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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
Posts: 995
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.
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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
Posts: 995
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.


Well, we don't have the luxury of having a Joe Montana for him to sit behind. I am not advocating letting him sit for 4 years, I am advocating giving him a chance.

The argument about letting a player sit and develop, is about Kizer, not Brock. Kizer definitely needs to sit, at least one full year. He is a big time project and won't be ready this year, maybe not even next.

Regarding Brock not being Steve Young, of course he is not, he is also not Joe Flacco, he is Brock Osweiler, and what I am saying, is give him a chance to see exactly what kind of player that he can be. He has potential to be so much better than Joe Flacco. The question is, can he realize that potential. That is our staff's task, to find out, rather than just blindly write him off as Tampa Bay did with Young.... as Houston did with Osweiler. I would rather be on the 49ers end of the Steve Young situation than the Bucs side of it.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: West Virginia Occupation: Browns LT
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.


Well, we don't have the luxury of having a Joe Montana for him to sit behind. I am not advocating letting him sit for 4 years, I am advocating giving him a chance.

The argument about letting a player sit and develop, is about Kizer, not Brock. Kizer definitely needs to sit, at least one full year. He is a big time project and won't be ready this year, maybe not even next.

Regarding Brock not being Steve Young, of course he is not, he is also not Joe Flacco, he is Brock Osweiler, and what I am saying, is give him a chance to see exactly what kind of player that he can be. He has potential to be so much better than Joe Flacco. The question is, can he realize that potential. That is our staff's task, to find out, rather than just blindly write him off as Tampa Bay did with Young.... as Houston did with Osweiler. I would rather be on the 49ers end of the Steve Young situation than the Bucs side of it.


I'd love for Brock to be good but it looks very unlikely to happen at this point. I'd rather spend that time seeing Kessler and Kizer get reps to see what they can become. Osweiler's story isn't over but he looks like a big arm QB who doesn't utilize his only positive attribute. Kessler threw for more air yards than Osweiler did last year (and more than Osweiler did in 2015 as well), no way that should happen. Kessler is your traditional west coast QB and Osweiler is your typical downfield passing QB in terms of arm strength. Osweiler is completing less than 60% of his passes and Kessler is at 65.6% while also throwing for more air yards per attempt I just don't see what upside Osweiler has compared to Kessler. A stronger arm? Sure, but it doesn't help if you can't or won't utilize it. You just become Derek Anderson who has one positive attribute but won't utilize it, partly because the opposing team knows what it is and tries to take it away but if you can't adjust you are just a back up QB in this league and that looks like what Brock has become.
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NudeTayne


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.


Well, we don't have the luxury of having a Joe Montana for him to sit behind. I am not advocating letting him sit for 4 years, I am advocating giving him a chance.

The argument about letting a player sit and develop, is about Kizer, not Brock. Kizer definitely needs to sit, at least one full year. He is a big time project and won't be ready this year, maybe not even next.

Regarding Brock not being Steve Young, of course he is not, he is also not Joe Flacco, he is Brock Osweiler, and what I am saying, is give him a chance to see exactly what kind of player that he can be. He has potential to be so much better than Joe Flacco. The question is, can he realize that potential. That is our staff's task, to find out, rather than just blindly write him off as Tampa Bay did with Young.... as Houston did with Osweiler. I would rather be on the 49ers end of the Steve Young situation than the Bucs side of it.


I'd love for Brock to be good but it looks very unlikely to happen at this point. I'd rather spend that time seeing Kessler and Kizer get reps to see what they can become. Osweiler's story isn't over but he looks like a big arm QB who doesn't utilize his only positive attribute. Kessler threw for more air yards than Osweiler did last year (and more than Osweiler did in 2015 as well), no way that should happen. Kessler is your traditional west coast QB and Osweiler is your typical downfield passing QB in terms of arm strength. Osweiler is completing less than 60% of his passes and Kessler is at 65.6% while also throwing for more air yards per attempt I just don't see what upside Osweiler has compared to Kessler. A stronger arm? Sure, but it doesn't help if you can't or won't utilize it. You just become Derek Anderson who has one positive attribute but won't utilize it, partly because the opposing team knows what it is and tries to take it away but if you can't adjust you are just a back up QB in this league and that looks like what Brock has become.


Great post, Thomas. You succinctly assembled all the main points as to why Kessler is so much more as a prospect right now. That and he's making pennies for the next three seasons while Osweiler will almost for sure be a free agent after this season unless a major restructuring occurs (wherever he ends up, Cleveland or otherwise).

That said, part of me hopes Dizzy's right; the guy is due a win.
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DizzyDean


Joined: 09 Mar 2017
Posts: 995
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.


Well, we don't have the luxury of having a Joe Montana for him to sit behind. I am not advocating letting him sit for 4 years, I am advocating giving him a chance.

The argument about letting a player sit and develop, is about Kizer, not Brock. Kizer definitely needs to sit, at least one full year. He is a big time project and won't be ready this year, maybe not even next.

Regarding Brock not being Steve Young, of course he is not, he is also not Joe Flacco, he is Brock Osweiler, and what I am saying, is give him a chance to see exactly what kind of player that he can be. He has potential to be so much better than Joe Flacco. The question is, can he realize that potential. That is our staff's task, to find out, rather than just blindly write him off as Tampa Bay did with Young.... as Houston did with Osweiler. I would rather be on the 49ers end of the Steve Young situation than the Bucs side of it.


I'd love for Brock to be good but it looks very unlikely to happen at this point. I'd rather spend that time seeing Kessler and Kizer get reps to see what they can become. Osweiler's story isn't over but he looks like a big arm QB who doesn't utilize his only positive attribute. Kessler threw for more air yards than Osweiler did last year (and more than Osweiler did in 2015 as well), no way that should happen. Kessler is your traditional west coast QB and Osweiler is your typical downfield passing QB in terms of arm strength. Osweiler is completing less than 60% of his passes and Kessler is at 65.6% while also throwing for more air yards per attempt I just don't see what upside Osweiler has compared to Kessler. A stronger arm? Sure, but it doesn't help if you can't or won't utilize it. You just become Derek Anderson who has one positive attribute but won't utilize it, partly because the opposing team knows what it is and tries to take it away but if you can't adjust you are just a back up QB in this league and that looks like what Brock has become.


I simply don't agree with most of this, I root for all guys and I love Kessler. That said, Osweiler obviously has the stronger arm, he is more athletic, more durable, definitely has more ideal size, and his accuracy is above average (as is Kesslers), only Osweiler can be accurate down field.

Regarding unlikely, maybe, but the same can be said for all QBs on the Browns roster at this point. That is why you have an open competition, and may the best man win.
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Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.


Well, we don't have the luxury of having a Joe Montana for him to sit behind. I am not advocating letting him sit for 4 years, I am advocating giving him a chance.

The argument about letting a player sit and develop, is about Kizer, not Brock. Kizer definitely needs to sit, at least one full year. He is a big time project and won't be ready this year, maybe not even next.

Regarding Brock not being Steve Young, of course he is not, he is also not Joe Flacco, he is Brock Osweiler, and what I am saying, is give him a chance to see exactly what kind of player that he can be. He has potential to be so much better than Joe Flacco. The question is, can he realize that potential. That is our staff's task, to find out, rather than just blindly write him off as Tampa Bay did with Young.... as Houston did with Osweiler. I would rather be on the 49ers end of the Steve Young situation than the Bucs side of it.


I'd love for Brock to be good but it looks very unlikely to happen at this point. I'd rather spend that time seeing Kessler and Kizer get reps to see what they can become. Osweiler's story isn't over but he looks like a big arm QB who doesn't utilize his only positive attribute. Kessler threw for more air yards than Osweiler did last year (and more than Osweiler did in 2015 as well), no way that should happen. Kessler is your traditional west coast QB and Osweiler is your typical downfield passing QB in terms of arm strength. Osweiler is completing less than 60% of his passes and Kessler is at 65.6% while also throwing for more air yards per attempt I just don't see what upside Osweiler has compared to Kessler. A stronger arm? Sure, but it doesn't help if you can't or won't utilize it. You just become Derek Anderson who has one positive attribute but won't utilize it, partly because the opposing team knows what it is and tries to take it away but if you can't adjust you are just a back up QB in this league and that looks like what Brock has become.


I simply don't agree with most of this, I root for all guys and I love Kessler. That said, Osweiler obviously has the stronger arm, he is more athletic, more durable, definitely has more ideal size, and his accuracy is above average (as is Kesslers), only Osweiler can be accurate down field.

Regarding unlikely, maybe, but the same can be said for all QBs on the Browns roster at this point. That is why you have an open competition, and may the best man win.


Osweiler's athletic ability isn't really any better than Kessler's. He does have a stronger arm and better size but Kessler has much larger hands and that is the most important attribute for a QB Very Happy

Osweiler was by far the worst passer in 2015 on passes beyond 15 yards https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/45x0m3/2015_qb_stats_broken_down_by_passes_less_than_and/. Last year Osweiler was last in accuracy from 16+ and 20+ throws Kessler was 18th and 23rd, not great but better than dead last. https://brickwallblitz.wordpress.com/category/deep-ball-project/

As far as passing breakdowns for last year football outsiders did have Osweiler better than his actual stats showed finishing 26th instead of 31st although Kessler finished 11th. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/2016-passing-plus-minus

Brock could possibly still be good but he hasn't been yet. After 5 years you have to start believing he is who he has shown he is and probably won't turn into a franchise guy.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
DizzyDean wrote:


How is that for some research and something to sink your teeth into?


Who is to say he didn't improve because of playing time and learning on the field? He had a much better rating in 1986 than Steve DeBerg did with the Bucs. That was a pathetic team and the tape shows he played much better than the stats.

From my memory the majority of people seemed to want Bono to take over for Montana instead of Young, I wasn't one of them. I don't recall hearing anyone complain about what was given up for him.


Oh, you mean he played much better than the stat line showed for TB back then.... funny, I have heard it said many times (mainly by myself) that Osweiler played much better than the stat line showed for Houston last year. Smile

Oh, and I am to say he didn't improve by learning and playing on the field. The real improvement didn't come until the 4 years of sparse playing time while sitting behind Montana, which was the point that I was making.

Fine, lets let Brock sit for 4 years and see what happens.


Younge did well during that sparse playing time throwing 23 TD and 6 INT. Better than his career averages. Meanwhile the Tampa QBs had ratings of 63, 72, 59 and 66 in those years.

Anyway, Brock isn't Steve Young he just doesn't have those abilities. He could be Joe Flacco, a decent starter but nothing to write home about aside from the one playoff run.


Well, we don't have the luxury of having a Joe Montana for him to sit behind. I am not advocating letting him sit for 4 years, I am advocating giving him a chance.

The argument about letting a player sit and develop, is about Kizer, not Brock. Kizer definitely needs to sit, at least one full year. He is a big time project and won't be ready this year, maybe not even next.

Regarding Brock not being Steve Young, of course he is not, he is also not Joe Flacco, he is Brock Osweiler, and what I am saying, is give him a chance to see exactly what kind of player that he can be. He has potential to be so much better than Joe Flacco. The question is, can he realize that potential. That is our staff's task, to find out, rather than just blindly write him off as Tampa Bay did with Young.... as Houston did with Osweiler. I would rather be on the 49ers end of the Steve Young situation than the Bucs side of it.


Blindly write him off????????? He has started for 2 decent franchises in the NFL and been found to be wanting in ability. He simply lacks the intangibles and mental toughness so necessary to ever be given another shot at starting. Sure, if Kessler and Kizer both go down with injuries, he will see the field, but in reality, the Browns will cut this guy as soon as his guaranteed contract runs out and nobody will touch him at the salary he commands.

Your trying to ride a dead horse, he has nowhere near the ability you are giving him and he lacks the basic intangibles and mental toughness to be a starting NFL QB. This is nothing like the Steve Young situation in Tampa.

You could sit this guy for 4,5 or even 10 years and he is never going to develop the intangibles like leadership ability or mental toughness so necessary for success as a NFL starting QB. Those are areas where you either have it or you don't and he does not come close to having them.
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