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This years strength on offense for the 2018 draft
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
By the way, Earl Thomas, who was in the same draft as Berry, turned out to be the better player as Mayock predicted.


Just want to pull this comment out. Now while I admit to being a Vols fan, there is literally nothing to support this claim. They've been used in different ways during their careers, and both are all-pro, elite level players based on how they've been used. Add in to that fact Berry overcame cancer to be every bit as good as Thomas and that premise is strained at best.


Berry is great. But in a vacuum, I'd rather have earl thomas.


It depends. Berry has been on average used more as that in-the-box type safety to cover TEs, attack the run, and support the defensive front. But he has also been used as a FS to cover the deep middle. And he has been excellent in all facets. That said, Thomas is probably the only safety in the NFL that is clearly a better deep cover safety than Berry. I'd take Berry first due to his flexibility, Thomas second due to his deep cover ability and lack of flexibility, then McCourty as my third best safety and Harrison Smith fourth.

But as I said, I am a Vols fan, so I may be a bit biased.
Thomas plays single high more and is the best in the NFL at it. That's pretty much the end of the discussion, he's better than Berry. Berry is a great player, but box safeties aren't as valuable, and he spends a decent amount of time playing in that role.


Just because Thomas is the best single high safety doesn't mean he is better than Berry. That'd be like saying that Tyron Smith is a better player than Zack Martin(as an example), just because Tyron is the best LT in the game.


You made the point for us. He's better because he plays a position of higher need (LT) at a high level. Tyron Smith is more likely to be a better left guard than Martin is to be a left tackle also.
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Ragnarok


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:

You made the point for us. He's better because he plays a position of higher need (LT) at a high level. Tyron Smith is more likely to be a better left guard than Martin is to be a left tackle also.


A guy playing a position of higher need at a high level in no way makes them a better overall player. That makes no sense. There are a number of QBs that play at a high level, are they automatically better than Joe Thomas cause they play a position of higher need? Of course not.

Also, how can you make the assumption that Tyron would be a better LG than Martin would be a LT? There's literally nothing to back that up. Tyron might struggle more against bigger DTs than Martin would against smaller DEs.
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Counselor


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me Thomas over Berry all day
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counselor wrote:
Give me Thomas over Berry all day


I agree, in today's game, where passing the ball dominates offenses, a Safety must be very capable of man to man coverage and Thomas excels at that.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:

You made the point for us. He's better because he plays a position of higher need (LT) at a high level. Tyron Smith is more likely to be a better left guard than Martin is to be a left tackle also.


A guy playing a position of higher need at a high level in no way makes them a better overall player. That makes no sense. There are a number of QBs that play at a high level, are they automatically better than Joe Thomas cause they play a position of higher need? Of course not.

Quote:
I disagree, those QB's who play at a high level will always be considered far more important than a LT. There isn't a team in the NFL that would not trade their LT for a franchise QB, unless they already had one.


Also, how can you make the assumption that Tyron would be a better LG than Martin would be a LT? There's literally nothing to back that up. Tyron might struggle more against bigger DTs than Martin would against smaller DEs.


This is a completely different comparison, but in the end, an all star LT like Smith, could probably play OG better than an OG could translate to LT, although Smith might not be as effective as Martin at LG, he would still likely be a better LG than Martin a LT.
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Ragnarok


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
Counselor wrote:
Give me Thomas over Berry all day


I agree, in today's game, where passing the ball dominates offenses, a Safety must be very capable of man to man coverage and Thomas excels at that.


That point I don't take issue with. I do think that Berry is equally as good in man to man coverage, but it's so close that I wouldn't complain if someone simply said they though Thomas is better.
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Ragnarok


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:

You made the point for us. He's better because he plays a position of higher need (LT) at a high level. Tyron Smith is more likely to be a better left guard than Martin is to be a left tackle also.


A guy playing a position of higher need at a high level in no way makes them a better overall player. That makes no sense. There are a number of QBs that play at a high level, are they automatically better than Joe Thomas cause they play a position of higher need? Of course not.

Quote:
I disagree, those QB's who play at a high level will always be considered far more important than a LT. There isn't a team in the NFL that would not trade their LT for a franchise QB, unless they already had one.


Also, how can you make the assumption that Tyron would be a better LG than Martin would be a LT? There's literally nothing to back that up. Tyron might struggle more against bigger DTs than Martin would against smaller DEs.


This is a completely different comparison, but in the end, an all star LT like Smith, could probably play OG better than an OG could translate to LT, although Smith might not be as effective as Martin at LG, he would still likely be a better LG than Martin a LT.


I know it wasn't a perfect comparison, and you could somewhat reasonably assume that, but it's not a given. There is a chance that Smith would struggle much more at LG with big DTs than Marton would with speed rushers. I had more issue with the premise of the argument and its logical failings than the overall conclusion.
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Ozzy


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iamcanadian wrote:

This draft could be special at a lot of positions and with the # of top flight QB's, a lot of position players could get pushed down farther than they would have gone if they had been in this year's draft.

By the way, Earl Thomas, who was in the same draft as Berry, turned out to be the better player as Mayock predicted. I love Key, the best non QB in the draft, but I feel Wilkins still has a ways to go before we can go crazy over him. I am only seeing him at this point as a very late 1st rounder.
I think it is a toss up between Fournette and Barkley as to who is the better prospect, I'd give a slight edge to Fournette at this stage.

As for James, I agree, he is a huge talent, but he is coming off an injury, so we will have to wait on that one. I do agree that the Safety crop is 1st class. Watch out for SS Jonathan Crawford of Indiana as well. I think the OLB/DE class is very solid and could produce a large # of 1st rounders.

That is not the point, regardless who is better Berry or Thomas both came out in the same year, so would be the same amount of time since a safety like James comes along arguably. Could argue either way with Thomas or Berry who is better, Thomas has played longer in terms of games, but both have been to the same amount of pro bowls and of late Berry has played better, Thomas hope he can come back off that injury but you never know. Berry has obviously already came back from a ton already.

*Earl Thomas 107 games started, 407 tackles, 10 FF, 23 INTs 5 pro bowls, 1 TD, 7 years in the league.

*Eric Berry 84 games started, 367 tackles, 4 FF, 14 INTs, 5 pro bowls, 5 TDs, 7 years in the league.


Regardless James is a very rare safety talent, that is the point. Not to mention he is taller and longer than both of them, will see if his speed stacks up.



And Jonathan Crawford is a solid player, but could argue in terms of a prospect Marcelino Ball on Indiana is a better prospect overall. Only a true sophomore however, really impressed with Ball's play, able to be in the slot at times, play deep coverage and good open field tackler. Crawford is solid, I also like Fant at corner for them and Scales is a very interesting linebacker as well. Was pretty shocking but they had a solid defense last year, much improved and a lot had to do with Allen at coach I believe.


I don't think you give Christian Wilkins enough credit, the kid has been on extremely productive for a young prospect from the get go. Is a huge man, very wide body but an outstanding athlete for a interior lineman and could easily play 3/4 in a DE position or play DT in a 4/3. Is a fine talent, huge, long and wide body, is worth a top 10 pick easy I feel.
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freak_of_nature


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozzy wrote:

I don't think you give Christian Wilkins enough credit, the kid has been on extremely productive for a young prospect from the get go. Is a huge man, very wide body but an outstanding athlete for a interior lineman and could easily play 3/4 in a DE position or play DT in a 4/3. Is a fine talent, huge, long and wide body, is worth a top 10 pick easy I feel.


I'd give up the Dolphin's 2018 1st rounder for Wilkins today.
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AlexGreen#20


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
By the way, Earl Thomas, who was in the same draft as Berry, turned out to be the better player as Mayock predicted.


Just want to pull this comment out. Now while I admit to being a Vols fan, there is literally nothing to support this claim. They've been used in different ways during their careers, and both are all-pro, elite level players based on how they've been used. Add in to that fact Berry overcame cancer to be every bit as good as Thomas and that premise is strained at best.


Berry is great. But in a vacuum, I'd rather have earl thomas.


It depends. Berry has been on average used more as that in-the-box type safety to cover TEs, attack the run, and support the defensive front. But he has also been used as a FS to cover the deep middle. And he has been excellent in all facets. That said, Thomas is probably the only safety in the NFL that is clearly a better deep cover safety than Berry. I'd take Berry first due to his flexibility, Thomas second due to his deep cover ability and lack of flexibility, then McCourty as my third best safety and Harrison Smith fourth.

But as I said, I am a Vols fan, so I may be a bit biased.
Thomas plays single high more and is the best in the NFL at it. That's pretty much the end of the discussion, he's better than Berry. Berry is a great player, but box safeties aren't as valuable, and he spends a decent amount of time playing in that role.


Curious why you say this when box safeties seem to get drafted higher and paid more?

Box safeties play the more valuable man to man on TEs.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
By the way, Earl Thomas, who was in the same draft as Berry, turned out to be the better player as Mayock predicted.


Just want to pull this comment out. Now while I admit to being a Vols fan, there is literally nothing to support this claim. They've been used in different ways during their careers, and both are all-pro, elite level players based on how they've been used. Add in to that fact Berry overcame cancer to be every bit as good as Thomas and that premise is strained at best.


Berry is great. But in a vacuum, I'd rather have earl thomas.


It depends. Berry has been on average used more as that in-the-box type safety to cover TEs, attack the run, and support the defensive front. But he has also been used as a FS to cover the deep middle. And he has been excellent in all facets. That said, Thomas is probably the only safety in the NFL that is clearly a better deep cover safety than Berry. I'd take Berry first due to his flexibility, Thomas second due to his deep cover ability and lack of flexibility, then McCourty as my third best safety and Harrison Smith fourth.

But as I said, I am a Vols fan, so I may be a bit biased.
Thomas plays single high more and is the best in the NFL at it. That's pretty much the end of the discussion, he's better than Berry. Berry is a great player, but box safeties aren't as valuable, and he spends a decent amount of time playing in that role.


Curious why you say this when box safeties seem to get drafted higher and paid more?

Box safeties play the more valuable man to man on TEs.


How many true Earl Thomas type safeties are in the league though? I count 1, Earl Thomas. I don't think we've seen a guy like him since Nick Collins left the league. Malik Hooker has a chance if it all clicks.

Hard to quantify contract value with a player that has a unique skillset.

There's no comparison to me between who I'd take. IMO Sherman and Chancellor would be nothing more than good/average players without Thomas. Hell watching Seattle without him last year proves that. Thomas might be the most valuable DB in the NFL not only because of his skillset but what he can bring out of other skill sets.
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Iamcanadian


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: This years strength on offense for the 2018 draft Reply with quote

Techbert wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
...Good list...


You're not connected with GBNReport, are you?

http://gbnreport.com/strengths-2018-draft/


No, but since we cannot post from other sites on this site, I was forced to use it as a reference point for the coming season. Normally, I would have just posted from that site, which has a fine reputation, but since I am a beginner on this site, I do not believe you can reference other sites here by name. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I said it was only a preliminary list and nothing more, with lots of changes to come. Just a stating point for discussion. I did fine tune it a bit based on my own observations, but I was really only interested in putting forth something we can talk about in the off season.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragnarok wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
By the way, Earl Thomas, who was in the same draft as Berry, turned out to be the better player as Mayock predicted.


Just want to pull this comment out. Now while I admit to being a Vols fan, there is literally nothing to support this claim. They've been used in different ways during their careers, and both are all-pro, elite level players based on how they've been used. Add in to that fact Berry overcame cancer to be every bit as good as Thomas and that premise is strained at best.


Berry is great. But in a vacuum, I'd rather have earl thomas.


It depends. Berry has been on average used more as that in-the-box type safety to cover TEs, attack the run, and support the defensive front. But he has also been used as a FS to cover the deep middle. And he has been excellent in all facets. That said, Thomas is probably the only safety in the NFL that is clearly a better deep cover safety than Berry. I'd take Berry first due to his flexibility, Thomas second due to his deep cover ability and lack of flexibility, then McCourty as my third best safety and Harrison Smith fourth.

But as I said, I am a Vols fan, so I may be a bit biased.
Thomas plays single high more and is the best in the NFL at it. That's pretty much the end of the discussion, he's better than Berry. Berry is a great player, but box safeties aren't as valuable, and he spends a decent amount of time playing in that role.


Just because Thomas is the best single high safety doesn't mean he is better than Berry. That'd be like saying that Tyron Smith is a better player than Zack Martin(as an example), just because Tyron is the best LT in the game.
That's not what I said. I said Thomas is the best in the game at single high, and I also noted that a single high safety is significantly more valuable than an in-the-box safety. I'm saying he's a better player and plays a more valuable role. I am not saying that he is better simply because he plays a more valuable role.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlexGreen#20 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Ragnarok wrote:
Iamcanadian wrote:
By the way, Earl Thomas, who was in the same draft as Berry, turned out to be the better player as Mayock predicted.


Just want to pull this comment out. Now while I admit to being a Vols fan, there is literally nothing to support this claim. They've been used in different ways during their careers, and both are all-pro, elite level players based on how they've been used. Add in to that fact Berry overcame cancer to be every bit as good as Thomas and that premise is strained at best.


Berry is great. But in a vacuum, I'd rather have earl thomas.


It depends. Berry has been on average used more as that in-the-box type safety to cover TEs, attack the run, and support the defensive front. But he has also been used as a FS to cover the deep middle. And he has been excellent in all facets. That said, Thomas is probably the only safety in the NFL that is clearly a better deep cover safety than Berry. I'd take Berry first due to his flexibility, Thomas second due to his deep cover ability and lack of flexibility, then McCourty as my third best safety and Harrison Smith fourth.

But as I said, I am a Vols fan, so I may be a bit biased.
Thomas plays single high more and is the best in the NFL at it. That's pretty much the end of the discussion, he's better than Berry. Berry is a great player, but box safeties aren't as valuable, and he spends a decent amount of time playing in that role.


Curious why you say this when box safeties seem to get drafted higher and paid more?

Box safeties play the more valuable man to man on TEs.
There are more available.

A good single high safety allows for the other safety to move down and cover a TE in man.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ET is better than Berry?

Just gonna have to disagree with that. I'd say they're about equal.
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