzo), but just think he brings more to the table in the things he can do and brings added value in the kind of guy he is imo. It's easier to see him being an All-Star level PG w/ what he currently has & the things he's gotta get better at juxtaposed to what Lonzo has to work w/ and the style of athlete he is.

Frank Ntilikina is quickly becoming the most overrated of the PG prospects. In his limited PT overseas, he wasn't a particularly great rebounder or passer. To me, he lacks a niche, an unrefined game, and quite frankly rather raw.

He's the tools-iest of all the guys being discussed. If he puts it all together he's the best (most valuable) PG in the draft. Could easily be the biggest bust too. He's not a smart passer all the time, but he's a skilled passer for sure. Doesn't have a niche? He plays his [inappropriate/removed] off and is probably the best defensive PG prospect we've seen in this decade.. But yeah I get not being a fan. To me on the tier rankings it was Fultz & DSJ 1. Fox alone in 2. & then Frank and Lonzo in 3. I don't got too much of an argument, just more intrigued w/ what I think Frank's peak could be v. Lonzo's.

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jrry32


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jfinley88 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
jfinley88 wrote:
not to say he's not gonna be a solid PG. those other dudes are just gonna be better probably iyam.


I mean, I get liking Markelle Fultz and Dennis Smith Jr. and I absolutely have no issues with anyone taking them over Lonzo Ball. At the end of the day, they're scoring guards and they're going to get their points. They're not quite the floor general or passers that Lonzo Ball is. And I'm not sure any of them are going to be strong defenders. I also don't think they're turnstiles either.

Agree and ranking is all preference obviously.. I mean ranking guys already in the NBA is gonna yield wild and varying results. Do think Fultz & DSJ will be better defenders than Lonzo and obviously better scorers unless something crazy happens w/ Lonzo's game. I think Lonzo is gonna be super fun to watch in his own way, but, at least imo, it's easier to build a successful team around those two other guys. Just on a different tier of ability.


You're underrating the impact a guy like Lonzo has. A player with his court vision, passing ability, and mental processing speed changes the game on offense. Lonzo has the ability to be a special passer. We're talking Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, Magic, Kidd, Stockton, etc. passing ability. Obviously, that's potential, but it's not unreasonable to think he can reach that potential based on what he's showing.

When you add that he has the potential to be an efficient scorer, yea, he has monster offensive potential. He doesn't have great on-the-ball defensive potential, but he has the potential to be a quality team defender. Plus, with his size, he can guard the lesser of the two opposing guards.

When you put all of that together, you have a guy who could be a HOF-caliber playmaker, efficient scorer (but more of a 12 to 16 PPG type of guy), and a guy who won't be a liability on defense. That's quite useful.

Now, maybe you don't think he has that sort of passing potential, but I'm not sure how one could look at what he's shown thus far and not think he's a guy who can give 9-10 APG.

Let's put it this way, imagine how valuable Ricky Rubio would be if he could score efficiently. Of course, Rubio is a quality defender, but still, I think you're selling Lonzo short.

I also will disagree with the notion that it's easier to build a team around scoring PGs. I think it's easier to build a team around an elite playmaker. There are a lot of guys in this league who can score. There aren't a lot of guys in this league who can create for others in the way Lonzo does. And when you have a guy who creates like that, as has been pointed out, it's contagious.
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jfinley88


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
jfinley88 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
jfinley88 wrote:
not to say he's not gonna be a solid PG. those other dudes are just gonna be better probably iyam.


I mean, I get liking Markelle Fultz and Dennis Smith Jr. and I absolutely have no issues with anyone taking them over Lonzo Ball. At the end of the day, they're scoring guards and they're going to get their points. They're not quite the floor general or passers that Lonzo Ball is. And I'm not sure any of them are going to be strong defenders. I also don't think they're turnstiles either.

Agree and ranking is all preference obviously.. I mean ranking guys already in the NBA is gonna yield wild and varying results. Do think Fultz & DSJ will be better defenders than Lonzo and obviously better scorers unless something crazy happens w/ Lonzo's game. I think Lonzo is gonna be super fun to watch in his own way, but, at least imo, it's easier to build a successful team around those two other guys. Just on a different tier of ability.


You're underrating the impact a guy like Lonzo has. A player with his court vision, passing ability, and mental processing speed changes the game on offense. Lonzo has the ability to be a special passer. We're talking Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, Magic, Kidd, Stockton, etc. passing ability. Obviously, that's potential, but it's not unreasonable to think he can reach that potential based on what he's showing.

He's already like one of the most special passers in the league, that's not "potential", he's already there. He's ridiculously fun to watch operate an offense, no doubt.

When you add that he has the potential to be an efficient scorer, yea, he has monster offensive potential. He doesn't have great on-the-ball defensive potential, but he has the potential to be a quality team defender. Plus, with his size, he can guard the lesser of the two opposing guards.

Being an "efficient scorer" is gonna be tough for him. Even if he's taking the right shots, it's gonna be a challenge. He's gonna be fine there (on D), but he is what he is there. Hard for him to bring positive value there.

When you put all of that together, you have a guy who could be a HOF-caliber playmaker, efficient scorer (but more of a 12 to 16 PPG type of guy), and a guy who won't be a liability on defense. That's quite useful.

Yeah, not saying he's not gonna be a good player. And depending on what you want out of your PG, there's a lot of situations where you'd have number one on your big board. You said I was "underrating" that value of his ability to orchestrate and really it's all situational w/ your roster. On LAL right now w/ their roster he's gonna be super fun and be in a situation to look really good. If you got multiple really really good players on the court w/ him his value declines a little and he's a harder guy to project contributing the same level of value that DSJ & Fultz could bring, I feel.

Now, maybe you don't think he has that sort of passing potential, but I'm not sure how one could look at what he's shown thus far and not think he's a guy who can give 9-10 APG.

Nah, he 100% is ridiculous there. Think everyone who is aware of who Lonzo Ball would attest to that...

Let's put it this way, imagine how valuable Ricky Rubio would be if he could score efficiently. Of course, Rubio is a quality defender, but still, I think you're selling Lonzo short.

You're talking to Rubio hater, but I feel you.

I also will disagree with the notion that it's easier to build a team around scoring PGs. I think it's easier to build a team around an elite playmaker. There are a lot of guys in this league who can score. There aren't a lot of guys in this league who can create for others in the way Lonzo does. And when you have a guy who creates like that, as has been pointed out, it's contagious.

I mean yeah if you blanket term those guys as just "scoring guards", then I guess yeah you'd prefer to have the "elite playmaker" over the "scoring guard", but then you're not factoring in the other ways those guys make an impact. Those guys are closer to being legit playmakers than Lonzo is to being a scorer. And that's ignoring everything else.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ball is going to be able to score better than Rubio and he will be leading top 3-5 offenses throughout his career. Ball's outside jumper will be inconsistent to start his career but if he could develop that 15-17 foot mid range pull up off the pick and roll, he will be fine. I'm a big DSJ as he was my second favorite player in the draft behind Jackson so I got no problem with anyone preferring him over Ball. I'd say DSJ potential is higher than Fultz but overall you really can't go wrong with any of these top PGs in this stacked draft. You could make cases for pretty much any of them including Fox.

Ball is going to be the one that changes the culture of the franchise though. The Lakers are going to be a ball moving machine.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lonzo is a basketball genius. Watching a passer like that is gonna be so fun.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Baron Davis a good comp for DSJ?
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CAS22


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Is Baron Davis a good comp for DSJ?

BD/Franchise combo.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CAS22 wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
Is Baron Davis a good comp for DSJ?

BD/Franchise combo.
what about Kyle Kuzma? I'm thinking Robert Horry
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ball's the most unique PG prospect since Steph
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l3lind golfer


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
Ball's the most unique PG prospect since Steph
Why? As a prospect, I don't remember Curry being super highly thought of. Obviously he was a really good prospect, but he had a lot of detractors.
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Supersuavesky


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

l3lind golfer wrote:
Darkness wrote:
Ball's the most unique PG prospect since Steph
Why? As a prospect, I don't remember Curry being super highly thought of. Obviously he was a really good prospect, but he had a lot of detractors.
Lonzo was clearly the better prospect.
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indifference


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

l3lind golfer wrote:
Darkness wrote:
Ball's the most unique PG prospect since Steph
Why? As a prospect, I don't remember Curry being super highly thought of. Obviously he was a really good prospect, but he had a lot of detractors.
The keyword here is unique. Curry offered a 3pt shooting range that we've never seen before from a PG. Ball offers 3pt shooting range and elite court vision/passing out the gate. Once he works on getting a better handle like Curry he will be a MVP candidate annually in the future.
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DirtyDez


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supersuavesky wrote:
l3lind golfer wrote:
Darkness wrote:
Ball's the most unique PG prospect since Steph
Why? As a prospect, I don't remember Curry being super highly thought of. Obviously he was a really good prospect, but he had a lot of detractors.
Lonzo was clearly the better prospect.


Ppl don't remember Curry getting picked apart during the draft process. There wasn't a team taking him over Harden. Flynn? Well...
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chiefs82


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyDez wrote:
Supersuavesky wrote:
l3lind golfer wrote:
Darkness wrote:
Ball's the most unique PG prospect since Steph
Why? As a prospect, I don't remember Curry being super highly thought of. Obviously he was a really good prospect, but he had a lot of detractors.
Lonzo was clearly the better prospect.


Ppl don't remember Curry getting picked apart during the draft process. There wasn't a team taking him over Harden. Flynn? Well...


People ragged on his frame, his ability or inability to make everyone else around him better, if his shooting/scoring would translate to the NBA..he was far from perfect
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Agree and ranking is all preference obviously.. I mean ranking guys already in the NBA is gonna yield wild and varying results. Do think Fultz & DSJ will be better defenders than Lonzo and obviously better scorers unless something crazy happens w/ Lonzo's game. I think Lonzo is gonna be super fun to watch in his own way, but, at least imo, it's easier to build a successful team around those two other guys. Just on a different tier of ability.


LIS, if you want to take Fultz or DSJ instead of Ball, I wouldn't argue too hard. They're going to get their points, which at the end of the day is going to be effective. They might not be the passer that Ball is, but they're also a bigger threat as a scoring threat.


Quote:
I dunno man I just disagree w/ the half court offense sentiment. He's definitely gotta get better (as does Lonzo), but just think he brings more to the table in the things he can do and brings added value in the kind of guy he is imo. It's easier to see him being an All-Star level PG w/ what he currently has & the things he's gotta get better at juxtaposed to what Lonzo has to work w/ and the style of athlete he is.


Except there's nothing that would give you the idea that he's going to miraculously figure out how to shoot. I mean, how long did we wait for Rajon Rondo to figure out a jumpshot? Or Ricky Rubio? Guys who come in with bad shots don't generally become good shooters. And I'm still not sure he'll ever become serviceable in that regard. Defensively, he's worlds better than Ball will ever be, but that's largely tools. I just don't see him being more than average offensively and that really kills him in my eyes.


Quote:
He's the tools-iest of all the guys being discussed. If he puts it all together he's the best (most valuable) PG in the draft. Could easily be the biggest bust too. He's not a smart passer all the time, but he's a skilled passer for sure. Doesn't have a niche? He plays his [inappropriate/removed] off and is probably the best defensive PG prospect we've seen in this decade.. But yeah I get not being a fan. To me on the tier rankings it was Fultz & DSJ 1. Fox alone in 2. & then Frank and Lonzo in 3. I don't got too much of an argument, just more intrigued w/ what I think Frank's peak could be v. Lonzo's.


And you're essentially overrating tools IMO. He's nowhere near the passer that Lonzo is, and I'm not sure he'll ever be that way. Quite frankly, he's no different than Dennis Schroeder for me. A good, but not great PG.
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