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Round 5 Pick 173: Brian Allen 6'3 215 4.48
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4943
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allen was the first to sign.
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skywlker32


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 2915
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
Yeah, I don't think we are in a position to be cutting Cockrell. He may not be great, but we've started worse... *cough* Chad Scott *cough*... Laughing


I would have gone with Antwon Blake Crying or Very sad
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Steeler Hitman


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1795
Location: Laurel, MD
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
I get a kick out of the ragging on Cockrell. Makes me think many of you never saw Deshea Townsend play or Wille Gay or Ike Taylor when they played early in their careers.

As for the RFA tender.. how many other players were signed by other teams on RFAs this year ? I can only think of one.. in any case the original team has the right to match, its kind of like sending a MLB player to atbitration but only this is based on A more true market value.


Deshea Townsand was a solid CB for his size and the time he played. If teams passed like they do now, back then he could have had a steller career as a star Nickel. If Deshea were 2-3 inches taller and a half second faster, he would have been a pro bowler on the outside and a solid shut down CB. I think Deshea had better natural CB technique than even Lake and Woodson.

He got beat ealry because he was usually up against bigger, stronger and faster WR's. Give him Dwayne Washington's physique and he would have been pretty darn good. Townsend was pretty sound from a technique standpoint a la FS Darrin Perry who was slow as molasses, but knew the defense and was most always where he was supposed to be. Darrin Perry was Ed Reed from the neck up.
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Magnus-Viktor


Joined: 28 Apr 2016
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny to hear these old names like Townsend and McFadden. I hated Townsend at first, mainly because I was absolutely disgusted to see a scrub like him wearing Rod Woodson's jersey, since Woodson is my favorite athlete of all time in any sport and he was also the best all-around DB I've ever seen as well. Townsend was a very mediocre player that lacked the speed and size to be a stud. He is a lot like William Gay really. Subpar athletes that are actually decent due to technique and instincts that grow on you due to reliability over the years.

McFadden was so close to being a stud IMO. It just never quite clicked. You'd see flashes, and he checked all the boxes physically, but it just never materialized as I hoped.

I'm a guy that likes the measurables, especially when it comes to certain positions. CB is the top on that list where I value measurables because I don't want a runt that is constantly giving up the higher passes due to size, or a slow guy that gives up long TDs due to lack of recovery speed. That's why I was all-in on Brian Allen in the mid rounds. At that point, you're either going to get a raw guy with a high ceiling, a blocking TE, K, P, FB, or a mediocre player at another position, so I vote for the raw athlete that checks the boxes physically and has a high ceiling every time. Allen absolutely annihilated the combine and his pro day. Cherry picking the best results here (the vert and broad I don't devalue due to coming from his pro day vs combine....SS was 4.34 instead of 4.18 at combine...it's possible the surface could have impacted that but not much):

6'3" 215, 4.48 40, 38" vert, 10'7" broad, 4.18 SS, 6.64 3-cone. Those are all elite. Across the board. 15 reps for a CB with REALLY long arms (34") is pretty damn good too. 10" hands too. He's a big dude. Athletic. I just hope they can work some magic with him now.
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chargerbuckeye


Joined: 09 Oct 2014
Posts: 1610
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
Funny to hear these old names like Townsend and McFadden. I hated Townsend at first, mainly because I was absolutely disgusted to see a scrub like him wearing Rod Woodson's jersey, since Woodson is my favorite athlete of all time in any sport and he was also the best all-around DB I've ever seen as well. Townsend was a very mediocre player that lacked the speed and size to be a stud. He is a lot like William Gay really. Subpar athletes that are actually decent due to technique and instincts that grow on you due to reliability over the years.

McFadden was so close to being a stud IMO. It just never quite clicked. You'd see flashes, and he checked all the boxes physically, but it just never materialized as I hoped.

I'm a guy that likes the measurables, especially when it comes to certain positions. CB is the top on that list where I value measurables because I don't want a runt that is constantly giving up the higher passes due to size, or a slow guy that gives up long TDs due to lack of recovery speed. That's why I was all-in on Brian Allen in the mid rounds. At that point, you're either going to get a raw guy with a high ceiling, a blocking TE, K, P, FB, or a mediocre player at another position, so I vote for the raw athlete that checks the boxes physically and has a high ceiling every time. Allen absolutely annihilated the combine and his pro day. Cherry picking the best results here (the vert and broad I don't devalue due to coming from his pro day vs combine....SS was 4.34 instead of 4.18 at combine...it's possible the surface could have impacted that but not much):

6'3" 215, 4.48 40, 38" vert, 10'7" broad, 4.18 SS, 6.64 3-cone. Those are all elite. Across the board. 15 reps for a CB with REALLY long arms (34") is pretty damn good too. 10" hands too. He's a big dude. Athletic. I just hope they can work some magic with him now.


With the right defensive Coordinator, the kid could turn into Richard Sherman
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3564
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chargerbuckeye wrote:
Magnus-Viktor wrote:
Funny to hear these old names like Townsend and McFadden. I hated Townsend at first, mainly because I was absolutely disgusted to see a scrub like him wearing Rod Woodson's jersey, since Woodson is my favorite athlete of all time in any sport and he was also the best all-around DB I've ever seen as well. Townsend was a very mediocre player that lacked the speed and size to be a stud. He is a lot like William Gay really. Subpar athletes that are actually decent due to technique and instincts that grow on you due to reliability over the years.

McFadden was so close to being a stud IMO. It just never quite clicked. You'd see flashes, and he checked all the boxes physically, but it just never materialized as I hoped.

I'm a guy that likes the measurables, especially when it comes to certain positions. CB is the top on that list where I value measurables because I don't want a runt that is constantly giving up the higher passes due to size, or a slow guy that gives up long TDs due to lack of recovery speed. That's why I was all-in on Brian Allen in the mid rounds. At that point, you're either going to get a raw guy with a high ceiling, a blocking TE, K, P, FB, or a mediocre player at another position, so I vote for the raw athlete that checks the boxes physically and has a high ceiling every time. Allen absolutely annihilated the combine and his pro day. Cherry picking the best results here (the vert and broad I don't devalue due to coming from his pro day vs combine....SS was 4.34 instead of 4.18 at combine...it's possible the surface could have impacted that but not much):

6'3" 215, 4.48 40, 38" vert, 10'7" broad, 4.18 SS, 6.64 3-cone. Those are all elite. Across the board. 15 reps for a CB with REALLY long arms (34") is pretty damn good too. 10" hands too. He's a big dude. Athletic. I just hope they can work some magic with him now.


With the right defensive Coordinator, the kid could turn into Richard Sherman


We don't have the right DC. Or DB coach.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 10339
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like every year, Steelers fans hope that some day three (old day 2) pick DB pans out into some sort of gem. And every year, the guy fails to even make the roster.

I believe there is something fundamentally flawed with how they evaluate DB's. Last year, I think they forced the issue because they had to with the Burns and Davis picks. But in general I think the criteria they use to judge DB's is flawed. I think it's perhaps too high of a standard - they are looking for the next Revis or Polamalu when that's simply unrealistic. Could be wrong, obviously. If you will.

I hope Allen becomes the Antonio Brown of the DB corps. But I doubt it.
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warfelg


Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Posts: 3564
Location: Richmond Va
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
It seems like every year, Steelers fans hope that some day three (old day 2) pick DB pans out into some sort of gem. And every year, the guy fails to even make the roster.

I believe there is something fundamentally flawed with how they evaluate DB's. Last year, I think they forced the issue because they had to with the Burns and Davis picks. But in general I think the criteria they use to judge DB's is flawed. I think it's perhaps too high of a standard - they are looking for the next Revis or Polamalu when that's simply unrealistic. Could be wrong, obviously. If you will.

I hope Allen becomes the Antonio Brown of the DB corps. But I doubt it.


100% the bolded. Tomlin and Colbert have on multiple occasions said that their basis for wanting a DB is if they feel he could cover Antonio Brown.

That's too high of a standard IMO. I mean great they have a measuring stick but if even Chris Harris Jr, who didn't give up a TD in 2 years, struggled against Brown, then there's no one coming out of college would have a shot.
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
Jarvis Jones signs with Steelers


Hahahahaha.

Jones' only chance is to go to Tenn. Otherwise he is flipping burgers this fall.
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2631
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't remember who I heard it from; it was one of those Pittsburgh guys but they actually strongly feel like Brian Allen can get early playing time despite his flaws and rawness. They feel like his press coverage is already good enough to land him playing time and for the play-off, this may help a lot against players like Gronkowski.

This is something I thought was actually worth of notice; of course, anything can happen in between from now and later. This was the draft where they intend on keeping ALL the draftees. I have never seen anything like that.

Bottom-line, at least they got an elite athletically player with one pro-ready phase of the game where he is raw everywhere else. This player isn't like any other projects we drafted. I have to say, this was a smart strategy.
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Magnus-Viktor


Joined: 28 Apr 2016
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherman is a 4.60 guy. Allen is a 4.48 guy. Big difference in the caliber of athleticism here. Allen is also 20 lbs heavier. But if he could turn into that caliber of a DB, without relying on getting away with all the grabbing and holding Sherman gets away with, that would be outstanding. Due to his superior speed he might not have to grab/hold as much either.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
Sherman is a 4.60 guy. Allen is a 4.48 guy. Big difference in the caliber of athleticism here. Allen is also 20 lbs heavier. But if he could turn into that caliber of a DB, without relying on getting away with all the grabbing and holding Sherman gets away with, that would be outstanding. Due to his superior speed he might not have to grab/hold as much either.


Quickness is harder to cover rather than speed. Sped is normally straight-line whereas quickness is more sudden change of directions. As a CB, you can stack a WR to slow down his speed. You must have good feet and quick hands to interrupt a quicker WR's rhythm. Due to its simplistic nature, IF Allen rapidly progresses, he could be a nice situational defender as he learns the schemes.
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Magnus-Viktor


Joined: 28 Apr 2016
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld, I agree. The first thing I look for in a CB is quickness and feet. The good ones just have that look about them and how they move. A good example is Trae Waynes. Not a fan, because I don't like his COD and agility, even though he has adequate length and elite speed. On the other hand, I liked Hargreaves a lot, even though he was lacking long speed and size, just because of how he moved. Joe Haden is another perfect example....big Joe Haden fan coming out, but I have to admit I really soured on him after the combine because he looked so sluggish.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned him covering Gronk. That's an ideal thing. Like what I've heard the Cheatriots did with Eric Rowe (another guy I liked and wanted the Steelers to draft). Situational defender who matches up on big guys in specific packages designed just to take advantage of size/athleticism matchups.

But back to the speed thing, 4.48 vs 4.60, when you also have better 3-cone demonstrating better agility and I'm assuming his 10-20 were better too but I don't see them listed. But regardless, he'll have more recovery speed being that much faster overall.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnus-Viktor wrote:
armsteeld, I agree. The first thing I look for in a CB is quickness and feet. The good ones just have that look about them and how they move. A good example is Trae Waynes. Not a fan, because I don't like his COD and agility, even though he has adequate length and elite speed. On the other hand, I liked Hargreaves a lot, even though he was lacking long speed and size, just because of how he moved. Joe Haden is another perfect example....big Joe Haden fan coming out, but I have to admit I really soured on him after the combine because he looked so sluggish.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned him covering Gronk. That's an ideal thing. Like what I've heard the Cheatriots did with Eric Rowe (another guy I liked and wanted the Steelers to draft). Situational defender who matches up on big guys in specific packages designed just to take advantage of size/athleticism matchups.

But back to the speed thing, 4.48 vs 4.60, when you also have better 3-cone demonstrating better agility and I'm assuming his 10-20 were better too but I don't see them listed. But regardless, he'll have more recovery speed being that much faster overall.


I don't see him being able to cover Gronk at least not by himself. The Steelers have a stable of young, talented albeit smaller CBs that are under 5'11. Training camp will not be an accurate way for me to determine their growth but preseason will show us alot.
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Magnus-Viktor


Joined: 28 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could bracket Gronk with a 6'5" LB like Watt and a 6'3" DB like Allen, and have a lot better chance at stopping him than by putting a 5'10" CB on him was my point.
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SMashMouthMike


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see him being able to cover Gronk at least not by himself.


Quote:
But in general I think the criteria they use to judge DB's is flawed. I think it's perhaps too high of a standard - they are looking for the next Revis or Polamalu when that's simply unrealistic. Could be wrong, obviously. If you will.


Quote:
You could bracket Gronk with a 6'5" LB like Watt and a 6'3" DB like Allen, and have a lot better chance at stopping him than by putting a 5'10" CB on him was my point.


I think all these guys are onto it. No way even one HOF caliber player could cover gronk. That's why he is Gronk! The Pats have developed (imo) the perfect qb, and supporting cast, and system to render the steelers' zone off coverage, zone blitz with outside pressure stuff useless. At least the steelers finally recognize this and are trying to draft players that might give that offense a harder time. Our system was being taken apart. It served us very well; it's just time to move on and adapt.
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