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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 11625
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chili wrote:
CentralFC wrote:
Chili wrote:
Boyd was totally a JAG. In his first two years he had zero sacks. Not only that there was also a noticeable drop off in our run defence when he was in. He was completely worthless. I think he would've been cut anyway if he never gotten injured. Someone had to make way when Guion came back from his suspension.

Btw Nelson only got that 3rd contract because he was willing to take less to stay at Green Bay. Do we honestly think Burnett will? I don't and I think this will be his last season with us.

Best case scenario we will have Jones stepping up alongside HaHa, there's also the potential of Randall moving to safety next year if corner doesn't work out for him. I'm skeptical because you need to be tough to play safety and Randall is not so I'm really hoping that he will bounce back and have a career year at corner.


would love some more information on how Boyd was a drop off for our run defense.

He was quite easily regarded as a + run defender.

Boyd would not have been cut when Guion returned, either.
So you conveniently forgotten our abysmal run defence forcing us to play Clay Matthews at ILB to temporally fix it. Our run defence was better when Raji was playing and when he got knocked out for the season Boyd did not prove to be an adequate replacement.

Poor run defence + zero sacks = JAG all day long. Laughing


ah yes forgot where it was said that Boyd was supposed to be our starting nose tackle.

he was a rotational lineman. saying our "run defense sucked" and Matthews' move to ILB was due to Josh Boyd is ridiculous Laughing
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packerjmf wrote:
GWH87 wrote:
Somebody take the off season shovel out of Ted's hands & bury him in his own hole.

How can he dig a hole if he's too busy sitting on his hands?
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Shanedorf


Joined: 18 Mar 2014
Posts: 1410
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure why we're even mentioning sacks - for a 5th round DT/NT plug who's main job is to take on double teams. No stats for that
He's not even on the field in passing situations. He's a rotational guy who plays 33 % of the snaps. He also wasn't worthless , but opinions vary

As far as the JAG connotation, I think some view it as a pejorative comment, while others view those guys as necessary parts to any team. You need low cost guys who are reliable and can fill out the bottom half of the roster without impacting the cap.

By definition they are "replaceable", but you have limited resources and are competing with 31 other teams for players' services.
They also aren't interchangeable, that's different than replaceable.
And the goal isn't to replace a JAG, its to upgrade that spot.
So how much does it cost in draft capital to upgrade a JAG, and is that delta worth the investment ?

I've made negative comments about Barclay in the past, but its hard to find a guy who is good enough to play yet is willing to take a back-up utility position.
If he's any good , he wants to start
JAGs may be replaceable, but neither FAs nor draft picks are guaranteed upgrades and that makes these guys a just little more valuable.
.
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HyponGrey


Joined: 23 Jun 2012
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Location: Down the road from NFL Films
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because if it can't be quantified on paper, it doesn't exist, even if there's film
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justo wrote:
Bostick drove a guy 12 yards and finished off with a pancake and I'm not sure where my pants went.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
And I think it's likely Burnett could be in that Jordy mold of thinking. Leader, playing at a high level, brains and communication skills hugely important, no physical drop in play yet.

There are also other players like Peppers and Woodson he has signed to "3rd" contracts, so I don't see why "Packers drafted" is a distinction. A lot of players either don't last that long or are starting to drop off, so it makes sense most wouldn't be resigned, but I'm not sure I think Burnett fits into either of those categories.


Honestly, I see it more similar to Greg Jennings than I do Jordy Nelson. Greg Jennings was, what 30 years old when he left Green Bay for Minnesota? Some team is going to be willing to pay him premium pay for safety, and Ted's never really been in the business of paying for declining play. And the Josh Jones selection creates the opportunity to save money with a younger, and cheaper player.

As for why I use the qualifier about "Packer drafted", because it's quite clear. The first contract comes from the team that signs them, that's a given. But when players hit, teams rarely let them walk after their rookie contracts. Which means in any given year, you're probably looking at players who are on their 3rd contract or you're sifting through that latter rung of FAs. Obviously, when you have players who were drafted by Green Bay, you're getting them for your first and almost always second contract. And as I said, the only two players who were drafted by Green Bay and received 3rd contracts were Jordy Nelson and Aaron Rodgers. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't view Burnett in that same light.
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PackFan4Life wrote:
I have been pooping like a unicorn for two days and it is freaky.

bkobow05 wrote:
So this is what DCR feels like on Saturdays...
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TransientTexan wrote:
The issue is that contracts are awarded by how a player is projected to play in the future instead of what he has done in the past. Outside of a couple exceptions, most of the 3rd-contract guys the Packers have signed are playing for peanuts. If Burnett is ok with that, they might offer him a deal, but if not, I'd guess they let him walk and get a comp pick. Especially if there's a cheap in-house guy that can provide 80% of what a 29+ yr old Burnett can. That's the key.

I figure some struggling team w/ lots of cap space will offer almost as much as he is getting now to bring him in as a good vet presence (like Cleveland with TWill).


Very much this. Top 10 paid safeties are making north of $7M, which means Morgan Burnett is set to get a raise next year of at least $1M assuming you believe he'll get paid accordingly. If you can replace Morgan Burnett with a cheaper, younger, and potentially better long term option at safety for a fraction of the price, why wouldn't you do it? Let Burnett walk, and you're likely looking at a 4th round compensatory pick maybe even 3rd if some team goes crazy and throws a ton of cash at him.
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PackFan4Life wrote:
I have been pooping like a unicorn for two days and it is freaky.

bkobow05 wrote:
So this is what DCR feels like on Saturdays...
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ArodFanboy


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
TransientTexan wrote:
The issue is that contracts are awarded by how a player is projected to play in the future instead of what he has done in the past. Outside of a couple exceptions, most of the 3rd-contract guys the Packers have signed are playing for peanuts. If Burnett is ok with that, they might offer him a deal, but if not, I'd guess they let him walk and get a comp pick. Especially if there's a cheap in-house guy that can provide 80% of what a 29+ yr old Burnett can. That's the key.

I figure some struggling team w/ lots of cap space will offer almost as much as he is getting now to bring him in as a good vet presence (like Cleveland with TWill).


Very much this. Top 10 paid safeties are making north of $7M, which means Morgan Burnett is set to get a raise next year of at least $1M assuming you believe he'll get paid accordingly. If you can replace Morgan Burnett with a cheaper, younger, and potentially better long term option at safety for a fraction of the price, why wouldn't you do it? Let Burnett walk, and you're likely looking at a 4th round compensatory pick maybe even 3rd if some team goes crazy and throws a ton of cash at him.


I'm on board with the logic overall, however Morgan has been a consistently above average player for this defense for so many years that even though he's clearly replaceable, I worry the defense as a whole takes a hit without him until more guys start hitting their primes. Especially if Jones thrives anywhere outside of where Morgan is currently playing. This defense is incredibly young overall anyway that turnover just for the sake of knowing you can hit might be more risky than taking Morgan until say like 31-32.
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DavidatMIZZOU


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We also have to look at what we will be investing at the safety position. Morgan Burnett is the 12th highest paid safety in the league, and not yet regressing. Whether in Green Bay or somewhere else, he will likely get a raise. HaHa Clinton-Dix is the 46th highest paid safety in the league, and if salaries stay about the same, his fifth year option puts him around 20th. I suspect that Ted and Co. will sign him for more than that whether it is an extension this season or after the option year. The Packers are currently the 10th highest spenders at the safety position, and have two players that will see a raise in 2018. I don't think anyone will disagree that we need to retain HaHa. There is significant money saved by using Jones and Brice instead of Burnett.

Now proper use of that cap money may be re-signing Morgan Burnett. I am not against it, I think he is a good player. I was just pointing out that it seems like a TT move to not retain Morgan's services.
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GO PACK GO!

mistakebytehlak wrote:

My god it must be so terrible to have three teams that consistently make the playoffs

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Chili


Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 604
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From MMQB:
Quote:
The Packers are among the league’s best at identifying and promoting undrafted talent. In each of Ted Thompson’s 12 seasons as general manager, at least one undrafted free agent has made the season-opening 53-man roster. Last year, 17 undrafted players saw snaps. If you’re looking for a guy to break through in 2017, I’d keep an eye on linebacker/fullback Cody Heiman, out of Division II Washburn. I profiled him in the College Column earlier this season. He’s from a tiny Kansas town (Baileyville, population: 181) and played eight-man football through high school. Heiman was first noticed by longtime Bears trainer Russ Riederer, who now lives in Kansas. “I had Brian Urlacher at the Bears,” Riederer told me. “I’m not saying Cody is Brian Urlacher, because he’s one of the special lifetime players you get to coach, but he’s not that far off.”
Shocked
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NormSizedMidget


Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 17805
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chili wrote:
From MMQB:
Quote:
The Packers are among the league’s best at identifying and promoting undrafted talent. In each of Ted Thompson’s 12 seasons as general manager, at least one undrafted free agent has made the season-opening 53-man roster. Last year, 17 undrafted players saw snaps. If you’re looking for a guy to break through in 2017, I’d keep an eye on linebacker/fullback Cody Heiman, out of Division II Washburn. I profiled him in the College Column earlier this season. He’s from a tiny Kansas town (Baileyville, population: 181) and played eight-man football through high school. Heiman was first noticed by longtime Bears trainer Russ Riederer, who now lives in Kansas. “I had Brian Urlacher at the Bears,” Riederer told me. “I’m not saying Cody is Brian Urlacher, because he’s one of the special lifetime players you get to coach, but he’s not that far off.”
Shocked


Could you imagine lol...

Also 8 man football. I played 9. I think Nebraska still has 6 too lol. 6 is pretty wild.
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Chili


Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 604
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ILB is a position I will be looking at with great interest this off season. The Packers have been trying to upgrade their defence by adding size and speed. We aren't particularly good at defending the middle and so it stands to reason that the Packers will be looking to find ways of improving that.

Everyone is hoping Martinez will make that 2nd year jump. I hope so too because I think he's a good player.

Despite his fairly steady play Ryan needs to start adding some playmaking ability into his game. So far his career he has zero sacks, zero interceptions and zero forced fumbles. He's at that critical stage now where his career could go either way.

Joe Thomas is clearly isn't the answer and I would imagine the Packers will make efforts to upgrade on him if they can. This is where Josh Jones comes in.

I am most curious about Talley and Heiman, Athletically they are big upgrades in the middle but they also come backed up with solid college production. If anything they could improve our lack of depth in that position. I anticipate them beating out Thomas, Tripp and Mathews for the backup spots especially if the Packers are serious about getting more athletic in the middle.

Last year we began the season with just 3 ILB but ended the season with 5 on the roster. It stands to reason that we could keep 4 at the 53 man cutdown and for me if I had to guess it would be Ryan, Martinez, Talley and Heiman.

I'm beginning to understand why TT does not prioritise ILB highly in the draft because it is a position that doesnt rack up the sacks, interceptions and fumbles. They're basically in no-man's land on the field where it's difficult to have an impact on the game. Most of the time all they can do is do the dirty work of blocking the holes, make the tackles and cut off passing lanes in the middle. You can find solid guys like that in the later rounds of the draft hence why we waited till the 4th to get Ryan and Martinez and bringing in UDFAs instead. Agree or disagree it just isn't a position where you spend big money on.
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
Posts: 4674
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^

Heiman is this year's Dorleant, Jeff Janis, Jayrone Elliot, Samkon Gado, Ruvell Martin...

There are some I'm missing, but essentially this is how it works:

1. Get you a player with an easy nickname/calling card (Deodorant, Julio Janis, Shakespeare, In Gado We Trust, Gumby).

2. Have them either come into the league with incredible athletic talent or speed --OR-- have them flash crazy potential/playmaking abilities in either the preseason or backing up an injured player during the season.

3. Create wild, unrealistic and damn near impossible expectations for the player by proclaiming his potential to be Hall of Fame worthy and iconic level stuff.

4. Wait for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks for them to get onto or back onto the field.

5. See them make two plays a season, shout and scream and proclaim that it's happening, even post the Ron Paul "It's happening" gif.

6. Go into deep dark depression when they do nothing ever for the rest of their career.
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Chili


Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 604
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was just looking at our punt & kick return candidates. The options aren't great.

Punt: Cobb, Davis, Pringle, Crockett, Waters, A.Jones

Kick: Cobb, Davis, Montgomery, Pringle, Crockett, Janis, Waters, A.Jones

If Hawkins and Randall had any return ability they would've already done so for the Packers so its fairly safe to count them out. Donatello, Pipkins, McCaffrey, Dupre, Yancey, Waters, A.Jones don't have any experience returning the ball.

Cobb is the obvious candidate. It could be time to bring him back.

Davis has been tried out at both kick and punt and shown he can do it but he also need to show he can be relied on.

Pringle has been successful as a kick returner but not so sure about punt returns. He has the size and speed to gradually be a contributor on defence. One to watch.

Crockett has plenty of experience but I don't like his tape. Just looks very lightweight and one dimensional with little to offer as a WR.

Waters is a dark horse candidate. He didnt do returns in college mainly because there were better options for Miami to use but he does have the speed and agility to make an impact there. It could be his way on the roster. As a former WR he should be comfortable catching the ball.

Same for Aaron Jones. I would be interested to see if he is capable of returns.

If Montgomery doesnt win the starting RB gig then we should look for him to be our main kickoff returner.
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chili wrote:
Davis has been tried out at both kick and punt and shown he can do it but he also need to show he can be relied on.

As far as I'm concerned, Davis hasn't done anything to suggest he can't be relied on. His one muffed punt was on a fair catch, and he was contacted before the ball hit the ground. Based on literally every single possible interpretation of the rule, he was illegally hit, it was fair catch interference and the Packers should have kept the ball.

That was the one single time that Davis made any kind of major mistake in those duties and then we never saw him again. He was given a raw, raw, raw deal on all of that.

I don't think there's any reason not to think that it's Davis going forward. Davis is absolutely the most overlooked potential bright spot on our entire roster.

Also, punt return specialist ranks somewhere below inside linebacker, running back, tight end, kicker, punter and maybe even long snapper as positions I'm worried about.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cobb is a great returner, with the emergence of Adams, the signing of two TEs that specialize in running the middle of the field and a starting RB that is a bigger version of him, his role is no longer as special. I suspect in prior years we couldn't risk injury with him back there, but now we have tons of depth, I hope he gets both jobs.
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