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If Eli and Flacco suck this year, should NY and BAL move on?
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breesus mode wrote:

1. That happens to every QB, and it isn't an excuse.

2. Luck and Brees can make every throw Flacco can make.

4. I never said Flacco's teamates elevated Flacco's play, just that Flacco never elevated his teamates level of play.

The results aren't very good, an anemic offense, missing the playoffs, and not a very high level of play.

Matt Ryan just took his team to the superbowl and played significantly better, that's a bad argument.


Flacco can make throws that neither of those two can make but they are the low percentage throws that don't matter a great deal. I'd take Brees' overall arm over just about any QB ever in terms of his willingness and accuracy on the intermediate/deep throws. He can't throw it as far as Flacco though he averages over a half yard per attempt in air yards over the last 8 years and probably close to a full yard more per throw the last two years where Flacco has been towards the bottom in air yards. I do think the offense is wrong for Flacco's strengths and that is part of the problem. His completion percentage has risen to a respectful number but everything else had taken a pretty good hit over the last couple years.
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Breesus mode


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:

1. That happens to every QB, and it isn't an excuse.

2. Luck and Brees can make every throw Flacco can make.

4. I never said Flacco's teamates elevated Flacco's play, just that Flacco never elevated his teamates level of play.

The results aren't very good, an anemic offense, missing the playoffs, and not a very high level of play.

Matt Ryan just took his team to the superbowl and played significantly better, that's a bad argument.


Flacco can make throws that neither of those two can make but they are the low percentage throws that don't matter a great deal. I'd take Brees' overall arm over just about any QB ever in terms of his willingness and accuracy on the intermediate/deep throws. He can't throw it as far as Flacco though he averages over a half yard per attempt in air yards over the last 8 years and probably close to a full yard more per throw the last two years where Flacco has been towards the bottom in air yards. I do think the offense is wrong for Flacco's strengths and that is part of the problem. His completion percentage has risen to a respectful number but everything else had taken a pretty good hit over the last couple years.

I don't know if that's true, you'd be surprised how far Drew Brees can throw it, as well as his placement on deep balls.

Agree with the rest though.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breesus mode wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:

1. That happens to every QB, and it isn't an excuse.

2. Luck and Brees can make every throw Flacco can make.

4. I never said Flacco's teamates elevated Flacco's play, just that Flacco never elevated his teamates level of play.

The results aren't very good, an anemic offense, missing the playoffs, and not a very high level of play.

Matt Ryan just took his team to the superbowl and played significantly better, that's a bad argument.


Flacco can make throws that neither of those two can make but they are the low percentage throws that don't matter a great deal. I'd take Brees' overall arm over just about any QB ever in terms of his willingness and accuracy on the intermediate/deep throws. He can't throw it as far as Flacco though he averages over a half yard per attempt in air yards over the last 8 years and probably close to a full yard more per throw the last two years where Flacco has been towards the bottom in air yards. I do think the offense is wrong for Flacco's strengths and that is part of the problem. His completion percentage has risen to a respectful number but everything else had taken a pretty good hit over the last couple years.

I don't know if that's true, you'd be surprised how far Drew Brees can throw it, as well as his placement on deep balls.

Agree with the rest though.

I have a lot of respect for Brees' arm and I honestly wouldn't argue against anyone saying he is the best passer ever because he routinely completes low percentage passes that many QBs, even great ones, are reluctant to throw into coverage.

He still doesn't have Flacco/Newton arm strength. He is a lot better than either of them imo so it obviously doesn't matter but they have cannons. So do a lot of quarterbacks who aren't any good at all. It certainly isn't near the top of what it takes to be an NFL QB. Brees arm is good and it seemed to get better after the injury so it isn't a weakness in his game in any way he just doesn't have the top 1% arm, Luck doesn't either. Brees' is stronger than Luck's by a decent margin I believe.
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Breesus mode


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:

1. That happens to every QB, and it isn't an excuse.

2. Luck and Brees can make every throw Flacco can make.

4. I never said Flacco's teamates elevated Flacco's play, just that Flacco never elevated his teamates level of play.

The results aren't very good, an anemic offense, missing the playoffs, and not a very high level of play.

Matt Ryan just took his team to the superbowl and played significantly better, that's a bad argument.


Flacco can make throws that neither of those two can make but they are the low percentage throws that don't matter a great deal. I'd take Brees' overall arm over just about any QB ever in terms of his willingness and accuracy on the intermediate/deep throws. He can't throw it as far as Flacco though he averages over a half yard per attempt in air yards over the last 8 years and probably close to a full yard more per throw the last two years where Flacco has been towards the bottom in air yards. I do think the offense is wrong for Flacco's strengths and that is part of the problem. His completion percentage has risen to a respectful number but everything else had taken a pretty good hit over the last couple years.

I don't know if that's true, you'd be surprised how far Drew Brees can throw it, as well as his placement on deep balls.

Agree with the rest though.

I have a lot of respect for Brees' arm and I honestly wouldn't argue against anyone saying he is the best passer ever because he routinely completes low percentage passes that many QBs, even great ones, are reluctant to throw into coverage.

He still doesn't have Flacco/Newton arm strength. He is a lot better than either of them imo so it obviously doesn't matter but they have cannons. So do a lot of quarterbacks who aren't any good at all. It certainly isn't near the top of what it takes to be an NFL QB. Brees arm is good and it seemed to get better after the injury so it isn't a weakness in his game in any way he just doesn't have the top 1% arm, Luck doesn't either. Brees' is stronger than Luck's by a decent margin I believe.

Fair.
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Danand wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:
Danand wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Danand wrote:
Damn you have a lot of time on your hands.

This is what it boils down to.

1) You make an argument based on some stats which suits your point

2) This is how make other arguments which you consider valid
Quote:
Valid argument about guys like Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, or Ben Rothelisberger just being better quarterbacks than flacco?


1. All arguments are made on reasoning that suits the point. That is literally the point of any argument, to use evidence that supports your point. The point is to see who has more convincing evidence.

The problem is you haven't shown any evidence to support your point about Flacco in the last 4 years except team wins.

ANY statistic I pull up is "meaningless" because it "suits my point", meaning that there's literally nothing I can say which is "valid' because any non-stat is "just my opinion".


2.No actually it isn't, but some things don't really need explaining. I don't need to explain why Tom Brady is better than Jared Goff, he just is. Notice how no other ravens fans have mentioned Flacco as a top 10 quarterback?

Luck is widely considered a top 10 quarterback at worst. Brees top 5 at worst.

Flacco isn't a top 10 quarterback right now so there's a clear enough gap, but I'll explain it anyway based on three categories.

Arm Talent: Luck and Brees have better arm TALENT, better touch, can throw from different plaforms better.

Accuracy: Brees and Luck have some of the best ball placement in the NFL. I can show numerous examples, but Flacco isn't on that level.

Pocket Movement: Luck and Brees have some of the best pocket presence in the NFL, have shown the ability to step up and consistently avoid sacks, make plays out of the pocket, and are better improvisers than Flacco.

I can show you numerous examples of both, but I'm sure you'll refuse to listen because everything is "just an opinion".

And sure, why not throw in statistics just for good measure, because they aren't opinions.

Passer rating takes into consideration efficiency per throw (YPA, touchdown percentage interception percentage, and completion percentage). It's not a nitpick because it combines all of these numbers.

Flacco's passer rating over the past 4 years: 83
Brees's: 101
Luck's: 89

The thing about statistics is, you can't find a reliable statistic that shows that Flacco is better than either of these guys over the last 4 years. That's why you continue to complain over them. Why don't you find just one credible statistic and share it with all of us? Or explain in football terms why they are better. Or admit you're unable to do so and move on amicably.


1) You have yet to explain why Flacco can provide better results than all your examples of quarterbacks who are so much better - because stats and opinions prove it.

2) I have bolded the parts where you claim something, which is not facts. One example is arm talent, which I thought was the one thing Flacco had going for him. Apparently not because you think so.

3) Try and answer some of the other Ravens fans posts so I can avoid spending time proving you wrong. I simply don't have the time to write the small essays you seem to like.

4) My point is, once again, that while teams like the Colts and Saints have valued their offense so much, they haven't been able to build a team which their QB can take to the playoffs and perform. They have to aid their QB's so much, that they post good stats, but not results. Ofc as QB stats is what is most important instead of pointing to how much a QB can do with the players he is surrounded with.

How is 1 QB worth a 100 million, because he puts up something something passer rating and various flashy stats, if the rest of the team can't carry their load, because you have to surround the QB with weapons?

While another isn't worth 100 million, because he isn't flashy, but can do enough with the talent around him?

I believe it was another Ravens fan who pointed to, that we don't know what Flacco can do with an elite supporting cast - because he has never had it. Go answer his posts instead.

1. He hasn't, and Luck and Bress have had bad (Luck) and all-time terrible (Brees) defenses. And wins don't define who a better QB is, their play does, and stats are a measure of play.

2. He didn't say arm-strength, because its indisputable Flacco has the strongest arm, he said arm-talent, which is a broader qualifier than arm-strength, and then listed why Brees and Luck have better arm-talent.

3. Other Raven fans really haven't proven him wrong.

4. Neither have the Ravens. Just barely missing doesn't count. Yeah, because you invest in getting a franchise QB help, especially for a younger player like Luck, and an ageing player like Brees. Not investing in help is beyond idiotic, and is one of the reasons the Ravens have had such an anemic offense. And while Luck hasn't proven quite yet he can elevate the talent around him, Brees most certainly has. There's a fairly large list of the player Brees has made look better than they actually were. Ask Charger fans how Devery Henderson did on their team compared to ours. Speaking of making sue with what you have, Andrew Luck posted better numbers on a team with much less talent than Flacco is on, And again, Brees has made a career of making players better than they are, and don't even get me started on the defense.

Its funny you say this, because the Ravens have invested in trying to find weapons, they just haven't invested very well, and its part of the problem. And why the hell wouldn't you invest in surrounding your franchise QB with weapons? Do you think they shouldn't? Ask Texans fans how that worked out with David Carr.


You can look at that Matt Ryan guy, who had great games, nice stats, but had to have a great oline and more offensive targets and a better defense to actually produce the same result Flacco has.

Sry, but you guys can't actually explain, why Flacco has the accolades he has, unless you give him the credit he is due, and that is what annoys you so much.


Matt Ryan was the league MVP, he put up 28 points in the superbowl, and ultimately, bad playcalling and the Falcons defense failed him. How in any way is that the same as what Flacco has produced? Are you seriously saying that Flacco could have played as well as Ryan did last year in that offense?

Ryan had a great OL and targets, but that doesn't take away from the decisions he made, or the throws he made. He was lights out all year. I'll take Ryan last year over maybe a handful of guys and that's just preference.

No one is trying to explain why Flacco won a superbowl. He had a good postseason, no one is denying that. We're talking about him living up to his contract in terms of performance over the last 4 years and how his individual performance hasn't measured up to these other guys. It doesn't mean the team hasn't gotten some results, but if Flacco played better, they might have more.


Joe Flacco put up 31 points against the Patriots in the AFCC, but unfortunately our secondary sucked too hard. That is one of the years where he lived up to his contract post the SB victory. This is more than some of the other QB mentioned have done.

Again, your argument falter.
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:


You can look at that Matt Ryan guy, who had great games, nice stats, but had to have a great oline and more offensive targets and a better defense to actually produce the same result Flacco has.

Sry, but you guys can't actually explain, why Flacco has the accolades he has, unless you give him the credit he is due, and that is what annoys you so much.


Danand wrote:
Joe Flacco put up 31 points against the Patriots in the AFCC, but unfortunately our secondary sucked too hard. That is one of the years where he lived up to his contract post the SB victory. This is more than some of the other QB mentioned have done.

Again, your argument falter.


Uhh, what a tremendous strawman. You were insinuating that the league MVP needed a better cast and defense to "accomplish what Flacco also did". The difference is that Ryan was MVP and may be a hall of fame qb one day for his efforts over the last few years . Flacco won't be.

And if we're going off of "results", Ryan made it to the superbowl in a stacked NFC. He helped beat Green Bay and Seattle, 2 of the 3 other top teams in the NFC. Flacco helped defeat the Steelers, then lost to the pats. Are we considering context here or nah? Guess who had the best passer rating in the playoffs last year? That's right, Matt Ryan with an unbelievable passer rating of 135.3. You're trying to discredit Ryan to compare him to Flacco, just like you've done for many quarterbacks in this thread.

You really think I was referring to one game when I talked about "Flacco playing better"? I was referring to his overall play over the last 4 years, which in all honesty from everything I've seen ranges from somewhere from average to mediocre. I'm sure Flacco's play has NOTHING to do with the fact that in the last 4 years, the Ravens have made the posteason a grand total of once.

Great, Flacco had a great AFC Championship game. For any quarterback who's started for 4 years, I can think of a great game they've had. One game doesn't change the last 4 years worth of play, or vault him over all the quarterbacks you think he's better than. Does 1 game determine the value of a contract?

You're seriously suggesting that all of us should consider Flacco better than all of these superior quarterbacks because their TEAMS didn't reach the AFC championship game?

And it's not like you're getting sympathy for your takes in here either. Even Ravens fans don't agree with your takes. You're welcome to think whatever you think, but the fact that no one in here is agreeing with you is a bit troubling.
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Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
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Danand


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Danand wrote:


You can look at that Matt Ryan guy, who had great games, nice stats, but had to have a great oline and more offensive targets and a better defense to actually produce the same result Flacco has.

Sry, but you guys can't actually explain, why Flacco has the accolades he has, unless you give him the credit he is due, and that is what annoys you so much.


Danand wrote:
Joe Flacco put up 31 points against the Patriots in the AFCC, but unfortunately our secondary sucked too hard. That is one of the years where he lived up to his contract post the SB victory. This is more than some of the other QB mentioned have done.

Again, your argument falter.


Uhh, what a tremendous strawman. You were insinuating that the league MVP needed a better cast and defense to "accomplish what Flacco also did". The difference is that Ryan was MVP and may be a hall of fame qb one day for his efforts over the last few years . Flacco won't be.

And if we're going off of "results", Ryan made it to the superbowl in a stacked NFC. He helped beat Green Bay and Seattle, 2 of the 3 other top teams in the NFC. Flacco helped defeat the Steelers, then lost to the pats. Are we considering context here or nah? Guess who had the best passer rating in the playoffs last year? That's right, Matt Ryan with an unbelievable passer rating of 135.3. You're trying to discredit Ryan to compare him to Flacco, just like you've done for many quarterbacks in this thread.

You really think I was referring to one game when I talked about "Flacco playing better"? I was referring to his overall play over the last 4 years, which in all honesty from everything I've seen ranges from somewhere from average to mediocre. I'm sure Flacco's play has NOTHING to do with the fact that in the last 4 years, the Ravens have made the posteason a grand total of once.

Great, Flacco had a great AFC Championship game. For any quarterback who's started for 4 years, I can think of a great game they've had. One game doesn't change the last 4 years worth of play, or vault him over all the quarterbacks you think he's better than. Does 1 game determine the value of a contract?

You're seriously suggesting that all of us should consider Flacco better than all of these superior quarterbacks because their TEAMS didn't reach the AFC championship game?

And it's not like you're getting sympathy for your takes in here either. Even Ravens fans don't agree with your takes. You're welcome to think whatever you think, but the fact that no one in here is agreeing with you is a bit troubling.


U mad? Seem to be, just because I don't agree with you.

You still don't have an explanation for why Flacco put up the results he does, unless you claim he has elite talent around him. I guess even you would find that difficult to find stats to back up.

You still base all this upon Flaccos last 4 years. You really think he would have lasted if it wasn't for good games?

If there is one thing you don't take into consideration, it is context. You isolate plays, games to fit your narrative. That is why we are having this argument.

My point is, that looking at what Flacco has done over an extended period of time, he is worth his contract. That is something you can't accept.
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M.10.E


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get it, usually it's the fans of the team that want a new quarterback. But, for the Ravens, it's everyone who doesn't watch Flacco week in and week out.

The majority of Ravens fans want to keep Flacco, yet everyone else is clamoring for the Ravens to move on while watching him less than everyone saying "keep him".

I'm stumped.
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Breesus mode


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Danand wrote:


You can look at that Matt Ryan guy, who had great games, nice stats, but had to have a great oline and more offensive targets and a better defense to actually produce the same result Flacco has.

Sry, but you guys can't actually explain, why Flacco has the accolades he has, unless you give him the credit he is due, and that is what annoys you so much.


Danand wrote:
Joe Flacco put up 31 points against the Patriots in the AFCC, but unfortunately our secondary sucked too hard. That is one of the years where he lived up to his contract post the SB victory. This is more than some of the other QB mentioned have done.

Again, your argument falter.


Uhh, what a tremendous strawman. You were insinuating that the league MVP needed a better cast and defense to "accomplish what Flacco also did". The difference is that Ryan was MVP and may be a hall of fame qb one day for his efforts over the last few years . Flacco won't be.

And if we're going off of "results", Ryan made it to the superbowl in a stacked NFC. He helped beat Green Bay and Seattle, 2 of the 3 other top teams in the NFC. Flacco helped defeat the Steelers, then lost to the pats. Are we considering context here or nah? Guess who had the best passer rating in the playoffs last year? That's right, Matt Ryan with an unbelievable passer rating of 135.3. You're trying to discredit Ryan to compare him to Flacco, just like you've done for many quarterbacks in this thread.

You really think I was referring to one game when I talked about "Flacco playing better"? I was referring to his overall play over the last 4 years, which in all honesty from everything I've seen ranges from somewhere from average to mediocre. I'm sure Flacco's play has NOTHING to do with the fact that in the last 4 years, the Ravens have made the posteason a grand total of once.

Great, Flacco had a great AFC Championship game. For any quarterback who's started for 4 years, I can think of a great game they've had. One game doesn't change the last 4 years worth of play, or vault him over all the quarterbacks you think he's better than. Does 1 game determine the value of a contract?

You're seriously suggesting that all of us should consider Flacco better than all of these superior quarterbacks because their TEAMS didn't reach the AFC championship game?

And it's not like you're getting sympathy for your takes in here either. Even Ravens fans don't agree with your takes. You're welcome to think whatever you think, but the fact that no one in here is agreeing with you is a bit troubling.


U mad? Seem to be, just because I don't agree with you.

You still don't have an explanation for why Flacco put up the results he does, unless you claim he has elite talent around him. I guess even you would find that difficult to find stats to back up.

You still base all this upon Flaccos last 4 years. You really think he would have lasted if it wasn't for good games?

If there is one thing you don't take into consideration, it is context. You isolate plays, games to fit your narrative. That is why we are having this argument.

My point is, that looking at what Flacco has done over an extended period of time, he is worth his contract. That is something you can't accept.

What results? An anemic offense, inconsistent play, or missing the playoffs? Such awesome results.
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.10.E wrote:
I don't get it, usually it's the fans of the team that want a new quarterback. But, for the Ravens, it's everyone who doesn't watch Flacco week in and week out.

The majority of Ravens fans want to keep Flacco, yet everyone else is clamoring for the Ravens to move on while watching him less than everyone saying "keep him".

I'm stumped.


Wait a sec. "Everyone" doesn't watch Flacco? Hmm...

No one is saying move on from him. I'd still consider Flacco a franchise quarterback in that it would be hard to replace him, considering how hard it is to find quarterbacks in the NFL.

That being said, I'm pretty sold on quite a few guys ahead of him, which is still my opinion, but I've definitely watched every qb who i've ranked. You might be surprised how well some of these guys on other teams are playing. For example, someone might say "LOL Tanehill", but Tanehill has been a pretty solid/slightly above avg qb over the last 3-4 years, especially considering how bad his offensive line has been.
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Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
M.10.E wrote:
I don't get it, usually it's the fans of the team that want a new quarterback. But, for the Ravens, it's everyone who doesn't watch Flacco week in and week out.

The majority of Ravens fans want to keep Flacco, yet everyone else is clamoring for the Ravens to move on while watching him less than everyone saying "keep him".

I'm stumped.


Wait a sec. "Everyone" doesn't watch Flacco? Hmm...

No one is saying move on from him. I'd still consider Flacco a franchise quarterback in that it would be hard to replace him, considering how hard it is to find quarterbacks in the NFL.

That being said, I'm pretty sold on quite a few guys ahead of him, which is still my opinion, but I've definitely watched every qb who i've ranked. You might be surprised how well some of these guys on other teams are playing. For example, someone might say "LOL Tanehill", but Tanehill has been a pretty solid/slightly above avg qb over the last 3-4 years, especially considering how bad his offensive line has been.


Yeah I don't think the Ravens should (or could anyway) move on from Flacco and I don't blame them for giving him a big contract after the SB win. He just hasn't lived up to his contract. I probably watch 5 Ravens games per year or more than any team outside of the AFCN and I see a lot of quarterbacks performing better than Flacco. Maybe those 11 other games the stats don't tell the real story but since they align pretty well with what I see I'm more inclined to believe that the QB I've seen play 40 times in his career is probably pretty close to the QB Raven fans see each week. He is streaky and overall averagish but statistically closer to bottom 10.

Sure Flacco hasn't had the greatest skill players around him but most quarterbacks don't. The Ravens #1 WR makes more than the top 6 Saint WRs. The Ravens draft 1st round offensive talent at the same rate as the Saints (Actually moreso since Flacco was drafted). Maybe the Saints have been luckier with their drafting and acquisitions of offensive talent or maybe it has more to do with the system or QB.

If Flacco were great we'd all know it. We don't. He isn't. He is serviceable and if his team makes the playoffs and he gets on a hot streak we saw what can happen. He carried and underdog team to a championship. If they make the playoffs again and it aligns with a hot streak it could happen again. He just isn't instant offense week in and week out like the top flight quarterbacks.
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breesus mode wrote:


U mad? Seem to be, just because I don't agree with you.

You still don't have an explanation for why Flacco put up the results he does, unless you claim he has elite talent around him. I guess even you would find that difficult to find stats to back up.

You still base all this upon Flaccos last 4 years. You really think he would have lasted if it wasn't for good games?

If there is one thing you don't take into consideration, it is context. You isolate plays, games to fit your narrative. That is why we are having this argument.

My point is, that looking at what Flacco has done over an extended period of time, he is worth his contract. That is something you can't accept.

What results? An anemic offense, inconsistent play, or missing the playoffs? Such awesome results.[/quote]

The "results" is an offense that has been:

2013:29th
2014:12th
2015:14th
2016:17th

in scoring offense.

Compare that to Ryan:
2013:14th
2014:8th
2015:7th
2016:1st

"same results". I'm not even implying that this is fair, considering that football is a team game, but you keep saying "same results" and I'm not seeing it at all.
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Danand wrote:
Carr is 22-25,no playoff games, I'd take Flacco over him.To me it seems like Flacco is just where he belongs. Behind the Brady, Roethlisberger,Rivers,Rodgers,Wilson and ahead of Carr,Tannehill,Cousins,Palmer,Dalton,Luck
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Breesus mode


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 7245
Location: Tucson Arizona
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously, I'd love to see these results.
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catcheryea wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
you missed a crying jordan in the middle of your sig man.
you missed a bowl game at the end of your season
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 15342
Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breesus mode wrote:
Seriously, I'd love to see these results.


This is all you're getting.






Sure that was before his current contract which we are discussing but that picture is his answer to pretty much anything. He carried the team that year and the only reason he hasn't carried the team in the years after is because they were injured, the defense gave up too many points to the Pats and the talent around him wasn't good enough...to be carried.

Prove that Aaron Rodgers could win with the Ravens...you can't so he couldn't.

I really think this is 90% fake. There is no way Flacco would consider himself a top 5 QB so a fan doing it is really silly. You don't watch Flacco enough to see what he sees which tells him he is better than Brees (who he doesn't have to watch as often as you do to know how good he is). Facts, stats, accolades (besides 2012) etc... mean nothing it is about what he knows. You can't change what he knows.
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ditchdigger wrote:
*Zayne
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Posts: 1060
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Breesus mode wrote:
Seriously, I'd love to see these results.


This is all you're getting.






Sure that was before his current contract which we are discussing but that picture is his answer to pretty much anything. He carried the team that year and the only reason he hasn't carried the team in the years after is because they were injured, the defense gave up too many points to the Pats and the talent around him wasn't good enough...to be carried.

Prove that Aaron Rodgers could win with the Ravens...you can't so he couldn't.

I really think this is 90% fake. There is no way Flacco would consider himself a top 5 QB so a fan doing it is really silly. You don't watch Flacco enough to see what he sees which tells him he is better than Brees (who he doesn't have to watch as often as you do to know how good he is). Facts, stats, accolades (besides 2012) etc... mean nothing it is about what he knows. You can't change what he knows.


This could be said as well as especially that Oakland guys argumentation.

You have still still still not come up with an explanation, that could tell the story about how streaky, below average, bad Flacco have been able to take his team to 6 playoffs in 9 years, and 2 of those years, the team was within 1 game of the playoffs. In the final year, the whole thing sucked and Flacco got injured.

I believe the initial argument was, if Flacco was worth his contract, and when some idiot ended up claiming he was, the stats police came to finish me off. I don't buy into the whole stats thing because of the many many variables which a single play consists off.

Flacco came into a perfect world, just as Roethlisberger and Flacco and Wilson did, and the defence, the running game and a sturdy solid Todd Heap was enough to help him get to the playoffs.

In his first 2-3 seasons, the team was most likely the best Flacco played with, especially with a Ray Rice running the football. Balanced and didn't have to force Flacco to put up 4.000 yards and other statistical accolades which makes you guys when and scream ELITE QB, rabble rabble rabble.

2011 and Flacco and the team came very close to win against the Patriots away - and yes, Flacco played well and he doesn't collapse in the playoffs which other QB's have done.

In 2012 in a contract year, Flacco had that miraculous super bowl run, where great play along with a morronic play from a Denver safety helped the team to a super bowl - one of the most exciting and crazy we have seen. Flacco played well again in that game - and he got paid. At that point he had already outplayed his contract and proved more than enough.

2013 we fielded a historical bad oline, and Flacco suffered from it. This shouldn't suprise anyone, as an oline is the greatest help to a QB. 9 of the games in that season was won within a field goal I believe. Ravens got blown out of the patriots in round 16 and lost the game against the Bengals in round 17 which could have taken them to the playoffs.

Kubiak really changed the offense and helped Flacco play to his strengths in 2014 and Flacco delivered and again played well enough with what he had to take the game within plays of another super bowl. Some missed plays and some creativity from the hooded avenger on the Patriots sideline was what kept the Ravens out of the promised land.

2015 was just a crazy injury riddled year, where none really played well. Flacco would in case the refs knew the rules have 4 wins to 6 losses when he got injured.

2016 Flacco played bad coming off injury, then played better but wasn't helped much by the defense that gave up several leads late in the game. Still, a playoff berth was within yards against the Steelers.

Flacco doesn't (except a record setting game against Bucs) put up a lot of numbers when the team is leading, which other QB's do (which inflate stats). He has had 5 different coordinators since 2012 (1 was fired mid season, 1 took a HC job, 1 guy went to Denver and got himself a ring, another was fired mid season and we are on the 5th now).

In a perfect world, Flacco could have had the same coordinator, a receiver like Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, A.J. Green, Antonio Brown etc. and he could have been in a system with less focus on running the ball (not naming Trestmans offense) which could have been a reason to expect flashy stats or more TD's etc.

The team around him is build to be good enough in all areas to succeed, and helping Flacco could definitely have been a greater focus rather than relying on 4-6 round receivers/tight ends and mid 30'something receivers - but thats the strategy we seem to rely on.

Despite these various factors, some seem keen on providing evidence to support the argument, that Flacco is a bad quarterback which the Ravens should move on from. When Ravens fans try to defend Flacco, we are presented with comparisons and stats which still can't explain, why a number of players doesn't have the results Flacco have. From 2013-2016 the Ravens haven't been very impressive most of the time, and maybe Luck, Tannehill, Hoyer, Cousins could have performed better - or maybe not, as nothing decisively indicate they could.

Then a Raiders fan join the action and points towards Derek Carr as a QB who deserves to be paid more than Flacco, again because of stats, and some random subjective views as better arm talent and elusiveness in the pocket. And the 2 seasons with losses could be attributed to poor players around Carr - while this doesn't seem to apply to Flacco. I just heard a danish podcast, where Carr's 2016 season was described as a season where everything tipped to the right side while being supported with an Amari Cooper and Crabtree and one of the best oline in the game. This is the benchmark we should have for Carr then?

All this, I don't buy into it. Me as well as most Ravens fans know our quarterback is up and down, which is why he is behind more consistent quarterbacks. But we also have the right to claim, that he could prove to be better if he had the talent around him like Roethlisberger has had, that Matt Ryan had this year etc. We don't compare him to Manning in his prime og Brady or Rivers.

Brees down in New Orleans has a schewed team which doesn't help him at all, and while it is far fetched, we could still have the argument, that it is weird they support him the way they do, when he can't do enough with the team around him (what they fielded on defense is pathetic and should have been fixed so long ago. Imo they should have prioritized getting that defense into better shape and let Brees work with what he got from scraps - because I believe he could make it work anyway. With a lesser supporting cast he could still put up 20-something points instead of losing games 37-40).

Can't believe I took my time to write this novelle. As a fellow Ravens fan mentioned, Flacco doesn't deserve this long a thread.
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