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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
I disagree with you. I think the Broncos are just a few pieces away from being elite again. They had the #4 best defense in the league last year and missed the playoffs.

They need some offense in a BIG way. I wouldn't mind the Broncos going all offense this draft. I would go Corey Davis, Evan Engram, OJ Howard, John Ross, CMAC, I would go all offensive line...I would go Mike Williams...yeah...that is what I would do.


Agree to disagree about the top part, but the bottom part I can get on with. We need offensive talent infusion at numerous spots. Key word numerous. And dealing up will limit our ability to address those numerous spots.


I don't want to agree on anything, really. I just want to be right. Which, let's face it, most of the time I am.
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Counselor


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised how high Kiper is on McKenzie.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are not that good this year (very possible), I hope we target a RB early. There's going to be a glut of QBs coming out next year, and unless Paxton Lynch is so god awful it's not even funny, I doubt his leash will be that short. Obviously mock drafts now are not necessarily reflective of the end of the season, but I'm keeping my eyes on Derrius Guice, Nick Chubb, and especially Saquon Barkley.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
If we are not that good this year (very possible), I hope we target a RB early. There's going to be a glut of QBs coming out next year, and unless Paxton Lynch is so god awful it's not even funny, I doubt his leash will be that short. Obviously mock drafts now are not necessarily reflective of the end of the season, but I'm keeping my eyes on Derrius Guice, Nick Chubb, and especially Saquon Barkley.


If he's as good as advertised Barkley seems like he is still likely to go top 10 overall. Elite RB seem to be breaking into the top 10 (don't know that Fournette belonged there if he only is a 2-down horse - being a 3-down back to justify that high a pick IMO).

The QB hype next year is impressive. 3-4 guys (Darnold Rosen Allen - question with Lamar Jackson is if his skill set translates as well to NFL) who were ID'd as better prospects than this past class. As much as Lynch hasn't shown he can be our QBOTF yet we knew he needed time. The price to get a QBOTF this year was nuts. Glad we weren't forced this year; although next year's class looks great a lot can happen. It does leave a great chance to get value elsewhere like you said.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Browns keeping it genius to tank for another year to accumulate their assets to get their choice of QB

When you been drafting hella players, you can afford to make a big trade to get your QB. And that's assuming they aren't gonna pick number 1 again. What took dumb rebuilding NFL GMs this long to figure this out
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
Browns keeping it genius to tank for another year to accumulate their assets to get their choice of QB

When you been drafting hella players, you can afford to make a big trade to get your QB. And that's assuming they aren't gonna pick number 1 again. What took dumb rebuilding NFL GMs this long to figure this out


2 firsts 3 seconds and 2 thirds. And they spent a luxury pick on Kizer still got Garrett, Njoku, Howard Wilson, Caleb Brantley and Peppers. I'm not sold on Peppers but that draft class is really good. They will need a year to develop except Garrett but that only helps them get closer to 1.1. Which no doubt factored in to their picks. They even cut TE Barnidge to tank more for 2018. They clearly want to pick high in 2018, Kizer was their 5th pick (insurance) - nuts.

They have the ammo to trade up as long as they have a top 5 pick. Which seems likely. And imagine if they end up with 1.1 or 1.2 they can use the other picks to add difference makers.

Anyone who criticizes the current FO isn't paying attention. They have a 3-year plan and are committed. It's refreshing to see. Good for them.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
champ11 wrote:
Browns keeping it genius to tank for another year to accumulate their assets to get their choice of QB

When you been drafting hella players, you can afford to make a big trade to get your QB. And that's assuming they aren't gonna pick number 1 again. What took dumb rebuilding NFL GMs this long to figure this out


2 firsts 3 seconds and 2 thirds. And they spent a luxury pick on Kizer still got Garrett, Njoku, Howard Wilson, Caleb Brantley and Peppers. I'm not sold on Peppers but that draft class is really good. They will need a year to develop except Garrett but that only helps them get closer to 1.1. Which no doubt factored in to their picks. They even cut TE Barnidge to tank more for 2018. They clearly want to pick high in 2018, Kizer was their 5th pick (insurance) - nuts.

They have the ammo to trade up as long as they have a top 5 pick. Which seems likely. And imagine if they end up with 1.1 or 1.2 they can use the other picks to add difference makers.

Anyone who criticizes the current FO isn't paying attention. They have a 3-year plan and are committed. It's refreshing to see. Good for them.


And they got a really good player in Jamie Collins w/ a 3rd round pick, which isn't a huge loss with all the picks they have. Beautiful
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thebestever6


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just never was a fan at tanking at the NFL I'm not sure how yiu reverse trend of a losing culture by tanking. Look at the Raiders they were in a brutal spot after 2014, but hit homeruns the next 2 drafts.
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champ11


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
I just never was a fan at tanking at the NFL I'm not sure how yiu reverse trend of a losing culture by tanking. Look at the Raiders they were in a brutal spot after 2014, but hit homeruns the next 2 drafts.


But they are accumulating assets and recognizing that you can't be a good team without a QB. I don't think it's very often that teams actually play the long game in the NFL with accumulating assets. What's the point of taking freakin Mitch Trubisky if you don't like him? Waiting for the next QB class is really smart. And if they end up winning 6 or 7 games? They have a million picks they have accumulated to move up and get one of their guys.
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thebestever6


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
I just never was a fan at tanking at the NFL I'm not sure how yiu reverse trend of a losing culture by tanking. Look at the Raiders they were in a brutal spot after 2014, but hit homeruns the next 2 drafts.


But they are accumulating assets and recognizing that you can't be a good team without a QB. I don't think it's very often that teams actually play the long game in the NFL with accumulating assets. What's the point of taking freakin Mitch Trubisky if you don't like him? Waiting for the next QB class is really smart. And if they end up winning 6 or 7 games? They have a million picks they have accumulated to move up and get one of their guys.


if Sam Darnold or insert name here is Andrew Luck or Peyton it's a great move. But it's hard to reverse a losing culture if the qb struggles you are im the same boat I like the process for NBA teams not NFL
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
champ11 wrote:
thebestever6 wrote:
I just never was a fan at tanking at the NFL I'm not sure how yiu reverse trend of a losing culture by tanking. Look at the Raiders they were in a brutal spot after 2014, but hit homeruns the next 2 drafts.


But they are accumulating assets and recognizing that you can't be a good team without a QB. I don't think it's very often that teams actually play the long game in the NFL with accumulating assets. What's the point of taking freakin Mitch Trubisky if you don't like him? Waiting for the next QB class is really smart. And if they end up winning 6 or 7 games? They have a million picks they have accumulated to move up and get one of their guys.


if Sam Darnold or insert name here is Andrew Luck or Peyton it's a great move. But it's hard to reverse a losing culture if the qb struggles you are im the same boat I like the process for NBA teams not NFL


Normally, that's a fair statement. But again, these aren't a typical Browns FO. They are building the team from the ground up, the right way.

They took the 1.2 pick and their 2016 4th round into the following using only those picks, and then with a 6th/7th from 2016/2017, by making 5 more trades (again, with only the above original team assets), turned that into:

2016

1.15 Corey Coleman WR - starting 2016 WR, their future cornerstone WR guy.
3.82 Shon Coleman RT - now their 2017 RT guy on the inside track (as Cameron Erving still disappointing - pick from another era).
3.101 Cody Kessler - started in 2016, but not their future franchise QB, still a capable backup QB
4.114 Ricardo Louis WR - nothing yet
4.129 Derrick Kindred S - nothing yet
5.145 Jordan Payton WR - nothing yet
5.168 Spencer Drango - swing G for 2017

Given it's only been 1 year, that's already a fair return - it should only get better, if even 1 of those 4 guys from Rd 4-5 actually becomes a 2018+ starter (or 3rd WR).

But that's not even close to the return the Browns got for the 1.2 pick (plus 4th/2017 6th/7th) - there are 4 more key assets the Browns got for 2017-18:


2017

1.25 Jabril Peppers S
2.52 Deshone Kizer QB


2018

HOU 1st
PHI 2nd


So the Browns turned the 1.2, a 4th and 6th/7th (2017) rd picks into 11 players or picks, of which 4-5 are 2017 starters...and a HOU 1st and PHI 2nd still on the way. And that's on top of their other picks - Day 2 2016 yielded 2 DL starters for 2017 (Emmanuel Ogbah & Carl Nassib), where one looks like a future star (Ogbah). Meanwhile, CLE added 1.1 Myles Garrett to be the elite, generational-talent ceiling EDGE, TE David Njoku at 1.29, and then got insane value on Day 3 with CB Howard Wilson Rd 4 and a huge boom-ceiling talent in Caleb Brantley Rd 6, among others (including Peppers at S & Kizer at QB - the genius on the tank philosophy is that Peppers, Kizer & Njoku are all likely 2018+ helpers, and need 2017 to develop - which helps the 2017 tank). When you are a great team you get quality. But the bad teams need both quality and quantity - and the Browns FO have appeared to be able to get both with a single Day 1 pick and a 4th/6th/7th.

What was even more amazing looking at CLE's draft is that Kizer was selected with CLE's fifth 2017 pick - so it was a luxury pick for them, just in case he's actually a franchise QB - then they find their guy a year early. But if Kizer's not a true franchise pick, they will find them in 2018. If we missed on QB with our 2nd rounder, it would be a killer. For CLE, it's literally, oh well, we have 5 top 50 picks next year, and he was our 5th pick this year.

And for 2018, here's CLE's picks in the first 5 rounds:

1, 1 (HOU, from 2017 1.12 pick they got in the 2016 1.2 trade))
2, 2 (PHI from 2016 1.2 trade), 2 (HOU - Osweiler $ relief trade)
3
4, 4 (CAR)
5

If they finish 1.1 or 1.2, they can use all those other picks on areas to further improve their roster. If they "only" get a top 5-6 pick, they have so much ammo they can get definitely get one of the big 2-3 QB's (and with 7 teams drafting their QBOTF the past 2 years, and JimmyG & Cousins hitting the FA market in all likelihood <unless NE locks JimmyG in for the future>), the chances that one of the worst teams won't find a CLE pick package something they can't pass up, well, CLE sure looks like they have the ammo if they need it - and the way they are building, they're still a decent shot to finish 1.1 or 1.2 (NYJ & SF sure look their main competitors approach-wise, given they are going with Josh McCown and Brian Hoyer as their starting QB's Shocked)

This is a team that's doing it the right way. They also still have 60M in cap space, and that's after they added Jamie Collins at ILB, Kevin Zeitler at RG, and JC Tretter at C (to join Joe Thomas/Joel Bitonio to anchor that OL).

Lots of cap space, lots of young FA's now signed at the peak of their career, and lots of young elite ceiling draft talent in 2016 that's already contributing, and likely 5 picks in the top 60, and 8 in the top 110. The beauty of their approach is they are accumulating young talent, and giving them time to develop so next year's QB (or Kizer, if he does hit - I don't think he will, but CLE spending their 5th pick in their pocket, I get why they did it) actually has a talented team to work with around him - 1 year to get their OL in shape, and a D that will suddenly have actual talent at all the positions, and a WR/TE combo to rely on (only miss IMO was not retaining Terrelle Pryor instead of Kenny Britt, but man, it's hard to hit on everything).

If the 1.1 or 1.2 pick is the next Andrew Luck/Jameis Winston of course it's a great move. But either way what CLE has done with one single Rd 1 pick and a complete commitment to rebuild (so their other picks are high), even if it means they literally suck for the first 2 years of the new Hue Jackson/Sashi Brown regime, it's refreshing - because that type of talent infusion from 2016-2018 drafts (Brown got to inherit the 2016 picks), is just unheard of in this cap era. It's not even crazy to suggest that CLE could just pay the $ and go FA and get their QB next year. That's the beauty of their rebuild - it's young talent, picks AND cap space to spare.

Plus, they're not just relying on the draft - trading for Collins, signing FA's, locking up their young guys, all the right moves as well. Plus that genius use of cap $ they had to spend and getting a 2018 HOU 2nd when it could be a key piece in trading for their QBOTF....better than spending 15-16M on a guy who won't change your W-L record by more than 1W in 2017-18, and then be gone, and not a factor when you are ready to contend.

Again, any criticism being thrown CLE's way for how they are rebuilding, well, people aren't paying attention. These are not your Dad's hapless Browns. Full respect to Sashi Brown & their FO. Cool
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This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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BroncosFan2010


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleveland isn't tanking this year in any way.

Refusing to overpay for a crap Free Agent QB like Glennon and refusing to overdraft a mediocre talent like Trub isn't 'tanking'.

They understood that the team was talent devoid at all levels, they identified the insane strength of the 2018 QB class and they made a smart, level headed decision.

That's not tanking, that's running a franchise the right way.
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Cleveland isn't tanking this year in any way.

Refusing to overpay for a crap Free Agent QB like Glennon and refusing to overdraft a mediocre talent like Trub isn't 'tanking'.

They understood that the team was talent devoid at all levels, they identified the insane strength of the 2018 QB class and they made a smart, level headed decision.

That's not tanking, that's running a franchise the right way.


Absolutely fair assessments on the 2017 vs. 2018 QB class - CLE didn't pass on QB until Kizer for tanking reasons alone - the value simply wasn't there. The depth of the prices teams had to pay for guys who were just as, if not more uncertain than Lynch was heading into 2016's draft, was staggering.

But tanking-wise, while passing on QB probably wasn't for tanking reasons alone, I'd point out that CLE cutting Gary Barnidge, and going with David Njoku as their TE, while absolutely the right 2018+ call, is for sure going to help CLE's chances to get an early pick by being worse-off in 2017 at that position (year 1 TE's need time anyways, and Njoku is really raw - just at age 20, his ceiling is insane). And CLE did decide to draft early Rd 1-2 guys who will take longer to contribute this year rather than other plug-and-play guys (with the exception of Myles Garrett, obv. - Peppers is one guy I'm not sold on where they took him, but he fits their 2018+ ETA, huge-ceiling profile). Same with spending $ on getting a 2018 2nd rounder from HOU instead of getting a FA who is JAG now. Now all of the above decisions are IMO absolutely the right moves - because CLE doesn't have a chance to do anything this year (and even 2018 is a stretch with a year 1 rookie QB) - their long-term health is better served with those moves.... but it just so happens that those moves also helps CLE get an even higher 2018 draft slot. Win-win.
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This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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thebestever6


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleveland has added talent I can't argue with that , but in my opinion they're still in purgatory as a franchise. There's no guarantees that they pick in the top 10 and there's no guarantee that they land a franchise qb.

It seems like they're a team trying to increase lottery chances, but if confident in their scouting they'd stay,put and take Wentz.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebestever6 wrote:
Cleveland has added talent I can't argue with that , but in my opinion they're still in purgatory as a franchise. There's no guarantees that they pick in the top 10 and there's no guarantee that they land a franchise qb.

It seems like they're a team trying to increase lottery chances, but if confident in their scouting they'd stay,put and take Wentz.


I don't know if they can pick Wentz considering that he was selected by the Eagles in last year's draft. But, I guess anything is possible.
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