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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3309
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.


Bingo.

Look at Joe Flacco man... can't do a damned thing without a top 10 defense. Franchise QBs are nice, but you need a team around them.


That doesn't really hold much weight. JJ played 3 games last year. while putting up under 10 tackles. They made the playoffs without him.

If anything, it shows that even the arguably most important and talented defensive player is replaceable. Not that QBs have less value.

Also Brees has won a Super Bowl with garbage defenses year in and year out, Luck carried an overrated Colts to the AFC Championship, etc.


Bro, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl, they had the #7 ranked defense and #11 ranked offense.

Brees had his lowest rating in 9 seasons that year.


Are you looking at postseason? lol Seriously though. They were 20th in points against and gave up the 8th most yards in the 2009 season. 2010 Super Bowl was from the 2009 season.

Brees also had a 109.6 QBR, his career best...

They've been in the top 10 scoring 9 out of the last 11 years. Top 6 in years EVERY year, was first in yards 6 times, etc.


You're absolutely right, I was looking at 2010, my bad!


You're good bud, I've done the same thing a time or two... this month. lol
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AZBearsFan


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 13187
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
G08 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
If you draft Watson I think Pace gets a guaranteed 3 years

2017-Glennon
2018-Watson's first year starting with growing pains
2019-Watson's 2nd season would be huge for him


Pace is under contract through the 19-20 season.

I don't think it's a huge stretch for him to build this defense, give Glennon a shot for 2017, and then if he sucks go after your QB in 2018 and unleash him in 2019.


5 years before we see his hand picked QB hit the field.

He will need a contract extension before then.

Are you comfortable extending him without seeing what he has done with his hand picked QB?

Are you comfortable allowing him to mortgage future picks to move up and get the QB he wants?


I'm just saying, don't be surprised if he wants to build the defense and offense for 2017, roll with Glennon/Sanchez, and if Glennon bombs he can draft his QB in the 2018 draft and either start the kid then, or give him a year to simmer and then unleash him in his (Pace's) final year under contract.

This also gives him the ability to fire Fox after this season, hire someone new, and let THAT head coach handpick his QB.


We are in a position this season to potentially pick whichever QB we want. Not get the 3rd QB or the one other teams pass on.

That is an opportunity.


Or we wait till 2018 and hear all about how Pace "tried" to trade up for Rosen but couldn't.

This really highlights for me an issue I have with the "Wait for next year's QBs" crowd specifically while we are picking at 3. Does anyone figure us in 2017 for less than 5 wins or more than 8 wins? Pretty much where we fall. In that scenario we are picking somewhere between like 8 and 18 in which case we aren't getting QB1. We MIGHT get QB3 without mortgaging the draft. Maybe.

In that light, we can't be valuing our QBOC in this year's draft against next year's QBOC. We need to be valuing this year's QBOC against the "top QB" who shows some warts next year during the season and leading up to the draft while remaining a top QB prospect (the 2018 Watson). Or, we're getting next year's 1-year wonder with the same inexperience questions (the 2018 Trubisky). We aren't then getting a better QB prospect in 2018 than 2017 - we are getting the same caliber prospect as this year's QB1 a year further down the road. For a team trying to be on the upswing that just doesn't make sense to me.

If next year is a 3rd rebuild year and most think it probably is then would you rather go into the 2018 offseason with your future QB ready to go but still needing a safety or 5T, or vise versa? Provided whoever you pick hits (and all players are drafted under the assumption they'll be successful), which one gets you closer to the championship sooner? I think it's without question the route that puts the QB on the roster now, and if you happen to catch a Russell Wilson over Matt Flynn situation out of it then that's all the better. I also think any QB we take at 3 plays once he's proven at least an equal to Glennon, which isn't exactly a tall mountain to climb (insert Mike Glennon height joke here).

When everyone is already setting their 2018 draft class QB board it should be noted that Mitch Trubisky was not even mentioned in our 2017 draft thread until October 15th last year and now he may well be the 2nd pick in the draft next week. Meanwhile there was ample talk of Chad Kelly in the 2nd when he may not even be drafted, Kaaya in the 1st and Kiser 1st overall. We think we know so much but we don't really know much of anything about what next year's class will be once it's actually here.
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Superman(DH23)


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah112 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Because common sense means that you cannot bank on Glennon being good enough to keep you job.

Because the stud CB won't do anything for us if Glennon flops. Ask JJ Watt.


JJ Watt's made the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Meanwhile franchise QBs like Brees, Luck, and Rivers were sitting home.
You're joking right? The Texans may have had the best team in the NFL 2 years ago and couldn't win a playoff game bc of QB play. So much so that they went out and signed Brock Osweiller thinking he was their QB answer (spoiler alert, he wasn't). We've been the great team with all the pieces except QB before. Where did that get us?
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3. Deshaun Watson - QB
36. Evan Engram - WR
67. Desmond King - CB/FS
111. Carlos Watkins - 5T
117. Jordan Leggett - TE

Thoughts?
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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Nads786


Joined: 11 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a blend, you need good to great QB play and good to great defensive play. The ratio depends on the QB and defense. In other words if you are Flacco you need a great defense, if you are Rodgers you need a good defense.
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3309
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
3. Deshaun Watson - QB
36. Evan Engram - WR
67. Desmond King - CB/FS
111. Carlos Watkins - 5T
117. Jordan Leggett - TE

Thoughts?


Chicago Bears' 2017 draft class - Clemson. Lol

My only concern is Leggett. His effort goes up and down sporadically, like Bennett's did for us his last year. If he can run hot consistently (like vs Bama) I love it.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
3. Deshaun Watson - QB
36. Evan Engram - WR
67. Desmond King - CB/FS
111. Carlos Watkins - 5T
117. Jordan Leggett - TE

Thoughts?


Chicago Bears' 2017 draft class - Clemson. Lol

My only concern is Leggett. His effort goes up and down sporadically, like Bennett's did for us his last year. If he can run hot consistently (like vs Bama) I love it.


Bleh, good point. Kick out Watkins and replace with Jaleel Johnson or Nazair Jones.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3309
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
3. Deshaun Watson - QB
36. Evan Engram - WR
67. Desmond King - CB/FS
111. Carlos Watkins - 5T
117. Jordan Leggett - TE

Thoughts?


Chicago Bears' 2017 draft class - Clemson. Lol

My only concern is Leggett. His effort goes up and down sporadically, like Bennett's did for us his last year. If he can run hot consistently (like vs Bama) I love it.


Bleh, good point. Kick out Watkins and replace with Jaleel Johnson or Nazair Jones.


Lol. If they produce IDC where they went to school at. I'm a Gator fan but if they play well for Chicago I'll take FSU, Miami and Bama players all day.
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Chewtoy


Joined: 16 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are building a franchise, the FIRST piece you should add is a Qb and the LAST piece you should add is a RB. Defenses and other offensive positions come somewhere in between. There are a lot of reasons for this:

1.) Qb's are typically protected more than any other position, and as a result they have longer careers. The best Qb's can play until 40. The best Linemen and Rb's tend to fall apart fast at ~30.

2.) Rb's and defenses are fragile. That is obvious for Rb's (they touch the ball and get tackled by big men a lot every week). For Defenses it isn't as obvious, but it is still very true. The reason is that there are 11 pieces and ANY of them degrading reduces the capability of the defense. Think about the best defenses in the last 30 years - 85 bears, the 01 ravens, some of the Urlacher Bears teams - They all had a 3-4 year window. Timing that window with the development of a Qb (which is required even if you have an elite defense is WAY tougher than developing a D after you have a Qb.

3.) because of the development curve for Qb's and their influence over games, teams are likely to stay bad (and continue to draft high) for a while after finding a Qb. The opposite is true for finding elite Defenses and Rb's - they tend to make an immediate impact, immediately improving the team and actually decreasing the odds that you will be in a position to draft an elite Qb.


So really the "which is more important" question is totally irrelevant. The answer is that both are important. Critical even. However, it is still smartest to draft the Qb first - it maximizes your window of opportunity.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
3. Deshaun Watson - QB
36. Evan Engram - WR
67. Desmond King - CB/FS
111. Carlos Watkins - 5T
117. Jordan Leggett - TE

Thoughts?


Very nice (Borat voice)
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deep down how many people would be a little upset if the Bears take a S or 5 technique at 3?

I would be happy that we add a talented player, but disappointed that the Bears are riding or dying with Glennon.
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G08


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Deep down how many people would be a little upset if the Bears take a S or 5 technique at 3?

I would be happy that we add a talented player, but disappointed that the Bears are riding or dying with Glennon.


I can't really get on board with a S at 3, honestly. I would understand, but I wouldn't love it.

5T I'd be happy with... I think Allen solves a lot of problems for us and gives Bullard another year to get stronger/thicker.

More and more I want to trade down to 8, take the best QB available, and then wheel and deal with our 3 2nd rounders (or stay put and take the wonderful talent that will be staring us in the face).
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft


"I thought it was a stroke of genius. You give [Pace] an A++++ for the move to get Trubisky. That was magnificient." - Bill Polian
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Jamal Adams, I like Jonathan Allen, I like Malik Hooker and I like Marshon Lattimore.

But I would be disappointed if the Bears did not take the oppurunity to pick a QB, especially if they are all available.

You can tell me that Trubisky has flaws and I can tell you that Jonathan Allen plays 5 technique, is a limited athlete and has had shoulders.

You can tell me that Watson can't do something and I can tell you that Hooker is injured and misses tackles and plays safety.
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mikee


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be fine with
Allen
Lattimore
Adams
Hooker

or Trubisky/Watson/Mahomes

From the outside, only having access to game film I think there is justification for taking anyone of those seven players.

But we don't have access to the medicals on Allen, Lattimore or Hooker. And we don't have the opportunity to sit down and get to know the leadership, commitment and intelligence of the QBs. If they go outside of this group I would question the front office.

I would prefer they trade down. I almost always prefer a trade down though.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My dream scenario

1. QB
2. OT Garrett Bolles, think this gives us the 2nd best line in football.
3. S Marcus Maye
4. CB William Howard
4. DE Nazair Jones
5. WR
7. OLB
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