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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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Location: Hashtag BirdCity
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reuben Foster apparently had a diluted sample at the combine, which the NFL treats as a failed test.

You can scratch him off our board for #16. We did take Jernigan in round 2 after a similar issue (IIRC) so maybe if he slips to our 2.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I don't think it affects his stock all that much, at least for the Ravens. Especially since it was a diluted sample and not an outright fail. If he was an option at 16 before this news came out he's probably still an option 16 even after this news came out. Jernigan did have a very similar situation and he fell a little bit although I don't think his stock was ever going to be higher than the very end of the first round anyways.

But if it did take him off of Baltimore's board at 16 I wouldn't complain...

Some smoke floating around about Jacksonville taking Cam Robinson at 4. I mean, they need a tackle and Coughlin likes building through the trenches but man that would be an absolute shocker. Also a wonderful thing for the Ravens. Laughing
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racoona


Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 128
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
To be honest I don't think it affects his stock all that much, at least for the Ravens. Especially since it was a diluted sample and not an outright fail. If he was an option at 16 before this news came out he's probably still an option 16 even after this news came out. Jernigan did have a very similar situation and he fell a little bit although I don't think his stock was ever going to be higher than the very end of the first round anyways.

But if it did take him off of Baltimore's board at 16 I wouldn't complain...

Some smoke floating around about Jacksonville taking Cam Robinson at 4. I mean, they need a tackle and Coughlin likes building through the trenches but man that would be an absolute shocker. Also a wonderful thing for the Ravens. Laughing


I like Cam, but wow! They can have him at 4th. That could even help us land either Williams or Davis.

I do agree w/ your initial comment about not wanting to trade up. I really like the depth of this draft. I don't have a "guy," and usually at this point, I'd already be hoping we secure a player or two. I don't want us using our first 4 picks to trade up. I would highly consider using our 4th round pick to trade up from our 2nd or 3rd pick to try and secure a better player though.

Man, if the Browns use their 1st and 2nd round picks correctly, the AFC North is going to be fun to watch.
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
Lattimore has had the issues with his harmstrings since high school and the issues has caused him to have surgery on them. To me, it sounds like they are worse than the issues with Campanaro, and while he has been able to see the field, he has never been fully healthy,


Yeah, I know. Just love the idea of Baltimore being able to take the top (or second depending on how much you like Conley) rated cornerback in the draft. Lattimore stands out even in a tremendous draft class at that position. But like I said before prospects that have chronic injury issues aren't very appealing to me. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place on that one. It still doesn't seem likely that Marshon drops quite that far though so the Ravens shouldn't have to make that decision.

I believe the deadline for private visits ended yesterday. There weren't any updates for the walterfootball list, but DraftAce (Ryan McCrystal) has a visits tracker page and there are 27 of them listed. They are:

Darius Victor

Corey Davis
John Ross
Tim White
Mike Williams
DeAngelo Yancey

Connor Bozick
Cam Robinson
Darrell Williams

Tyus Bowser
Takkarist McKinley
Derek Rivers
Tim Williams
Jordan Willis

Caleb Brantley
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Malik McDowell
Chris Wormley

Reuben Foster
Marquel Lee
Raekwon McMillan
Haason Reddick

William Likely
Kevin King

Malik Golden
Josh Jones
Jabrill Peppers

I'm pretty sure Likely would fall under the local prospects provision so that's only 26 "official" draft visits. Would be nice to know what the other 4 were. DraftAce is pretty solid with stuff too so I trust the list. At least as much as I would anything from walterfootball.

Still seems like the Ravens are in prime position to draft a wide receiver at 16 if they don't trade back. Looks as if they're doing a lot of homework on quality pass-rushing prospects as well. McDowell remains the most interesting name on that list in my opinion.
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not very high om McDowell, but I also put a lot of emphasis on character and guys who wants to play and not just because they are good at it.

While that is some of the hardest stuff to evaluate for us who can't see interviews and stuff like, McDowell seem to me to like a guy I wouldn't trust.

Basically I want people who wants to be on the field and in the film room and who can stay on the field.

That eliminates the most injury prone players, the guys with lack of passion of the game and lack of will to put in the hard work and ofc the idiots who undress and flee from their car because they see red and blue flashing lights.


(If we can get Lattimore at 16, I believe we should take the chance)
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It got paged yesterday or the day before but I did write a bit about McDowell:

Quote:
So every year I usually try and hype up the top Michigan State prospect. This time around it's clearly Malik McDowell, and the Ravens have even brought him in for a visit. It's hard to feel good about making a great case though. Make no mistake about it his natural talent, frame, and athleticism are absolutely elite. Also has plus strength. But it's his head that should worry everybody. He didn't take to coaching well at Michigan State and his technique and fundamentals are a mess as the result of it. That didn't stop Malik from making plays on the field but also left you wanting so much more. Really makes you question just how much he really wants it, which is a pretty important facet when talking about this kind of investment.

If the Ravens, or any team, draft him they have to be supremely confident about breaking through his ego and being able to teach/develop him. I actually could see Baltimore being fairly high on McDowell because he fits the mold of an elite talent that might (and probably will) drop to them in the first round. And Cullen does seem competent. If Malik was properly developed and a willing learner he would be the clear #2 pick in this class behind Garret. Myles is even more of a freak at a more impactful position. But man I wouldn't feel great about Baltimore making that move. Doesn't address one of the big, obvious needs (offensive line, wide receiver, and edge rusher) although that doesn't exactly stop the front office from doing things.


Yeah, even as a Michigan State fan I'm pretty leery about Malik. Really interesting for sure and a gamble that could pay off massively but the risk is a bit too high for my tastes. Now if we're talking about the 47th pick...
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Danand


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
It got paged yesterday or the day before but I did write a bit about McDowell:

Quote:
So every year I usually try and hype up the top Michigan State prospect. This time around it's clearly Malik McDowell, and the Ravens have even brought him in for a visit. It's hard to feel good about making a great case though. Make no mistake about it his natural talent, frame, and athleticism are absolutely elite. Also has plus strength. But it's his head that should worry everybody. He didn't take to coaching well at Michigan State and his technique and fundamentals are a mess as the result of it. That didn't stop Malik from making plays on the field but also left you wanting so much more. Really makes you question just how much he really wants it, which is a pretty important facet when talking about this kind of investment.

If the Ravens, or any team, draft him they have to be supremely confident about breaking through his ego and being able to teach/develop him. I actually could see Baltimore being fairly high on McDowell because he fits the mold of an elite talent that might (and probably will) drop to them in the first round. And Cullen does seem competent. If Malik was properly developed and a willing learner he would be the clear #2 pick in this class behind Garret. Myles is even more of a freak at a more impactful position. But man I wouldn't feel great about Baltimore making that move. Doesn't address one of the big, obvious needs (offensive line, wide receiver, and edge rusher) although that doesn't exactly stop the front office from doing things.


Yeah, even as a Michigan State fan I'm pretty leery about Malik. Really interesting for sure and a gamble that could pay off massively but the risk is a bit too high for my tastes. Now if we're talking about the 47th pick...


Well this is it, if the light was turned on, we would talk about him a lot more.

Instead everybody are wondering, how they can transform the flashes of brilliance to a consistent effort. And who are willing to take that chance/risk.

I'm usually torn when it comes to my approach, as I tend to favor the blue collar guys, the hard workers who might win more by effort and will rather than their physical skillset. With those guys, you usually get a whole lot of solid guys but it is rare they turn into playmakers, and we can all agree we lack playmakers.

The thing is, that when the blue collar hard working guys also have elite physical skillsets, they go high and the draft and we usually pick outside their draft range, so we have to find them later and thats where we might have to gamble more, than I would like.

Thats why I am not opposed to look toward Tim Williams or a SPARQ freak in the 2. round. or a player who was some sort of other question, which makes him fall.
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racoona


Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most of us would like to keep both our 3rd round picks, but would you give up one of them for a particular player (in order to move up in the 2nd round)?

I honestly don't know what I would feel if we pick McDowell in the 1st. We are really deep in the d-line. He has questionable character/passion. However, his ceiling is tremendous. I doubt the Ravens will be in the position to draft someone w/ that talent in the near future. If there's a scale, it might tip slightly towards curious/excited instead of disappointment.
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Danand


Joined: 12 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

racoona wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
To be honest I don't think it affects his stock all that much, at least for the Ravens. Especially since it was a diluted sample and not an outright fail. If he was an option at 16 before this news came out he's probably still an option 16 even after this news came out. Jernigan did have a very similar situation and he fell a little bit although I don't think his stock was ever going to be higher than the very end of the first round anyways.

But if it did take him off of Baltimore's board at 16 I wouldn't complain...

Some smoke floating around about Jacksonville taking Cam Robinson at 4. I mean, they need a tackle and Coughlin likes building through the trenches but man that would be an absolute shocker. Also a wonderful thing for the Ravens. Laughing


I like Cam, but wow! They can have him at 4th. That could even help us land either Williams or Davis.

I do agree w/ your initial comment about not wanting to trade up. I really like the depth of this draft. I don't have a "guy," and usually at this point, I'd already be hoping we secure a player or two. I don't want us using our first 4 picks to trade up. I would highly consider using our 4th round pick to trade up from our 2nd or 3rd pick to try and secure a better player though.

Man, if the Browns use their 1st and 2nd round picks correctly, the AFC North is going to be fun to watch.


The last time the Browns had two 1. round picks, they chose players who are now already out of the league. They might look at the history and think "oh, we didn't pick a QB with our 1. pick and look what it got us + that Weeden guy was horrible, we have to pick a QB at #1".

Then they pick a 2. round talent in Trubisky and pick some bust to come at #12 and bam, the are not to be reckoned with.

While I am on the Corey Davis bandwagon, I still see so much more reason to draft an oline. That is a position group, where we said farewell to two starters. Our young guard is coming off injury, our older better guard are going to have surgery and our 1. round left tackle also struggled with injuries for half of a season. None of the guys we had as backups could force their way into the starting lineup.

We have so many options who can catch the football, and while none of them are top tier players, it should be enough to have a decent passing game. That won't happen though if our opponents don't respect our running game, which an upgrade at oline should help with.

A Cam Robinson/Forest Lamp would make a lot of sense. A receiver like Taywan Taylor in the 3-4 round/a Ryan Switzer in the 4-5 round would make a lot of sense.
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Danand


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

racoona wrote:
I think most of us would like to keep both our 3rd round picks, but would you give up one of them for a particular player (in order to move up in the 2nd round)?

I honestly don't know what I would feel if we pick McDowell in the 1st. We are really deep in the d-line. He has questionable character/passion. However, his ceiling is tremendous. I doubt the Ravens will be in the position to draft someone w/ that talent in the near future. If there's a scale, it might tip slightly towards curious/excited instead of disappointment.


As everybody seems to agree, this year there could easily be 50 different players with 1. round grades and a 100 with 2. round grades. That ofc means that a 1-2 round prospect is bound to fall and I could see us move up in the draft.

Also, with so much talent, I think we should be careful with players who has some significant issues. But at some point the McDowells and Tim Williams represents great value and if they are there in the 3. round, we should pounce on them.
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DreamKid


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get Pernell McPhee vibes off of Malik McDowell, he can play edge, 5 tech, NT. Really any down or rush position. He's a special athlete.

Number of players that visited or interviewed and were either picked up as an UDFA or drafted each year-

2011: 2, Jimmy Smith Torrey Smith

2012: 2, Gino Gradkowski, Justin Tucker

2013: 1, Matt Elam

2014: 4, Michael Campanaro, C.J. Mosley, Keith Wenning, Terrance West

2015: 4, Robert Myers, Tray Walker, Breshad Perriman, Maxx Williams

2016: 4, Ronnie Stanley, Kenneth Dixon, Alex Lewis, Tavon Young

Numbers could be wrong but it's what I found. The 1st round pick was met with in some capacity every year except for 2012 obviously when we didn't have one.

Taco Charlton is still the easy pick for me, length, motor, bend, technique. He isn't overly twitchy or explosive and doesn't have an elite or even higher level get off at times, but if he did have those traits we wouldn't have a shot at him at pick 16. When it comes to edge rushers if you're outside the top 10 you aren't getting players that don't need work(projects) or possess some less than elite athletic traits. He has great short area quickness, can play up or down, owns a good anchor he won't get washed out often and makes plays against the run. He will excel here in Baltimore and his best football is in front of him. We need a new base end to build upon and I think he'd be a great pick. Get him around Suggs, get him with our coaches, get him with our team identity and history and I know he will become a fan favorite perennial double digit sack player. The team can't build a dominating pass or run game in one offseason but we can build an elite defense and getting another true do it all edge player would go a long way.

If the Raven's draft strategy really and truly is BPA then is there anyway Foster won't be the pick if he's there? Not to mention that ILB is also a need on some level, our in house options and penchant for finding them late or undrafted aside. I would love Charlton, Davis or even Lamp with some of you guy's evaluations of him as a player, all would profile as being more beneficial to the team imo, at the very least strategically more beneficial. But I just don't see anyone having those guys above Foster as a player. It seems across the board from scouts to analysts that Foster is the second coming and after Garrett, far and away the best player at their position and possibly in the draft. Garrett, Fournette, Howard, Lattimore, Foster, and maybe Thomas, Adams, Hooker are considered the blue chippers of the draft. Of that group I've barely seen anyone rank Foster lower than 3 or 4. Or he's lower but only with the attached caveat of off field concerns affecting said lower ranking. I'm inclined to believe that if Foster is on the board with a 8.9 or 9.0 evaluation and bonafide blue chip status, surrounded by other players in the 7.8-7.5 range, the team will no doubt pick him. I don't even think it's a question at this point.

If you don't want Foster on this team you have 3 wishes:

1. He's gone before we pick.
2. Someone else below us wants him more and gives us enough to give up the pick and allow them to select him.
3. He's not actually being considered with his issues being what they are, and the Raven smoke is in full effect.

Two Draft Questions

1. What are thoughts on Dion Dawkins G Temple?

2. Would drafting a receiver be detrimental to the development of our previous investment?

I'm curious about other's thoughts on Dawkins. He seems to be the best option outside the 1st round to immediately make the line better. It would be a KO type pick where we take a lineman somewhat raw with upside and plant them at LG. He would be an asset in the run game and could develop into a high level guard just as KO did. I think he'll be there at our 2nd round pick and barring the team having a problem with he and Reddick's arrest of the past, seems like a likely pick for us.

If we pick another receiver early would that detract from Perriman's development? What are some philosophies out there on developing talent at the position? If Perriman is one of fewer options in the passing game will higher numbers of targets and higher levels of expectation and pressure evolve him into a better player? Or is it something that we shouldn't even consider and if he develops he develops. Corey Davis would step in and be a true #1 so forget about worrying over Perriman's development and add a true weapon. If that is the thought process, then what was the point of even drafting Perriman a noted "project" in the first place? Also maybe some feel the outcomes aren't mutually exclusive, drafting another receiver wouldn't change anything only give us another weapon and leave our developing one's destiny unchanged.
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Danand


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the questionmarks regarding Foster are many, none of them a truly detrimental to his draft value imo. It would not be a surprise pick in any way, I just think we get better value with either pass rusher or oline.

And again, Corey Davis is in between as a wide receiver because I think he would be a really good compliment to what we already have.

The thing is with drafting a receiver high. Baring the exit of Watson, we potentially have Gillmore, Williams, Waller, Boyle, Perriman, Wallace, Moore, Campanaro and Woodhead as options in the passing game. That group has potential but also a lot of questionmarks. I don't think we help ourselves the best by adding another receiving option, and I am not even high on Perriman.

I'm glad you mentioned Dawkins as I think he is one of the talents we should pay more attention to. I have him in my 2b bracket and while I probably zoned in on Lamp and Elflein as the Olines I prefer, Dawkins should be mentioned as well as he seems to fit exactly what we want in our players. It seems (from my slobby notes) that I didn't like that he sometimes just fails miserably in his assignment. That might be a technique issue, but as I recall, I really like him in 9 of 10 plays, but the one play I don't like turned out really really bad.
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bmorecareful


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all things considered I don't see how if Foster is there at 16 that there could be any scenario that Ozzie would pass up on him being the Pick.... With the clear need at ILB the ties to Alabama and the fact that he is a clear top ten talent in this draft it just seems like a raven type pick based on us historically... I honestly think it is a bigger need than we realize and gives us the same type of flexibility at LB that we have at safety... and it allows correa to be a full time edge... think about it like this with zudon smith Suggs and correa... the addition of foster should allow us to utilize them in less drops while also improving our overall run defense as well... my only question is if we believe foster is enough of an upgrade at inside backer to not address receiver in the first if our top prospect is on the board which he very well may be
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paraven


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Todd and Mel latest combined mock draft had Malik Hooker falling to us, and Todd took Cam Robinson instead. I know we have a lot of safeties on the roster, but if Hooker is there at 16, I cant see the ravens passing. Thoughts?

*I know that most of there mock drafts are awfully wrong past the top ten. But I thought it was interesting Hooker fell.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danand wrote:
A Cam Robinson/Forest Lamp would make a lot of sense. A receiver like Taywan Taylor in the 3-4 round/a Ryan Switzer in the 4-5 round would make a lot of sense.


If it's Lamp in the first round, sure. He's going to be really good. But Robinson? Man, he's too risky as a prospect at that point. It would be an egregious overreach based on need considering who else will likely be available at that point. Moving to right tackle might help Cam out but he has some serious technique issues regardless and isn't going to slide by based on pure size and strength like he did in college. And you know I'm all for getting the offensive line some help, so it's not the idea of taking a right tackle in the first round (a year after taking a left tackle in the first round) that's getting me. It's all about Robinson as a prospect.

DreamKid wrote:
I get Pernell McPhee vibes off of Malik McDowell, he can play edge, 5 tech, NT. Really any down or rush position. He's a special athlete.


Eh, kind of but not quite. Maybe the defensive line version of McPhee. Pernell didn't start really ramping things up until he moved off the line of scrimmage and played more in space/on the edge. Like he did his rookie year, and then the team tried bullying him up and making him something he wasn't.

Quote:
Two Draft Questions

1. What are thoughts on Dion Dawkins G Temple?

2. Would drafting a receiver be detrimental to the development of our previous investment?


Dawkins is good. Another tremendous option at 47. One of the few offensive linemen you could say that about, which means he probably won't make it to 47.

No. I don't see adding another receiver as detrimental to Perriman's development. Not unless they play the same roles on offense and I don't think that would be the case with any of the discussed wide receiver prospects. Ross would be the closest but still different. Keep in mind that Wallace only has one year left on his deal and might not be back next year. If you look at the wide receiver group going forward without him, and it's not like he's that great, something needs to be done even if Perriman takes a big step forward this year. If you don't scheme it right, and the Ravens don't and won't, one good receiver isn't going to cut it.

Danand wrote:
The thing is with drafting a receiver high. Baring the exit of Watson, we potentially have Gillmore, Williams, Waller, Boyle, Perriman, Wallace, Moore, Campanaro and Woodhead as options in the passing game. That group has potential but also a lot of questionmarks. I don't think we help ourselves the best by adding another receiving option, and I am not even high on Perriman.


The Ravens have plenty of options in the passing game. They still need a fixture or two though. I guess you could think of Pitta as a fixture given how often Flacco looks his way but that's not a good thing. Getting someone reliable in any situation on the outside would do wonders for the passing game. Not just a bunch of rotating role players. There's something to be said for a bona fide starting receiver. The only likes of which Baltimore has had the last 10 years are older veterans past their primes. That's my reasoning for really getting behind the idea of Davis, Williams, or Ross in the first round. I agree that upgrading the offensive line should be the most important thing to do going forward for Baltimore but if it's not Lamp at 16 I don't think anybody else is worth taking. So then you move on to the next best thing.

bmorecareful wrote:
and it allows correa to be a full time edge... think about it like this with zudon smith Suggs and correa...


I don't think any of this is ever going to be about "allowing" Correa to play full-time on the edge. Not with the team moving him to inside linebacker almost immediately last offseason. Before Orr retired and there was a perceived hole at ILB. Kamalei isn't getting projected there just now because Zach is gone, that seems to be where the Ravens wanted him all along. Which would have been a waste if Orr did come back considering Pees doesn't rotate inside linebackers but if the front office is going to put up with his incompetence then oh well. Regardless, my view is that even if Foster is drafted by the Ravens I don't think we will see too much of Correa on the outside. He should and would offer and immediate upgrade to the pass-rush... but Dean Pees.
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