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2017 Offseason Thread V. III
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pnies20


Joined: 19 Dec 2007
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Location: Nashville through Erie, PA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather win as many games as possible so our coaches don't get fired.
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Certainly smacks of a bias in favor of Kizer.

I'll take the 6.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Yeah, If it was McCown or Hoyer behind the rookie I'd get it, play for the future. Kessler is 24 though if we can win with him we'd still have a decade plus to go. Osweiler is only 26.
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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. None of these guys are established. All are young. The competition should be fierce and should be welcomed by all. If they don't want competition then they don't belong on the roster. Let the gladiators battle and the strongest prevail.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Exactly. None of these guys are established. All are young. The competition should be fierce and should be welcomed by all. If they don't want competition then they don't belong on the roster. Let the gladiators battle and the strongest prevail.


Yeah every fan wants the best player to win the job the debate is who each of us think that best player is, at least at the moment. I think it is easily Kessler if he can just improve slightly from his rookie season which seems like a conservative expectation.

If they can fix whatever is wrong with Osweiler and he is the best option then we all want him to start.

Same with Kizer, may the best QB win.

...which is Kessler btw Laughing
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the most emotionless assessment I have read, with which I agree, btw.

http://dawgpounddaily.com/2017/06/16/cleveland-browns-deshone-kizer-starter/
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Yeah, If it was McCown or Hoyer behind the rookie I'd get it, play for the future. Kessler is 24 though if we can win with him we'd still have a decade plus to go. Osweiler is only 26.


If we would win 4 with Kizer but could have won 6 with another QB that would be an awful message to be sending to the team; i.e., we are not playing the QB who gives us the best chance to win.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Yeah, If it was McCown or Hoyer behind the rookie I'd get it, play for the future. Kessler is 24 though if we can win with him we'd still have a decade plus to go. Osweiler is only 26.


If we would win 4 with Kizer but could have won 6 with another QB that would be an awful message to be sending to the team; i.e., we are not playing the QB who gives us the best chance to win.


Depends on the situation though, in our situation you are correct. If we are grooming a QB in a probable throw away year to get him experience for future gains over an old vet who would currently likely be a little better but is already maxed out at below average it would make sense. Whatever is best for the organization is the route they should go, with this group of quarterbacks I'd say just go with who gives you the best chance to win because they are all pretty green and young.
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buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Yeah, If it was McCown or Hoyer behind the rookie I'd get it, play for the future. Kessler is 24 though if we can win with him we'd still have a decade plus to go. Osweiler is only 26.


If we would win 4 with Kizer but could have won 6 with another QB that would be an awful message to be sending to the team; i.e., we are not playing the QB who gives us the best chance to win.


What about this, would you want to win 4 games this year with kizer and it leads to 7wins the following year with him. Or win 6games this year with Kessler/Brock and it leads to 6wins the following year. I understand the point he was making. Who really has a better future for he browns
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kelbot


Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Certainly smacks of a bias in favor of Kizer.

I'll take the 6.


Yes, I'm biased towards the guy with the superior physical skills. I like Kessler, I just don't see it. He couldn't finish half the games he started (Baltimore Thursday night was Hue's fault).

Also, what does 6 wins get us that 4 doesn't except for a lower pick?
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MWil23


Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Not to me. You get a whole season to evaluate Kizer and figure out whether or not he's a viable Franchise QB.

If he isn't, you draft one HIGH this year in 2018.

If we win 6 games this year with Kessler as our QB, and go into 2018 with a question mark at QB in "do we go with Kizer or draft a Franchise QB high in Round 1", our FO and HC aren't in any better of a position in terms of job security than they would be if we won 4 with Kizer this year.
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BwickRedux


Joined: 22 May 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kelbot wrote:
bruceb wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Certainly smacks of a bias in favor of Kizer.

I'll take the 6.


Yes, I'm biased towards the guy with the superior physical skills. I like Kessler, I just don't see it. He couldn't finish half the games he started (Baltimore Thursday night was Hue's fault).

Also, what does 6 wins get us that 4 doesn't except for a lower pick?


Saying you don't see it vs. saying you'd rather win 4 games with Kizer over 6 with Kessler aren't the same though. I agree that Kizer has the better physical traits - without a doubt - but there are still enough variables at play that could indicate Kessler winning 6 games given a full season against Kizer's 4 would mean Cody was the better QB.

I kinda just think you framed your initial point in a poor way - I get that you're saying there may be advantages to taking lumps now with Kizer but quantifying it and asking if we'd rather lose more games seems to detract from that discussion, especially when the other options aren't McCown or Delhomme, but young QBs with ceilings of their own that still may be unseen.

Give me a plan that allows the team to win the most games while getting a good idea of what they have in each of their QBs by next offseason and I'm happy.
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BwickRedux


Joined: 22 May 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MWil23 wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Not to me. You get a whole season to evaluate Kizer and figure out whether or not he's a viable Franchise QB.

If he isn't, you draft one HIGH this year in 2018.

If we win 6 games this year with Kessler as our QB, and go into 2018 with a question mark at QB in "do we go with Kizer or draft a Franchise QB high in Round 1", our FO and HC aren't in any better of a position in terms of job security than they would be if we won 4 with Kizer this year.



Here's what I don't understand: has everyone basically set the ceiling on Kessler as a 5-6 win QB? We're talking about him like he's Josh McCown and a known quantity, but he really isn't. What if he wins 6 games but puts the Browns in position to win 2 or 3 more? Are we still lamenting we didn't play Kizer for his 4 wins? I just feel like every February and March, we as Browns fans try to be altruistic and preach patience with young QBs we're hoping we draft because, in theory, we know that's best... but this discussion shows we're already basically ready to right-off Kessler and figure out what we have with Kizer, and if Kizer only wins four games, then we should move on from both even though combined between the two, they'll only have 3 years of experience.
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MWil23


Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickRedux wrote:
MWil23 wrote:
pnies20 wrote:
kelbot wrote:
I'd rather win 4 games with Kizer than 6 with Kess or Brock....


That's crazy to me.


Not to me. You get a whole season to evaluate Kizer and figure out whether or not he's a viable Franchise QB.

If he isn't, you draft one HIGH this year in 2018.

If we win 6 games this year with Kessler as our QB, and go into 2018 with a question mark at QB in "do we go with Kizer or draft a Franchise QB high in Round 1", our FO and HC aren't in any better of a position in terms of job security than they would be if we won 4 with Kizer this year.



Here's what I don't understand: has everyone basically set the ceiling on Kessler as a 5-6 win QB? We're talking about him like he's Josh McCown and a known quantity, but he really isn't. What if he wins 6 games but puts the Browns in position to win 2 or 3 more? Are we still lamenting we didn't play Kizer for his 4 wins? I just feel like every February and March, we as Browns fans try to be altruistic and preach patience with young QBs we're hoping we draft because, in theory, we know that's best... but this discussion shows we're already basically ready to right-off Kessler and figure out what we have with Kizer, and if Kizer only wins four games, then we should move on from both even though combined between the two, they'll only have 3 years of experience.


You're not wrong, but my response and rationale above is based upon the completely hypothetical situation in which we would go 6-10 with Kessler at QB.

That's all the information we were given.

We weren't given information that he gave us a shot to win 2 more games, or that he lit the league on fire, what his TD/INT ratio, completion %, yardage stats, how many games he was healthy, etc.

If CK goes out there and puts up some type of 25/10, 3,500 yards, and 62% statline with a 6-10 record while starting 16 games/staying healthy/not getting a crazy amount of concussions, and putting us in contention to win 2-4 more games based upon his exceptional play, then that's a completely different scenario.
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