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Top 10 Edge Rushers going into '17
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevein2012 wrote:
Isn't JJ Watt primarily an edge rusher?
With both Clowney and Mercilus on the team I think not
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BayRaider


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevein2012 wrote:
Isn't JJ Watt primarily an edge rusher?


He's classified at a 3-4 End. Edge is basically a 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Although no doubts he can play edge.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
SMH at people putting Brandon Graham and Olivier Vernon over Ryan Kerrigan. People fall in love with QB pressure stats as if they are a legit substitute for a sack. Pressures are well and good when added to a high sack production, but I need guys on my team who can actually get to the QB and finish the play consistently, not guys who "almost" finish on a consistent basis - this is especially true when it comes to Graham.

When it comes to Vernon:

Quote:
Olivier Vernon deserves ample praise for being one of the more high-motor, well-conditioned edge defenders in the NFL, leading to his league-leading 93.7 snap percentage, which dwarfs the rest of his colleagues. But the reality is that Vernon needs that high snap count to produce, as he remains one of the more inefficient edges in the NFL. Vernon might be the most interesting pass rusher in the league, as his lack of elite athleticism has forced the defensive end to develop other aspects of his game to maximize his potential. A good number of his sacks are always going to come by way of effort and pursuit rather than natural talent, but playing a ton of snaps has helped keep his production relatively consistent in the 6-8 sack range throughout his career.


Really good article btw: http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-nfl/defense-film-study-nfl/2017/01/09/2016-contextualizing-sack-production-results/

But there is something to be said about playing 93.7 percent of the team's snaps. That shouldn't be counted as a negative. He's out there busting his tail on every play, as is JPP, because the Giants didn't have much depth. Those snaps add up not only over the course of a game, but also the course of the season.
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Stevein2012


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
Stevein2012 wrote:
Isn't JJ Watt primarily an edge rusher?


He's classified at a 3-4 End. Edge is basically a 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Although no doubts he can play edge.


I know what he's classified as but it seems to me like he's most often playing on the edge and going against tackles.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevein2012 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Stevein2012 wrote:
Isn't JJ Watt primarily an edge rusher?


He's classified at a 3-4 End. Edge is basically a 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. Although no doubts he can play edge.


I know what he's classified as but it seems to me like he's most often playing on the edge and going against tackles.


Yeah he does rush from the edge at times and is as good as anyone at it so I'd say he qualifies.
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
SMH at people putting Brandon Graham and Olivier Vernon over Ryan Kerrigan. People fall in love with QB pressure stats as if they are a legit substitute for a sack. Pressures are well and good when added to a high sack production, but I need guys on my team who can actually get to the QB and finish the play consistently, not guys who "almost" finish on a consistent basis - this is especially true when it comes to Graham.

When it comes to Vernon:

Quote:
Olivier Vernon deserves ample praise for being one of the more high-motor, well-conditioned edge defenders in the NFL, leading to his league-leading 93.7 snap percentage, which dwarfs the rest of his colleagues. But the reality is that Vernon needs that high snap count to produce, as he remains one of the more inefficient edges in the NFL. Vernon might be the most interesting pass rusher in the league, as his lack of elite athleticism has forced the defensive end to develop other aspects of his game to maximize his potential. A good number of his sacks are always going to come by way of effort and pursuit rather than natural talent, but playing a ton of snaps has helped keep his production relatively consistent in the 6-8 sack range throughout his career.


Really good article btw: http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-nfl/defense-film-study-nfl/2017/01/09/2016-contextualizing-sack-production-results/

But there is something to be said about playing 93.7 percent of the team's snaps. That shouldn't be counted as a negative. He's out there busting his tail on every play, as is JPP, because the Giants didn't have much depth. Those snaps add up not only over the course of a game, but also the course of the season.


And yet he still doesn't have the sack production of other top guys that play far fewer snaps.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to list outside pass rushers:

1. Von Miller
2. Khalil Mack
3. Justin Houston
4. Cameron Wake
5. JPP
6. Ezekiel Ansah
7. Chandler Jones
8. Ryan Kerrigan
9. Joey Bosa
10. Danielle Hunter
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Gmen wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
SMH at people putting Brandon Graham and Olivier Vernon over Ryan Kerrigan. People fall in love with QB pressure stats as if they are a legit substitute for a sack. Pressures are well and good when added to a high sack production, but I need guys on my team who can actually get to the QB and finish the play consistently, not guys who "almost" finish on a consistent basis - this is especially true when it comes to Graham.

When it comes to Vernon:

Quote:
Olivier Vernon deserves ample praise for being one of the more high-motor, well-conditioned edge defenders in the NFL, leading to his league-leading 93.7 snap percentage, which dwarfs the rest of his colleagues. But the reality is that Vernon needs that high snap count to produce, as he remains one of the more inefficient edges in the NFL. Vernon might be the most interesting pass rusher in the league, as his lack of elite athleticism has forced the defensive end to develop other aspects of his game to maximize his potential. A good number of his sacks are always going to come by way of effort and pursuit rather than natural talent, but playing a ton of snaps has helped keep his production relatively consistent in the 6-8 sack range throughout his career.


Really good article btw: http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-nfl/defense-film-study-nfl/2017/01/09/2016-contextualizing-sack-production-results/

But there is something to be said about playing 93.7 percent of the team's snaps. That shouldn't be counted as a negative. He's out there busting his tail on every play, as is JPP, because the Giants didn't have much depth. Those snaps add up not only over the course of a game, but also the course of the season.


And yet he still doesn't have the sack production of other top guys that play far fewer snaps.

Yea you're still missing the point. I'm saying he could be just as, maybe even more, productive if he played only 70% of the team's snaps. If he's out there using up his energy on a 2nd and short down where it's an obvious run, then he's not going to have as much energy on the next passing down.

Furthermore, it appears the insidethepylon study used all snaps, not just passing downs, which is a massive oversight. If Vernon is out there 93% of the team's snaps, he's playing more run downs than other passrushers. So by default his sacks per snap are going to be lower, because on running downs there are obviously no sacks to be made.

Regardless, Vernon got a well deserved 2nd team all pro for his effort last year. Not to mention he did it with a broken hand.
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I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Gmen wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
SMH at people putting Brandon Graham and Olivier Vernon over Ryan Kerrigan. People fall in love with QB pressure stats as if they are a legit substitute for a sack. Pressures are well and good when added to a high sack production, but I need guys on my team who can actually get to the QB and finish the play consistently, not guys who "almost" finish on a consistent basis - this is especially true when it comes to Graham.

When it comes to Vernon:

Quote:
Olivier Vernon deserves ample praise for being one of the more high-motor, well-conditioned edge defenders in the NFL, leading to his league-leading 93.7 snap percentage, which dwarfs the rest of his colleagues. But the reality is that Vernon needs that high snap count to produce, as he remains one of the more inefficient edges in the NFL. Vernon might be the most interesting pass rusher in the league, as his lack of elite athleticism has forced the defensive end to develop other aspects of his game to maximize his potential. A good number of his sacks are always going to come by way of effort and pursuit rather than natural talent, but playing a ton of snaps has helped keep his production relatively consistent in the 6-8 sack range throughout his career.


Really good article btw: http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-nfl/defense-film-study-nfl/2017/01/09/2016-contextualizing-sack-production-results/

But there is something to be said about playing 93.7 percent of the team's snaps. That shouldn't be counted as a negative. He's out there busting his tail on every play, as is JPP, because the Giants didn't have much depth. Those snaps add up not only over the course of a game, but also the course of the season.


And yet he still doesn't have the sack production of other top guys that play far fewer snaps.

Yea you're still missing the point. I'm saying he could be just as, maybe even more, productive if he played only 70% of the team's snaps. If he's out there using up his energy on a 2nd and short down where it's an obvious run, then he's not going to have as much energy on the next passing down.

Furthermore, it appears the insidethepylon study used all snaps, not just passing downs, which is a massive oversight. If Vernon is out there 93% of the team's snaps, he's playing more run downs than other passrushers. So by default his sacks per snap are going to be lower, because on running downs there are obviously no sacks to be made.

Regardless, Vernon got a well deserved 2nd team all pro for his effort last year. Not to mention he did it with a broken hand.


Half of the 8 sacks he got were only coverage/clean up sacks. That is pretty telling regarding how good he actually is (or isn't) at creating sacks for himself.

You're right that pass rush snaps should have been used instead. But just because he played a higher snap count doesn't necessarily translate into him being on the field much more against the run than other guys. For example, I know for a fact Kerrigan was rotated in with Preston Smith and Trent Murphy throughout the season regardless of if it was a passing down or rushing down. They didn't just save Kerrigan for 3rd down or 2nd and long snaps. Especially since Kerrigan is our best EDGE run defender. Yes, Vernon might have the excuse of being more tired than other rushers on 3rd downs, but he also had far more opportunities to rack up stats than others, regardless of how tired he may have been. And considering how good his conditioning has been made out to be, I'm not sure I buy that he was constantly tired out there when going after the passer, especially since half of his sacks appeared to be effort sacks. Bottom line is that Kerrigan was out there on the field less - on both run downs and passing downs -, yet he still was able to rack up over twice as many high quality sacks as Vernon.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to being named 2nd team All-pro, he was rated as the most productive RDE in the league in 2016 by Profootballfocus.

http://giantswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/30/new-york-giants-olivier-vernon-most-productive-right-end-2016/

Quote:
Pro Football Focus has plenty of signature stats and one of them is “pass rush productivity.” In the tweet, pass rush productivity is described as a “rating that measures pressure created on a per snap basis with weighting toward sacks.”


Somebody is wrong, and I'm sorry but i'm not going to give insidethepylon the benefit of the doubt.
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scar988 wrote:
I'm of the belief the best QB in NY right now (July 2017) is Geno Smith.

SMH
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
In addition to being named 2nd team All-pro, he was rated as the most productive RDE in the league in 2016 by Profootballfocus.

http://giantswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/30/new-york-giants-olivier-vernon-most-productive-right-end-2016/

Quote:
Pro Football Focus has plenty of signature stats and one of them is “pass rush productivity.” In the tweet, pass rush productivity is described as a “rating that measures pressure created on a per snap basis with weighting toward sacks.”


Somebody is wrong, and I'm sorry but i'm not going to give insidethepylon the benefit of the doubt.


No one is "wrong". Laughing

Like I said before, some people are giving as much weight to total pressures as they give to sacks nowadays, which is ridiculous. Finishing matters.

PFF does give more weight to sacks in the link you posted, but I don't know how much. I know they love their overall pressure stats, so I don't expect it to be much. Also, neither PFF nor the Associated Press distinguish between high and low quality sacks.

Not to mention, there aren't exactly a plethora of great RDE's out there, and that link you posted only measures snaps taken exclusively from the right side. That's a very specific ranking I'm not sure holds much weight. The rest of that list was Robert Ayers, Frank Clark, Dwight Freeney, and Everson Griffen.

If you really wanna use PFF pressure stats though, here are Kerrigan's for the OLB position:

Since 2014, he has accumulated 203 total pressures. Von Miller and Khalil Mack are the only outside linebackers to create more.



In 2016, he ranked fourth in pass-rush productivity and racked up 72 total pressures, ranking him third among his peers.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Gmen wrote:
In addition to being named 2nd team All-pro, he was rated as the most productive RDE in the league in 2016 by Profootballfocus.

http://giantswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/30/new-york-giants-olivier-vernon-most-productive-right-end-2016/

Quote:
Pro Football Focus has plenty of signature stats and one of them is “pass rush productivity.” In the tweet, pass rush productivity is described as a “rating that measures pressure created on a per snap basis with weighting toward sacks.”


Somebody is wrong, and I'm sorry but i'm not going to give insidethepylon the benefit of the doubt.


No one is "wrong". Laughing

Like I said before, some people are giving as much weight to total pressures as they give to sacks nowadays, which is ridiculous. Finishing matters.

PFF does give more weight to sacks in the link you posted, but I don't know how much. I know they love their overall pressure stats, so I don't expect it to be much. Also, neither PFF nor the Associated Press distinguish between high and low quality sacks.

Not to mention, there aren't exactly a plethora of great RDE's out there, and that link you posted only measures snaps taken exclusively from the right side. That's a very specific ranking I'm not sure holds much weight. The rest of that list was Robert Ayers, Frank Clark, Dwight Freeney, and Everson Griffen.

If you really wanna use PFF pressure stats though, here are Kerrigan's for the OLB position:

Since 2014, he has accumulated 203 total pressures. Von Miller and Khalil Mack are the only outside linebackers to create more.



In 2016, he ranked fourth in pass-rush productivity and racked up 72 total pressures, ranking him third among his peers.


Pressures can be just as valuable as sacks. A pressure can result in an INT. A sack cannot (although it can produce a fumble).
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HTTRG3Dynasty


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason_Bengal_Fl wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Gmen wrote:
In addition to being named 2nd team All-pro, he was rated as the most productive RDE in the league in 2016 by Profootballfocus.

http://giantswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/30/new-york-giants-olivier-vernon-most-productive-right-end-2016/

Quote:
Pro Football Focus has plenty of signature stats and one of them is “pass rush productivity.” In the tweet, pass rush productivity is described as a “rating that measures pressure created on a per snap basis with weighting toward sacks.”


Somebody is wrong, and I'm sorry but i'm not going to give insidethepylon the benefit of the doubt.


No one is "wrong". Laughing

Like I said before, some people are giving as much weight to total pressures as they give to sacks nowadays, which is ridiculous. Finishing matters.

PFF does give more weight to sacks in the link you posted, but I don't know how much. I know they love their overall pressure stats, so I don't expect it to be much. Also, neither PFF nor the Associated Press distinguish between high and low quality sacks.

Not to mention, there aren't exactly a plethora of great RDE's out there, and that link you posted only measures snaps taken exclusively from the right side. That's a very specific ranking I'm not sure holds much weight. The rest of that list was Robert Ayers, Frank Clark, Dwight Freeney, and Everson Griffen.

If you really wanna use PFF pressure stats though, here are Kerrigan's for the OLB position:

Since 2014, he has accumulated 203 total pressures. Von Miller and Khalil Mack are the only outside linebackers to create more.



In 2016, he ranked fourth in pass-rush productivity and racked up 72 total pressures, ranking him third among his peers.


Pressures can be just as valuable as sacks. A pressure can result in an INT. A sack cannot (although it can produce a fumble).


Yes, but realistically, most pressures do not result in INTs. Sacks are more valuable than the vast majority of pressures.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason_Bengal_Fl wrote:
HTTRG3Dynasty wrote:
Gmen wrote:
In addition to being named 2nd team All-pro, he was rated as the most productive RDE in the league in 2016 by Profootballfocus.

http://giantswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/30/new-york-giants-olivier-vernon-most-productive-right-end-2016/

Quote:
Pro Football Focus has plenty of signature stats and one of them is “pass rush productivity.” In the tweet, pass rush productivity is described as a “rating that measures pressure created on a per snap basis with weighting toward sacks.”


Somebody is wrong, and I'm sorry but i'm not going to give insidethepylon the benefit of the doubt.


No one is "wrong". Laughing

Like I said before, some people are giving as much weight to total pressures as they give to sacks nowadays, which is ridiculous. Finishing matters.

PFF does give more weight to sacks in the link you posted, but I don't know how much. I know they love their overall pressure stats, so I don't expect it to be much. Also, neither PFF nor the Associated Press distinguish between high and low quality sacks.

Not to mention, there aren't exactly a plethora of great RDE's out there, and that link you posted only measures snaps taken exclusively from the right side. That's a very specific ranking I'm not sure holds much weight. The rest of that list was Robert Ayers, Frank Clark, Dwight Freeney, and Everson Griffen.

If you really wanna use PFF pressure stats though, here are Kerrigan's for the OLB position:

Since 2014, he has accumulated 203 total pressures. Von Miller and Khalil Mack are the only outside linebackers to create more.



In 2016, he ranked fourth in pass-rush productivity and racked up 72 total pressures, ranking him third among his peers.


Pressures can be just as valuable as sacks. A pressure can result in an INT. A sack cannot (although it can produce a fumble).


If your team's on defense, 2 seconds after the ball is snapped on a passing play, are you praying for a sack or a pressure? If the QB escapes the DE grabbing his jersey, are you thinking "thank god, now we might have a pick?"

Obviously pressures are valuable and often yield positive outcomes - but sacks are better. From a strictly production standpoint, I wouldn't put a guy with low sack totals and high pressures above a guy who has high sack totals and slightly less pressures.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Underselling snap count is very silly. Secondly Vernon, unlike Kerrigan, goes up against the best Tackle pretty much the majority of the snaps. He's a disruptive player. Pressures, sacks, hits, it doesn't matter. 71.6 compared to 93.6 is huge. There is a point of diminishing returns.
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