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2017 Offseason Thread V. III
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Bonanza23


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickRedux wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
From everything I've read/heard/seen Kessler has looked just OK so far in the camps/OTAs. He still just doesn't have the skillset for what Hue is looking for. He needs to just be our back up or traded to a WCO type team. Osweiler has looked marginally better. Kizer is the only one showing "flashes" of above average QB play. Has his hiccups, but seems extremely willing to learn from them. Has the intelligence and work ethic to straighten them out. Does he have the required ability to read a defense and keep his base when the real bullets start to fly? TBD, aka to be determined.


The opposite is also true though - Kizer has reportedly looked like the worst of the three QBs at times, which shouldn't be discounted considering they weren't even in pads.

I really have to wonder, if the upcoming draft class of QB's weren't looming so heavily over Browns fans, would there still be a push to start Kizer so soon or would we have more patience with developing him first? And if it is the latter option, why the heck are we willing to forego doing what's best for the guy who is currently on the roster?


Sounds like the usual rookie mistakes. On your other point it probably does factor in. But it sounds legitimately like he will overtake these guys and start sometime this year. As I've stated all along I just want the best guy out there. If it so happens to be Kizer, so be it. It would be absolutely awesome if next year we aren't even thinking QB.

But then again if Kizer looks only decent and next year in the draft there is a stud QB sitting at our pick, I wouldn't hesitate to take him.
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Bonanza23


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
BwickRedux wrote:
Bonanza23 wrote:
From everything I've read/heard/seen Kessler has looked just OK so far in the camps/OTAs. He still just doesn't have the skillset for what Hue is looking for. He needs to just be our back up or traded to a WCO type team. Osweiler has looked marginally better. Kizer is the only one showing "flashes" of above average QB play. Has his hiccups, but seems extremely willing to learn from them. Has the intelligence and work ethic to straighten them out. Does he have the required ability to read a defense and keep his base when the real bullets start to fly? TBD, aka to be determined.


The opposite is also true though - Kizer has reportedly looked like the worst of the three QBs at times, which shouldn't be discounted considering they weren't even in pads.

I really have to wonder, if the upcoming draft class of QB's weren't looming so heavily over Browns fans, would there still be a push to start Kizer so soon or would we have more patience with developing him first? And if it is the latter option, why the heck are we willing to forego doing what's best for the guy who is currently on the roster?


He's also a rookie, so I'd hope to hell a 5 year vet and a guy in his second year in the system with many of the same players would look better.

I don't care who starts week one, but I'll be disappointed if Kizer isn't starting at some point.

There's only so much you can learn on the bench, you gotta play at some point.


Yep.org
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BwickRedux


Joined: 22 May 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:


He's also a rookie, so I'd hope to hell a 5 year vet and a guy in his second year in the system with many of the same players would look better.

I don't care who starts week one, but I'll be disappointed if Kizer isn't starting at some point.

There's only so much you can learn on the bench, you gotta play at some point.


Bonanza23 wrote:
Sounds like the usual rookie mistakes. On your other point it probably does factor in. But it sounds legitimately like he will overtake these guys and start sometime this year. As I've stated all along I just want the best guy out there. If it so happens to be Kizer, so be it. It would be absolutely awesome if next year we aren't even thinking QB.

But then again if Kizer looks only decent and next year in the draft there is a stud QB sitting at our pick, I wouldn't hesitate to take him.


1. I have little doubt the veterans will separate themselves more come training camp when things speed up and pads go on. From what Ive heard/read, Kizer made some impressive throws which is why there was talk of him "looking the best" at times and not necessarily because he showed an impressive mastery of the pro-style game. Plus, I do have a "grain of salt" approach when it comes to the Cleveland media... besides Nate Ulrich and Tom Withers, they're basically glorified fans who are as anxious to see Kizer start as average Joe, so their reporting may be a little emotionally skewed.

2. Don't get me wrong here - I also want the best guy to play and think winning games should be the motivation. To your point LGB about having to get-off the bench and play, I'm not someone who believes in a rigid formula for a rookie to sit the whole season or start right away ala trial by fire - he should play when it's best for the team and his development. I just don't want it rushed or feel like the driving factor is solely to see what we have in him for next year's draft. Either he's ready and deserves to play or not - the 2018 draft and players who aren't even on the Browns shouldn't play into that decision in my eyes.
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kelbot


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'll clarify my post: The F/O apparently doesn't quite believe in Kess the way some here do, hence drafting Kizer. Kessler was "not ready to play" last year and looked competent being forced into action.

Based on what we know about Kizer (great physical traits, needs seasoning) playing him instead of Kess in the interest of identifying a franchise QB, and not necessarily in the interest of winning, seems like the best option.


Kessler looked ready to play to me. Yeah, he got hurt and took too many sacks but his sack rate was lower than McCown's and RGIII's so a good bit of that can be put on the line.

If Kessler had enough attempts his yards per attempt (7.2) would have been tied with Jameis Winston for 15th. His completion percentage would have been 10th between Aaron Rodgers and Matthew Stafford. His interception percentage would have been 4th. His TD percentage would have been tied for 25th with Alex Smith and that needs work along with his sack percentage which would have been 3rd worst.

Pretty decent numbers for a rookie. He would have been 15th in rating right behind Russell Wilson. If Kizer puts up numbers that pale in comparison to that as a rookie who should we start in 2018?


Ready to play was put in quotations because he started 3rd on the depth chart with Hue saying he was redshirting him, basically. He got ready, but that was not the plan.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickRedux wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:


He's also a rookie, so I'd hope to hell a 5 year vet and a guy in his second year in the system with many of the same players would look better.

I don't care who starts week one, but I'll be disappointed if Kizer isn't starting at some point.

There's only so much you can learn on the bench, you gotta play at some point.


Bonanza23 wrote:
Sounds like the usual rookie mistakes. On your other point it probably does factor in. But it sounds legitimately like he will overtake these guys and start sometime this year. As I've stated all along I just want the best guy out there. If it so happens to be Kizer, so be it. It would be absolutely awesome if next year we aren't even thinking QB.

But then again if Kizer looks only decent and next year in the draft there is a stud QB sitting at our pick, I wouldn't hesitate to take him.


1. I have little doubt the veterans will separate themselves more come training camp when things speed up and pads go on. From what Ive heard/read, Kizer made some impressive throws which is why there was talk of him "looking the best" at times and not necessarily because he showed an impressive mastery of the pro-style game. Plus, I do have a "grain of salt" approach when it comes to the Cleveland media... besides Nate Ulrich and Tom Withers, they're basically glorified fans who are as anxious to see Kizer start as average Joe, so their reporting may be a little emotionally skewed.

2. Don't get me wrong here - I also want the best guy to play and think winning games should be the motivation. To your point LGB about having to get-off the bench and play, I'm not someone who believes in a rigid formula for a rookie to sit the whole season or start right away ala trial by fire - he should play when it's best for the team and his development. I just don't want it rushed or feel like the driving factor is solely to see what we have in him for next year's draft. Either he's ready and deserves to play or not - the 2018 draft and players who aren't even on the Browns shouldn't play into that decision in my eyes.


I'm with ya on the rookie formula. I believe in most cases good quarterbacks would become good quarterbacks eventually if they didn't start right away or did start right away. They obviously will grow quicker in the starting lineup but from a team prospective I see no problem putting the better QB in, at least in our case. If the coaches can't tell if the QB will be good during camp, preseason and practice it may be time to get new coaches. Ultimately we'll have to see if the rookie can handle game pressure but that is a worry for later in the season if we are eliminated early. If we know he has the tools and intelligence (QB intelligence) then we can wait and see what happens later, no need to panic early.

Then again, I am optimistic about this season and think we can be fighting for the division at the 8 game mark so if others feel that is not possible I could see the other side.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'll clarify my post: The F/O apparently doesn't quite believe in Kess the way some here do, hence drafting Kizer. Kessler was "not ready to play" last year and looked competent being forced into action.

Based on what we know about Kizer (great physical traits, needs seasoning) playing him instead of Kess in the interest of identifying a franchise QB, and not necessarily in the interest of winning, seems like the best option.


Kessler looked ready to play to me. Yeah, he got hurt and took too many sacks but his sack rate was lower than McCown's and RGIII's so a good bit of that can be put on the line.

If Kessler had enough attempts his yards per attempt (7.2) would have been tied with Jameis Winston for 15th. His completion percentage would have been 10th between Aaron Rodgers and Matthew Stafford. His interception percentage would have been 4th. His TD percentage would have been tied for 25th with Alex Smith and that needs work along with his sack percentage which would have been 3rd worst.

Pretty decent numbers for a rookie. He would have been 15th in rating right behind Russell Wilson. If Kizer puts up numbers that pale in comparison to that as a rookie who should we start in 2018?


Ready to play was put in quotations because he started 3rd on the depth chart with Hue saying he was redshirting him, basically. He got ready, but that was not the plan.


Yeah, my bad on that. The staff was wrong about that. They were trying something so I don't blame them for last years depth chart but even without injuries to RGIII/McCown what they were doing wasn't working anyway so Kessler should have been starting at least by mid-season after RGIII sucked for 5 games and McCown for 3.

Same with this year, If we go 0-4 with Osweiler andf Kessler there is no harm in putting the rookie in during an 0-8 season.
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Kiwibrown


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RG3 looked way better than Kessler last year in OTA''s and camp. Big armed guys always do in those situations.

Kessler looked way better than RG3 all of last year.

Weak armed short guys dont look good in practice, never do, never will.

Kesler will be our best feild on Sundays this year.
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BleedTheClock


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not giving up on Brady Quinn.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwibrown wrote:
RG3 looked way better than Kessler last year in OTA''s and camp. Big armed guys always do in those situations.

Kessler looked way better than RG3 all of last year.

Weak armed short guys dont look good in practice, never do, never will.

Kesler will be our best feild on Sundays this year.


I seem to recall that sort of thing having been said specifically about Kessler last year. Didn't show well in practice.
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Kiwibrown


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BleedTheClock wrote:
I'm not giving up on Brady Quinn.


I thought Hof when we got him, i missed that by the largest margin possibly with him being an NFL player.

1st round face body and name. Udfa prospect.

Still hurts.
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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwibrown wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
I'm not giving up on Brady Quinn.


I thought Hof when we got him, i missed that by the largest margin possibly with him being an NFL player.

1st round face body and name. Udfa prospect.

Still hurts.


pre requisite for a hof qb... be able to throw a football. Quinn never could.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Kiwibrown wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
I'm not giving up on Brady Quinn.


I thought Hof when we got him, i missed that by the largest margin possibly with him being an NFL player.

1st round face body and name. Udfa prospect.

Still hurts.


pre requisite for a hof qb... be able to throw a football. Quinn never could.


He was okay in college and he regressed as his arms enlarged.
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MWil23


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just never understood the Brady Quinn love. I did nothing but bash him in college at Notre Dame, where he posted a 58% completion percentage (showed signs of improvement as a junior and senior in college) with a little over a 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio (95 to 39) despite having two of the biggest targets at WR in the nation (Jeff Samardzija and Rhema McKnight) and an offense predicated on using Darius Walker at RB out of the backfield as well.

While he threw 37 TD and 7 INT his senior year and completed over 60% of his passes, he threw 3 INT against Michigan (and only completed 50% of his passes) and 2 vs. LSU (15-35 passing), and was 22-45 in the "Bush Push" game vs. USC.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MWil23 wrote:
I just never understood the Brady Quinn love. I did nothing but bash him in college at Notre Dame, where he posted a 58% completion percentage (showed signs of improvement as a junior and senior in college) with a little over a 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio (95 to 39) despite having two of the biggest targets at WR in the nation (Jeff Samardzija and Rhema McKnight) and an offense predicated on using Darius Walker at RB out of the backfield as well.

While he threw 37 TD and 7 INT his senior year and completed over 60% of his passes, he threw 3 INT against Michigan (and only completed 50% of his passes) and 2 vs. LSU (15-35 passing), and was 22-45 in the "Bush Push" game vs. USC.


Because his name was Brady and he had about the same efficiency as Tom Brady in college. What could go wrong?
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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Kiwibrown wrote:
BleedTheClock wrote:
I'm not giving up on Brady Quinn.


I thought Hof when we got him, i missed that by the largest margin possibly with him being an NFL player.

1st round face body and name. Udfa prospect.

Still hurts.


pre requisite for a hof qb... be able to throw a football. Quinn never could.


He was okay in college and he regressed as his arms enlarged.



I never saw it in college. Even at ND, I saw punters putting a better spin on the ball than Quinn. Heck sometimes it even seemed like placekickers were doing it!
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