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Pick #56 - Obi Melifonwu (S)
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 4832
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
TiberiusRising wrote:
imo, Hayden>Carrie last season.




Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 17002
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:

Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.


Not sure there's any truth to that. Hayden had his best season but it was still not very good. Carrie wasn't perfect either. He was solid and he wasn't flagged every game.
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THE MAD STORK


Joined: 07 Aug 2012
Posts: 911
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:

Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.


Not sure there's any truth to that. Hayden had his best season but it was still not very good. Carrie wasn't perfect either. He was solid and he wasn't flagged every game.


+1

I have no Clue how people can still argue that Hayden was better.. He literally got flagged like 3-4 times a game..and if you really go back and watch..and watch Hayden on every play..I would cringe watching him cover, because I thought he was going to get flagged on like 50% of his snaps because he holds WAY to obvious.
I'm not saying Carrie is great..I'm not advocating he should be a 1 or a 2.. all I'm saying is if we got 2 players like Carrie as our 3rd and 4th corner. We are doing pretty good. The guys a 7th rounder. Comes in an plays Slot, plays outside, can play safety..all at least at a solid level. Probably gets payed less than a million a year..and I think he's better than Sean Smith overall. Yes smith is better for bigger slower WRs; but overall Carrie matches up better with most WRs.

I CAN think of plays where Carrie got beat last year..he got beat against TY Hilton and Emanuel Sanders..in one on one coverage with no safety help. I ask you all..how many Corners can cover these 2 elite WRs with no safety help; for most of the game, and not get beat deep once? Before Hayden got hurt, Carrie also struggled coming off the bench the beginning of the year..I realize this. I'm not naive to it. But once he had his chance to start and get his rhythm back as a starter, he played IMO better than any corner we had after Hayden went down the second half of the year.

He also had HUGE games. I can't think of them all, but I KNOW he played huge against KC. Please go back and watch that game. He did great against the colts (minus one play), he did great against denver, Texans, and SD. And he RARELY got flagged.

I hope we can upgrade Carrie..that be great. But every great team has players like Carrie who play solid, and don't Cost much. We can't pay every player $5+ million. We need players like Carrie at multiple positions.
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 4832
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:

Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.


Not sure there's any truth to that. Hayden had his best season but it was still not very good. Carrie wasn't perfect either. He was solid and he wasn't flagged every game.


If you look past the first two games (where Hayden and all 11 starters were obliterated) Hayden was actually a little above average at the nickel spot. Still nothing special by any means and not worth re-signing but his coverage was better than Carrie. Carrie gets abused by any solid slot WR.

I'd rather keep Carrie over Hayden for Carries versatility any day of the week, just saying Hayden out performed him in the coverage department last year. Really not even a bold statement. Just during my 6 years on here you have your sensitive people that will never accept any criticism about certain players and managers no matter what without getting offended which is fine. Doesn't bother me, bothers them.
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THE MAD STORK


Joined: 07 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another player I want to see continue to grow is Dexter McDonald, I thought he had an extremely improved and good preseason. I want to see him continue to progress. Maybe challenge for the 3rd or 4th corner spot and find the field a lot more this year.
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THE MAD STORK


Joined: 07 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:

Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.


Not sure there's any truth to that. Hayden had his best season but it was still not very good. Carrie wasn't perfect either. He was solid and he wasn't flagged every game.


If you look past the first two games (where Hayden and all 11 starters were obliterated) Hayden was actually a little above average at the nickel spot. Still nothing special by any means and not worth re-signing but his coverage was better than Carrie. Carrie gets abused by any solid slot WR.

I'd rather keep Carrie over Hayden for Carries versatility any day of the week, just saying Hayden out performed him in the coverage department last year. Really not even a bold statement. Just during my 6 years on here you have your sensitive people that will never accept any criticism about certain players and managers no matter what without getting offended which is fine. Doesn't bother me, bothers them.


Don't flatter yourself, no ones getting offended off what anyone is saying on a raider forum..especially about Hayden > Carrie.. more just baffles me.

But I'm just carrying conversation. Friendly debate..really just posting cause I'm bored in a seminar.
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Dessie


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:

Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.


Not sure there's any truth to that. Hayden had his best season but it was still not very good. Carrie wasn't perfect either. He was solid and he wasn't flagged every game.


If you look past the first two games (where Hayden and all 11 starters were obliterated) Hayden was actually a little above average at the nickel spot. Still nothing special by any means and not worth re-signing but his coverage was better than Carrie. Carrie gets abused by any solid slot WR.

I'd rather keep Carrie over Hayden for Carries versatility any day of the week, just saying Hayden out performed him in the coverage department last year. Really not even a bold statement. Just during my 6 years on here you have your sensitive people that will never accept any criticism about certain players and managers no matter what without getting offended which is fine. Doesn't bother me, bothers them.


It is delusional at best to suggest Hayden was better than Carrie last season.

Quote:
Raiders cornerback T.J. Carrie replaced D.J. Hayden at slot cornerback in Week 12 and never looked back. Carrie earned a higher overall grade than Amerson despite seeing significantly less snaps.

Hayden, on the other hand, met expectations, as he again finished among the worst cornerbacks in the NFL.


Quote:
Since taking over for injured slot corner D.J. Hayden in Week 12, Carrie has stepped up significantly in the Raiders’ defense. He has now finished as the Raiders’ highest graded defender in two of his five starts and second in another
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raidr4life


Joined: 10 Jan 2010
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Location: Fresno, California
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrie was better than Hayden all day, and I was pulling for Hayden, and thought he was improved, but the flags were killer, once Carrie got in there, I didn't see many bad plays by Carrie.
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Mr Raider


Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 1752
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing DJ had on Carrie was speed. And even then a lot of the time it didn't do much good because while he was more apt to match up with them he would grab or fail to turn his head around and get flagged which can at times be even worse than getting beat because you don't even force the receiver to catch the ball. TJ got roasted at times by TY, and Ginn got over the top, though there wasn't a safety in sight. That's an area Conley can DEFINITELY contribute day one, we don't have a current corner on the roster that can hang one on one vs speed demons. Conley has the deep speed, recovery speed, length, awareness (breath of fresh air to see a first round pick locate the damn ball), and ball skills to line up one on one against the Hilton's, Ginn's, etc of the world. And we have a few of those guys in our division.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: Lehigh Valley
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hayden was a very good tackler. I remember the int against KC that Carrie had, that was a great play. He recognized the formation and knew where smith was going and jumped the route. He's a smart player.
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dessie wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
BayRaider wrote:

Go back and watch the games and read the threads.. Hayden was better in coverage than Carrie last year. People have a short memory. And also want to assume Carrie was better because we let DJ go but's that's not true.


Not sure there's any truth to that. Hayden had his best season but it was still not very good. Carrie wasn't perfect either. He was solid and he wasn't flagged every game.


If you look past the first two games (where Hayden and all 11 starters were obliterated) Hayden was actually a little above average at the nickel spot. Still nothing special by any means and not worth re-signing but his coverage was better than Carrie. Carrie gets abused by any solid slot WR.

I'd rather keep Carrie over Hayden for Carries versatility any day of the week, just saying Hayden out performed him in the coverage department last year. Really not even a bold statement. Just during my 6 years on here you have your sensitive people that will never accept any criticism about certain players and managers no matter what without getting offended which is fine. Doesn't bother me, bothers them.


It is delusional at best to suggest Hayden was better than Carrie last season.

Quote:
Raiders cornerback T.J. Carrie replaced D.J. Hayden at slot cornerback in Week 12 and never looked back. Carrie earned a higher overall grade than Amerson despite seeing significantly less snaps.

Hayden, on the other hand, met expectations, as he again finished among the worst cornerbacks in the NFL.


Quote:
Since taking over for injured slot corner D.J. Hayden in Week 12, Carrie has stepped up significantly in the Raiders’ defense. He has now finished as the Raiders’ highest graded defender in two of his five starts and second in another


A lot of Haydens grade was probably Week 1 and 2 when we faced the #1 total offense Falcons and #2 total offense Saints. Carrie was the #4 CB in these games and didn't see much action.
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drfrey13


Joined: 14 Oct 2010
Posts: 1432
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just have a couple things to add.

1) Although Hayden did get flagged a lot and some was well deserved he did get a lot of phantom calls and/or flagged for contact that is normally not called.

2) Carrie did play better than Hayden since they came in the league.

3) If Detroit runs more zone coverage Hayden will look better than Carrie this year. Myself and a few others in the forum have pointed out that Hayden was drafted when we ran more of a zone coverage scheme and should improve with a scheme change. If Detroit runs more man then you might see him run into the same problems.

Finally the man was a class act and I will root for him to do well no matter where he plays. Coming back from that injury has impressed me but think how he got injured played a role in his inability/unwillingness to turn his head around with the ball in the air. For how our team is setup I would take Carrie 10 times out of 10 though.
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