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There Is No Substantive Difference Btwn Kizer & Wentz
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NateDawg


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kizer eval and comparison is about lenient, as compared to Wentz. If we are talking from a strictly ripping and throwing standpoint, I'd agree. He has the tools and physical makeup. As far as processing a defense and being NFL ready, no. Kizer's best chance would honestly be sitting 1-2 seasons and refining his techniques, learning an NFL offense, and not being rushed on to the field. Unfortunately, that's likely not a situation that the Browns are in with him, unless this team is really winning some games this year. If we're losing and in line for a high pick in '18, they will need to see what Kizer can do, so they have some idea of which route to go in the draft. I think there's a sizeable gap between these two guys as it concerns rookie readiness though. Kizer has a higher ceiling but a lower floor than Wentz. It's all about how he develops.
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Jlash


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: hmmm Reply with quote

Mastercheddaar wrote:
If we sit back and let Kizer learn he could be better. Wentz was going to be Philly's starter. Everyone knew it. If we do the same to Kizer I think it would be a disaster.

that is all

Mastercheddaar


Not until Teddy Bridgewater went down 8 days before the season. Until then Carson was set to be the gameday inactive QB behind Bradford and Daniel.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
IMO, Wentz is a way better prospect than Kizer. Kizer stunk it up his last season, playing behind 2 OLmen who will be 1st round selects this season.


Just because they are future 1st rd picks or show the potential to be future 1st rd poicks, doenst mean they were playing to that level.

tOSU had some future 1st rd picks on the offensive line last year and that OL didnt play all that great.

Iamcanadian wrote:

In Kizer, I just do not see the mental toughness so necessary for a successful NFL QB and that is why the Combine dropped him down to a round 2 QB. When you start making excuses for failure for a QB, you have to ask yourself, do you get what you see or could he develop and in KIzer, I believe the former is what you get.

How does he lack mental toughness? Did you not see what happen last year. He had a head coach who would never take accountability for the team losing or on any of the coaching. He always deflected the issues to his players. Heck even when the media wanted a soundbite of Kizer redirecting the issues back to the coaching, he never did, heck he accepted the blame/faults and told people he had to do better. A lot of the issues with Notre Dame last year wasnt because of poor QB play. There were a lot of issues. No real running game to utilize like the prior year, no big time threat WR like the prior year, Defense was god awful. Kelly never owned up saying he needed to coach better or he needs to better develop/prepare his players. You look at Kizer and you see him taking on accountability of everyones actions and blaming himself. Hell I want to say that there are quotes or sound bites saying its his fault that guys arent playing motivated or with engery and that he says he needs to be in the huddle, speaking with more enthusiasm and bring even more enegry so the guys will feed off of him. The way he handled a disappointed season, the behavior of kelly, and dealing with his gf having cancer/tumor. I think this guy is pretty damn mentally tough. You also look at the '15 season and you see him making some of those clutch throws and drives. He was mentally tough to not crumble during some big games last year and some this year

Iamcanadian wrote:

Wentz has it all, arm strength and mental toughness, very strong leadership qualities and all the intangibles you could ever want.

I pray Kizer proves me wrong and develops, but I am not holding my breath expecting it.

You look at Wentz, he was in a damn comfy situation at NDSU. A situation when the starting QB goes down and the back up QB for the next 7-8 games or something like that is able to come in and lead the team to the title game. NDSU is the best program in 1-A. No matter what, NDSU was going to be the superior player at just about every position. Notre Dame, not so much. Kizer had to go through a lot more adversity at ND.

I think both of them have the arm strength, mental toughness, strong leadership qualities and all the intangibles.

The only edge I really give to Kizer is he has seen more NFL talent when he played in college. Has better collegiate experience because he was at a big time program, facing big time programs.


Sorry, but he had a whole post season to show and impress scouts, GM's and HC's about his overall talent and mental toughness and all he accomplished is to fall to round 2, when early in the process, he was viewed as a 1st round talent.

Kizer just kept going backwards in scouts and GM's estimations while the prospects he was being compared to, just kept moving up in the draft rankings and most of them were flawed.

IMO, Kizer will be a career backup and not much more.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NateDawg wrote:
The Kizer eval and comparison is about lenient, as compared to Wentz. If we are talking from a strictly ripping and throwing standpoint, I'd agree. He has the tools and physical makeup. As far as processing a defense and being NFL ready, no. Kizer's best chance would honestly be sitting 1-2 seasons and refining his techniques, learning an NFL offense, and not being rushed on to the field. Unfortunately, that's likely not a situation that the Browns are in with him, unless this team is really winning some games this year. If we're losing and in line for a high pick in '18, they will need to see what Kizer can do, so they have some idea of which route to go in the draft. I think there's a sizeable gap between these two guys as it concerns rookie readiness though. Kizer has a higher ceiling but a lower floor than Wentz. It's all about how he develops.


I agree with everything you said till you got to the point that "Kizer has the higher ceiling, but a lower floor than Wentz".

Wentz came from a very small football conference where he rarely played against top notch competition. His ceiling is off the charts, that is the reason he went #2 overall in the draft. Kizer dropped like a piece of lead, because teams viewed his ceiling as mediocre. The draft is all about ceiling and you do not go #2 overall unless scouts and GM's view your ceiling as right up there. You go round 2 when they have grave doubts about your ceiling.

Why people think Kizer has a solid shot to be a franchise QB is beyond me? It looks a little unrealistic, when less than 6% of round 2 or later drafted QB's ever succeed. Those are pretty rotten odds IMO.

I am not saying it is impossible, because 6% do make it, but it is a huge longshot at best.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
buno67 wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
IMO, Wentz is a way better prospect than Kizer. Kizer stunk it up his last season, playing behind 2 OLmen who will be 1st round selects this season.


Just because they are future 1st rd picks or show the potential to be future 1st rd poicks, doenst mean they were playing to that level.

tOSU had some future 1st rd picks on the offensive line last year and that OL didnt play all that great.

Iamcanadian wrote:

In Kizer, I just do not see the mental toughness so necessary for a successful NFL QB and that is why the Combine dropped him down to a round 2 QB. When you start making excuses for failure for a QB, you have to ask yourself, do you get what you see or could he develop and in KIzer, I believe the former is what you get.

How does he lack mental toughness? Did you not see what happen last year. He had a head coach who would never take accountability for the team losing or on any of the coaching. He always deflected the issues to his players. Heck even when the media wanted a soundbite of Kizer redirecting the issues back to the coaching, he never did, heck he accepted the blame/faults and told people he had to do better. A lot of the issues with Notre Dame last year wasnt because of poor QB play. There were a lot of issues. No real running game to utilize like the prior year, no big time threat WR like the prior year, Defense was god awful. Kelly never owned up saying he needed to coach better or he needs to better develop/prepare his players. You look at Kizer and you see him taking on accountability of everyones actions and blaming himself. Hell I want to say that there are quotes or sound bites saying its his fault that guys arent playing motivated or with engery and that he says he needs to be in the huddle, speaking with more enthusiasm and bring even more enegry so the guys will feed off of him. The way he handled a disappointed season, the behavior of kelly, and dealing with his gf having cancer/tumor. I think this guy is pretty damn mentally tough. You also look at the '15 season and you see him making some of those clutch throws and drives. He was mentally tough to not crumble during some big games last year and some this year

Iamcanadian wrote:

Wentz has it all, arm strength and mental toughness, very strong leadership qualities and all the intangibles you could ever want.

I pray Kizer proves me wrong and develops, but I am not holding my breath expecting it.

You look at Wentz, he was in a damn comfy situation at NDSU. A situation when the starting QB goes down and the back up QB for the next 7-8 games or something like that is able to come in and lead the team to the title game. NDSU is the best program in 1-A. No matter what, NDSU was going to be the superior player at just about every position. Notre Dame, not so much. Kizer had to go through a lot more adversity at ND.

I think both of them have the arm strength, mental toughness, strong leadership qualities and all the intangibles.

The only edge I really give to Kizer is he has seen more NFL talent when he played in college. Has better collegiate experience because he was at a big time program, facing big time programs.


Sorry, but he had a whole post season to show and impress scouts, GM's and HC's about his overall talent and mental toughness and all he accomplished is to fall to round 2, when early in the process, he was viewed as a 1st round talent.

Kizer just kept going backwards in scouts and GM's estimations while the prospects he was being compared to, just kept moving up in the draft rankings and most of them were flawed.

IMO, Kizer will be a career backup and not much more.


If scouts and Gms were always right about their evaluations every 1st rounder would be a stud and QB1 will always be the best QB talent.

No one is saying Kizer was the perfect prospect but the dude has talent and potential
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buno67


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The draft is all about ceiling and you do not go #2 overall unless scouts and GM's view your ceiling as right up there. You go round 2 when they have grave doubts about your ceiling.[/quote]

I completely disagree. You want the player with the highest ceiling but it doesnt always work out that way.

Look at the 2014 NFL draft. IMO the QBs with the highest ceiling was Bortles and Carr. Carr fell to the 2nd rd. Carr had a lot higher ceiling than Manziel and Bridgewater IMO. Those two couldnt touch Carr's arm talent. Scouts were a little scared of Carr because of who his brother was.

Also to me in the 1st rd, its not just about ceiling. IMO they take in the floor consideration IMO. You want to take the player with a high ceiling but you would want to take the guy with a high floor, so you get some production. I remember. I believe Kizer has a very high ceiling but he has a low floor. If Kizer hits the floor, it looks pretty bad as a 1st rd pick. Where as a 2nd rd pick, its not nearly as bad.

I think the same thing with Manzeil. I thought Manziel had one hell of a ceiling but the dude didnt even have a floor, it went straight to the basement. To bad for the Browns he couldnt get out of the cellar

Scouts and GMs get it wrong. What they say and do isnt the be all end all.

Also with this 6% number saying 6% of round 2 or later drafted QB's ever succeed. What is the criteria of the QBs being successful or not?

Also the Browns could of looked at it this way. Wentz's ceiling wasnt worth it to take #2 overall, where Kizer's ceiling was well worth it to take in the 2nd rd.

------------

Edit

------------

Now I am trying to find some %s

From an article written in 2015.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round

Of the 122 QBs drafted in the last 10 years only 25 have been starters for at least half of their career.
The first round gives you a 63% chance of finding a starter.
The second round gives you a 27% chance, the third a 17% chance, then it really plummets from there with 8% in the fourth and 6% in the 7th.
In the last 10 years, 38 QBs have been drafted in the 5th and 6th rounds and not one has become a starter.


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/nfl-draft-round-round-qb-study-1994-2016

pretty good study about QBs and the rounds they were drafted in.
On average three QBs are drafted in the 1st. This year looks to be a little below average with two probable first rounders. (written in 2015)
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Mind Character


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NateDawg wrote:
I think there's a sizeable gap between these two guys as it concerns rookie readiness though. Kizer has a higher ceiling but a lower floor than Wentz. It's all about how he develops.


I completely agree that there's "a sizeable gap between" the two as it relates to rookie readiness. I included that in my assessment as it relates to Wentz winning out in comparison to Kizer in the trait/ability categories of leadership, adjustments at the line, experience under center, and pro offense understanding of the game.

However, rookie readiness is not the sole indicator for predicting potential longterm success of a player. Beyond that, rookie readiness is not an exact science (see Mariota, Flacco, Cam Newton inexperience calling plays and inexperience in pro offense under center).

Wentz had other issues with inaccuracy, basic throwing mechanics, and seizing mentally under pressure, and in blitz avoidance that when weighed against Kizer's unique deficiencies and strengths makes them similar prospects.





Iamcanadian wrote:
IMO, Wentz is a way better prospect than Kizer. Kizer stunk it up his last season, playing behind 2 OLmen who will be 1st round selects this season.



My brother in law informed me of some interesting statistics on Pump Fakes to contextualize Kizer's processing ability in light of seeing his eyes effectively manipulate defenders and progress through multiple reads.

As a result, I think a lot of people have some misconceptions about Kizer and his processing speed/ability. Specifically, it is thrown around a lot that all Kizer does is stare things down and/or he processes the game slowly.


I think his full body of college work proves otherwise. Specifically, the issues with Kizer's processing ability are often overstated and misunderstood due to confusing his lack of confidence/indecision in pulling the trigger after processing correctly/efficiently with being unable to process the game or read the game efficiently/correctly.

That is, Kizer processes the game with his eyes correctly, switches from one receiver to the next efficiently, but when it comes to the final decision he often hesitates.

One thing I noticed a ton was that he more than anyone I remember pumps the ball and eats it like he was going to pull the trigger and lacks the confidence to do so. When he then throws it late, it appears as if he 1) stared down the WR, and 2.) Bad things happen when he waits an extra tick.

My boi told me to check out the pump faking stats on QBs over the last decade since it's been tracked and specifically look at Kizer. Interesting stat, The statistic Pump Fake-To-Throw has various categories of completion, incompletion, INTs, PD, accuracy index. Out of the top 6 QBs over the last 8 years showed that Kizer was second on the list of all QBs in the Quantity of Pump Fakes followed by a throw. That's pretty remarkable and really explains a lot. It means Deshone generally pump fakes a lot (which of course can be to manipulate the defense for good reasons), but also given the quantity of pump fakes means he lacks confidence and/or is indecisive. The good news is that decisiveness can be fixed easier than trying to fix a QBs deficiencies in processing/understanding/reading the game/defense..

For some good insights regarding how Kizer often diagnoses things correctly but hesitates to disasterous results see Waldman's RSP on Kizer's post snap reaction timing:

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2017/01/11/rsp-boiler-room-no-70-deshone-kizer-post-snap-reaction-timing/
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buno67


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind Character wrote:
NateDawg wrote:
I think there's a sizeable gap between these two guys as it concerns rookie readiness though. Kizer has a higher ceiling but a lower floor than Wentz. It's all about how he develops.


I completely agree that there's "a sizeable gap between" the two as it relates to rookie readiness. I included that in my assessment as it relates to Wentz winning out in comparison to Kizer in the trait/ability categories of leadership, adjustments at the line, experience under center, and pro offense understanding of the game.

However, rookie readiness is not the sole indicator for predicting potential longterm success of a player. Beyond that, rookie readiness is not an exact science (see Mariota, Flacco, Cam Newton inexperience calling plays and inexperience in pro offense under center).

Wentz had other issues with inaccuracy, basic throwing mechanics, and seizing mentally under pressure, and in blitz avoidance that when weighed against Kizer's unique deficiencies and strengths makes them similar prospects.





Iamcanadian wrote:
IMO, Wentz is a way better prospect than Kizer. Kizer stunk it up his last season, playing behind 2 OLmen who will be 1st round selects this season.



My brother in law informed me of some interesting statistics on Pump Fakes to contextualize Kizer's processing ability in light of seeing his eyes effectively manipulate defenders and progress through multiple reads.

As a result, I think a lot of people have some misconceptions about Kizer and his processing speed/ability. Specifically, it is thrown around a lot that all Kizer does is stare things down and/or he processes the game slowly.


I think his full body of college work proves otherwise. Specifically, the issues with Kizer's processing ability are often overstated and misunderstood due to confusing his lack of confidence/indecision in pulling the trigger after processing correctly/efficiently with being unable to process the game or read the game efficiently/correctly.

That is, Kizer processes the game with his eyes correctly, switches from one receiver to the next efficiently, but when it comes to the final decision he often hesitates.

One thing I noticed a ton was that he more than anyone I remember pumps the ball and eats it like he was going to pull the trigger and lacks the confidence to do so. When he then throws it late, it appears as if he 1) stared down the WR, and 2.) Bad things happen when he waits an extra tick.

My boi told me to check out the pump faking stats on QBs over the last decade since it's been tracked and specifically look at Kizer. Interesting stat, The statistic Pump Fake-To-Throw has various categories of completion, incompletion, INTs, PD, accuracy index. Out of the top 6 QBs over the last 8 years showed that Kizer was second on the list of all QBs in the Quantity of Pump Fakes followed by a throw. That's pretty remarkable and really explains a lot. It means Deshone generally pump fakes a lot (which of course can be to manipulate the defense for good reasons), but also given the quantity of pump fakes means he lacks confidence and/or is indecisive. The good news is that decisiveness can be fixed easier than trying to fix a QBs deficiencies in processing/understanding/reading the game/defense..

For some good insights regarding how Kizer often diagnoses things correctly but hesitates to disasterous results see Waldman's RSP on Kizer's post snap reaction timing:

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2017/01/11/rsp-boiler-room-no-70-deshone-kizer-post-snap-reaction-timing/


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Mind Character


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kizer has many issues to fix before he can even be considered the guy. A lot of us have detailed these issues to great extent.

Iamcanadian, one thing you seem to missing is the sinking ship that was Notre Dame Football this season.

Kizer balled out in the Texas game, but the team lost b/c the defense couldn't stop a Texas offense.

Kizer did not get their Defensive coordinator fired after game 3 or 4. How many d-coordinators at major schools get fired after 3 or 4 games? Beyond that, how many defenses, players, and teams respond well after that. That all was independent of Kizer and his existent deficiencies. Thus, the team had issues that would be a major barrier to winning.

Kelly blamed players and took no accountability for the teams struggles which was quoted by buno. He pulled Kizer repeatedly to set a tone to the rest of the team. The players tweeted about their distrust and the lack of unity in the team.

Many players opposed the d-coordinator firing early season.

The ND football boat was sinking early on. Even in Kizer's best game...they lost. Losing at the QB position is the death knell and simple evaluations of Kizer could not get past the 4-8 record. Beyond that, Kizer did indeed struggle down the stretch, but so did Trubisky; however, Mitch had a winning team with experience at key positions.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind Character wrote:
Kizer has many issues to fix before he can even be considered the guy. A lot of us have detailed these issues to great extent.

Iamcanadian, one thing you seem to missing is the sinking ship that was Notre Dame Football this season.

Kizer balled out in the Texas game, but the team lost b/c the defense couldn't stop a Texas offense.

Kizer did not get their Defensive coordinator fired after game 3 or 4. How many d-coordinators at major schools get fired after 3 or 4 games? Beyond that, how many defenses, players, and teams respond well after that. That all was independent of Kizer and his existent deficiencies. Thus, the team had issues that would be a major barrier to winning.

Kelly blamed players and took no accountability for the teams struggles which was quoted by buno. He pulled Kizer repeatedly to set a tone to the rest of the team. The players tweeted about their distrust and the lack of unity in the team.

Many players opposed the d-coordinator firing early season.

The ND football boat was sinking early on. Even in Kizer's best game...they lost. Losing at the QB position is the death knell and simple evaluations of Kizer could not get past the 4-8 record. Beyond that, Kizer did indeed struggle down the stretch, but so did Trubisky; however, Mitch had a winning team with experience at key positions.


Like all prospects, Kizer had the post season to show how talented he was. He started out as Mayock's #1 QB, but fell severely as the post season progressed and finished at #4 and it is not like the 3 ahead of him were looked upon as being special. That is not what you want to see in a QB you drafted. We know he has the physical talent, so the post season had to have exposed hs intangibles as wanting, especially his mental toughness.

I for one, would absolutely love it if he surprises me and becomes another Carr, what Brown's fan wouldn't, but I am not holding my breath, because I do not believe he has what it takes to be a solid NFL starter.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
Mind Character wrote:
Kizer has many issues to fix before he can even be considered the guy. A lot of us have detailed these issues to great extent.

Iamcanadian, one thing you seem to missing is the sinking ship that was Notre Dame Football this season.

Kizer balled out in the Texas game, but the team lost b/c the defense couldn't stop a Texas offense.

Kizer did not get their Defensive coordinator fired after game 3 or 4. How many d-coordinators at major schools get fired after 3 or 4 games? Beyond that, how many defenses, players, and teams respond well after that. That all was independent of Kizer and his existent deficiencies. Thus, the team had issues that would be a major barrier to winning.

Kelly blamed players and took no accountability for the teams struggles which was quoted by buno. He pulled Kizer repeatedly to set a tone to the rest of the team. The players tweeted about their distrust and the lack of unity in the team.

Many players opposed the d-coordinator firing early season.

The ND football boat was sinking early on. Even in Kizer's best game...they lost. Losing at the QB position is the death knell and simple evaluations of Kizer could not get past the 4-8 record. Beyond that, Kizer did indeed struggle down the stretch, but so did Trubisky; however, Mitch had a winning team with experience at key positions.


Like all prospects, Kizer had the post season to show how talented he was. He started out as Mayock's #1 QB, but fell severely as the post season progressed and finished at #4 and it is not like the 3 ahead of him were looked upon as being special. That is not what you want to see in a QB you drafted. We know he has the physical talent, so the post season had to have exposed hs intangibles as wanting, especially his mental toughness.

I for one, would absolutely love it if he surprises me and becomes another Carr, what Brown's fan wouldn't, but I am not holding my breath, because I do not believe he has what it takes to be a solid NFL starter.


The things he had to go through at ND, I dont think it was mental toughness. Dealing with that jack wagon of a HC and having his girlriend and someone I see being his significant other in the future, go through the process of removing a tumor from her neck. He never once let those things get the best to him. No incidents, no outbursts to the media, nothing. He just went out there and did his job and was accountable for the poor performance by the entire ND team, something Kelly wasnt even willing to accept.

I would really question things if Kizer dropped to the 3rd or 4th rd because you than saw teams past on a player at least two to three times, specailly when it was outside of a 1st rd pick. Him falling to the 2nd shouldnt be the biggest red flag. Specially when you hear rumors about potentially other teams wanting him where he fell to the Browns. Also I could careless where Mayock or Kiper had players ranked. I cant stand it when people think those guys set the be all end all rankings of players. It all comes down to where teams rank the players. Browns had a shot at every single QB and passed on all of them at #1. Browns had their shot at Watson but didnt like him enough. Kizer falls to the 2nd rd pick and even in the interviews the Browns have stated they didnt think Kizer would be there and decided to pull the trigger on him. A guy can fall in the draft for whatever reason.


I also there is something to say that Kelly has replaced the OC and the QB coach from last year because those guys werent good at their jobs but yet Kizer was still about to look pretty good at times and produce for them.

I think with Hue and Lee, they could fix the issues he had while at ND.
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brownie man


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing I like about Kizer over Wentz is youth.

When Wentz was a RS Sophomore nobody knew who he was he didn't get any type of hyper until his last two years and really that last year.

By Kizer's RS sophomore year he's already played against top competition and beaten teams like USC, Pitt, Miami who all had NFL talent on their defense.


The Player Kizer is two years from now >>> Carson Wentz the 2016 prospect.
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I never even predicted Kizer to fail, I simply said he was an over drafted project. Now tell me that I am wrong in that regard.


^^^^
This dude is gonna look real bad
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
Mind Character wrote:
Kizer has many issues to fix before he can even be considered the guy. A lot of us have detailed these issues to great extent.

Iamcanadian, one thing you seem to missing is the sinking ship that was Notre Dame Football this season.

Kizer balled out in the Texas game, but the team lost b/c the defense couldn't stop a Texas offense.

Kizer did not get their Defensive coordinator fired after game 3 or 4. How many d-coordinators at major schools get fired after 3 or 4 games? Beyond that, how many defenses, players, and teams respond well after that. That all was independent of Kizer and his existent deficiencies. Thus, the team had issues that would be a major barrier to winning.

Kelly blamed players and took no accountability for the teams struggles which was quoted by buno. He pulled Kizer repeatedly to set a tone to the rest of the team. The players tweeted about their distrust and the lack of unity in the team.

Many players opposed the d-coordinator firing early season.

The ND football boat was sinking early on. Even in Kizer's best game...they lost. Losing at the QB position is the death knell and simple evaluations of Kizer could not get past the 4-8 record. Beyond that, Kizer did indeed struggle down the stretch, but so did Trubisky; however, Mitch had a winning team with experience at key positions.


Like all prospects, Kizer had the post season to show how talented he was. He started out as Mayock's #1 QB, but fell severely as the post season progressed and finished at #4 and it is not like the 3 ahead of him were looked upon as being special. That is not what you want to see in a QB you drafted. We know he has the physical talent, so the post season had to have exposed hs intangibles as wanting, especially his mental toughness.

I for one, would absolutely love it if he surprises me and becomes another Carr, what Brown's fan wouldn't, but I am not holding my breath, because I do not believe he has what it takes to be a solid NFL starter.


The things he had to go through at ND, I dont think it was mental toughness. Dealing with that jack wagon of a HC and having his girlriend and someone I see being his significant other in the future, go through the process of removing a tumor from her neck. He never once let those things get the best to him. No incidents, no outbursts to the media, nothing. He just went out there and did his job and was accountable for the poor performance by the entire ND team, something Kelly wasnt even willing to accept.

I would really question things if Kizer dropped to the 3rd or 4th rd because you than saw teams past on a player at least two to three times, specailly when it was outside of a 1st rd pick. Him falling to the 2nd shouldnt be the biggest red flag. Specially when you hear rumors about potentially other teams wanting him where he fell to the Browns. Also I could careless where Mayock or Kiper had players ranked. I cant stand it when people think those guys set the be all end all rankings of players. It all comes down to where teams rank the players. Browns had a shot at every single QB and passed on all of them at #1. Browns had their shot at Watson but didnt like him enough. Kizer falls to the 2nd rd pick and even in the interviews the Browns have stated they didnt think Kizer would be there and decided to pull the trigger on him. A guy can fall in the draft for whatever reason.

That old saying, 'I didn't think he would be there' is just a lot of hype, used by GM to make their decisions look brilliant. You have to remember, QB's get pushed up in drafts because of the importance of the position and in Kizer's case, he was also likely pushed up by the same reasoning, he likely carried a middle of round 2 ranking.


I also there is something to say that Kelly has replaced the OC and the QB coach from last year because those guys werent good at their jobs but yet Kizer was still about to look pretty good at times and produce for them.

Quote:

Notre Dame is loaded with money, they do not hire bums, but guys with proven track records. Tom Brady was under attack for a whole season with the threat of being suspended for a season, but he is mentally tough as nails and it didn't seem to effect him 1 iota. That's what successful NFL QB's are made of, they are mentally as tough as nails and I am not seeing that toughness in Kizer. It's a judgement call on my part and maybe I am wrong, but at this point, an awful lot of scouts and GM's doubted his character in this area, so we will just have to wait and see the results.


I think with Hue and Lee, they could fix the issues he had while at ND.


In my experience, 'tough as nails' is one of those areas that cannot be fixed in a QB, he either has it or he doesn't.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brownie man wrote:
The thing I like about Kizer over Wentz is youth.




When Wentz was a RS Sophomore nobody knew who he was he didn't get any type of hyper until his last two years and really that last year.

Quote:

He played for a school that nobody cared about except their fans, so of course he received no real hype. That's what makes his rise all the more impressive, he had to convince scouts and GM's that he was the real deal coming from an unknown school and he did it convincingly.


By Kizer's RS sophomore year he's already played against top competition and beaten teams like USC, Pitt, Miami who all had NFL talent on their defense.

Quote:

Kizer played for the most popular school in America, so of course everybody knew who he was and he was surrounded by immense talent yet finished his last season 4-8.

If hype made you a sure fire pro, every All american would all be All Pros as well, but the fact remains that come draft day and the pros, college hype means squat in relation to making it in the NFL. Talent at every level is what gets you there, whether it be physical or mental.

Wentz has a real chance to be a huge star in the NFL, no guarantee but it is looking pretty solid. Kizer is at best, a longshot to ever be a starting QB in the NFL and has the look of a career backup. Could he surprise, of course, it is always possible, but the odds are against him.



The Player Kizer is two years from now >>> Carson Wentz the 2016 prospect.


I do not think we are anywhere near being able to say this with any certainty, but it would be really nice if it pans out this way.
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