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KingTitan


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ttitansfan4life wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Yep exactly.


I feel like it needs to be stated that, yes his 40 time is what a lot of people...almost all the people will point to as reason enough to draft him.

He actually plays very fast and has great quickness. Good route running and catches the ball well.

Injuries are the pretty much the only reason he isn't a top 10 pick, with size being another knock on him.

But yes. He could be Top 10 or he could be first pick in the 2nd round. All depends on the team.
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ragevsuall17


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Or... you know... the game film from last season.

That speed 100% translates on the field. That film also shows great breaks, great route running (and the intricacies of head fakes, etc), extraordinary quickness and ability of yards after the catch. He understands defenses, and is a self-proclaimed (and coach confirmed) film rat. He offers more than just 4.22. The only WR I'd take over him in this draft is Williams... but I could see him be the 1st WR taken... and I could see him being the 3rd WR taken... but he's not a guy that falls out of the 1st... even with his injury history.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ragevsuall17 wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Or... you know... the game film from last season.

That speed 100% translates on the field. That film also shows great breaks, great route running (and the intricacies of head fakes, etc), extraordinary quickness and ability of yards after the catch. He understands defenses, and is a self-proclaimed (and coach confirmed) film rat. He offers more than just 4.22. The only WR I'd take over him in this draft is Williams... but I could see him be the 1st WR taken... and I could see him being the 3rd WR taken... but he's not a guy that falls out of the 1st... even with his injury history.


He was never considered a top ten pick based on game film alone. He has had the exact same surgery that caused Myles Jack to fall along with surgery on the other knee. I could see him falling, but I don't expect it.
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ragevsuall17


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanSS wrote:
ragevsuall17 wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Or... you know... the game film from last season.

That speed 100% translates on the field. That film also shows great breaks, great route running (and the intricacies of head fakes, etc), extraordinary quickness and ability of yards after the catch. He understands defenses, and is a self-proclaimed (and coach confirmed) film rat. He offers more than just 4.22. The only WR I'd take over him in this draft is Williams... but I could see him be the 1st WR taken... and I could see him being the 3rd WR taken... but he's not a guy that falls out of the 1st... even with his injury history.


He was never considered a top ten pick based on game film alone. He has had the exact same surgery that caused Myles Jack to fall along with surgery on the other knee. I could see him falling, but I don't expect it.


Some people may be more jittery with offseason workouts... and while I think they have some bearing... it shouldn't be earth shattering moves (like Obi... love the athleticism, but don't like him in the 1st)... and it didn't alter my perception of Ross much from the end of the season. I don't think he's a top 10 pick... the injury history has the biggest effect on that. But I think, even with the injuries, he's very attractive anywhere in the teens... 13-19 being the likely range. Other factors may change that (a team enamored with him takes him before 13... or he falls past 20, not because he's not worth the pick, but because of the depth of draft and different team needs), but I think 13-19 is a good baseline range for him.

We could wait until 18 to see of he's there, or we could move up a couple picks to ensure we land him... like we did Conklin last year... especially if we're able to trade down from 5 a few spots. If Ross gets drafted around 15 or so, we'll know he wasn't JRob's target... we've seen he's not shy to move around to get the guy he wants.

I like Williams best... but if both Williams and Ross are there at 15, I think there's a good shot one of them is around at 18... so I wouldn't make the move up... yet. As soon as one's taken, I start looking to see what it would cost to move up to that next spot, make sure I land one of my guys, at a position of need, without anyone jumping me. It shouldn't be a crushing cost.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't really arguing about his range based off tape alone, just saying that I could see any random team falling in love with him being the "official" fastest player in the NFL and taking him in the top 10, or I could see multiple teams being scared of multiple knee injuries and microfracture surgery and him falling. I kind of don't expect him to be there at 18, but I wouldn't mind any of the top 3 at 18.
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KingTitan


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanSS wrote:
ragevsuall17 wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Or... you know... the game film from last season.

That speed 100% translates on the field. That film also shows great breaks, great route running (and the intricacies of head fakes, etc), extraordinary quickness and ability of yards after the catch. He understands defenses, and is a self-proclaimed (and coach confirmed) film rat. He offers more than just 4.22. The only WR I'd take over him in this draft is Williams... but I could see him be the 1st WR taken... and I could see him being the 3rd WR taken... but he's not a guy that falls out of the 1st... even with his injury history.


He was never considered a top ten pick based on game film alone. He has had the exact same surgery that caused Myles Jack to fall along with surgery on the other knee. I could see him falling, but I don't expect it.


To be fair, I don't think Marshon Lattimore was considered one either, if I'm correct. People like Teez Tabor and even Quincy Wilson were getting mocked to us at #5.

So it's not unheard of for a prospect to rise during the draft process. It's not because of speed. Scouts, coaches get in the mix and someone starts moving up. See Hassan Reddick.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingTitan wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ragevsuall17 wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Or... you know... the game film from last season.

That speed 100% translates on the field. That film also shows great breaks, great route running (and the intricacies of head fakes, etc), extraordinary quickness and ability of yards after the catch. He understands defenses, and is a self-proclaimed (and coach confirmed) film rat. He offers more than just 4.22. The only WR I'd take over him in this draft is Williams... but I could see him be the 1st WR taken... and I could see him being the 3rd WR taken... but he's not a guy that falls out of the 1st... even with his injury history.


He was never considered a top ten pick based on game film alone. He has had the exact same surgery that caused Myles Jack to fall along with surgery on the other knee. I could see him falling, but I don't expect it.


To be fair, I don't think Marshon Lattimore was considered one either, if I'm correct. People like Teez Tabor and even Quincy Wilson were getting mocked to us at #5.

So it's not unheard of for a prospect to rise during the draft process. It's not because of speed. Scouts, coaches get in the mix and someone starts moving up. See Hassan Reddick.


Marshon Lattimore moved up the more people watched his tape. He was a unanimous top 10 pick prior to the Combine. I shared something two months ago where it compiled all of the popular mocks and Marshon Lattimore/O.J. Howard were the most mocked to us, in order. Lattimore has been the consensus #1 CB for months, with Sidney Jones as the #2 before his injury. Tabor and Wilson were in that mix of 2nd tier guys for quite a while (I had them below Moreau/White/Tankersly/Humphrey even prior to the Combine).

Ross wasn't mocked any higher than #18 prior to the Combine. Had nothing to do with getting more time to study film. Now you can occasionally see him going as high as #8.

Howard is no longer mocked to us because his Combine shot him into the top 10-12, not because people like his tape any more.

Everyone knew John Ross was fast. His Combine really shouldn't have any bearing on his draft status. The Combine should really only impact your evaluation when someone performs well out of the range that you would expect them to perform, whether that's positive or negative.

I dropped Tabor off the board at the beginning of the season when he legally changed his name to Teez. Confused
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TwoToneBlue


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanSS wrote:


I dropped Tabor off the board at the beginning of the season when he legally changed his name to Teez. Confused


I dropped him when I watched his tape and saw how soft he was.
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ragevsuall17


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanSS wrote:
KingTitan wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ragevsuall17 wrote:
TitanSS wrote:
ttitansfan4life wrote:
deeluxx3 wrote:
I doubt Ross lasts until 18


Eh I've seen rumors of him even dropping out of the 1st all together due to the injury history.


I wouldn't be surprised if he drops or goes in the top ten. All it takes is one team with a boner for his 40-yard dash.


Or... you know... the game film from last season.

That speed 100% translates on the field. That film also shows great breaks, great route running (and the intricacies of head fakes, etc), extraordinary quickness and ability of yards after the catch. He understands defenses, and is a self-proclaimed (and coach confirmed) film rat. He offers more than just 4.22. The only WR I'd take over him in this draft is Williams... but I could see him be the 1st WR taken... and I could see him being the 3rd WR taken... but he's not a guy that falls out of the 1st... even with his injury history.


He was never considered a top ten pick based on game film alone. He has had the exact same surgery that caused Myles Jack to fall along with surgery on the other knee. I could see him falling, but I don't expect it.


To be fair, I don't think Marshon Lattimore was considered one either, if I'm correct. People like Teez Tabor and even Quincy Wilson were getting mocked to us at #5.

So it's not unheard of for a prospect to rise during the draft process. It's not because of speed. Scouts, coaches get in the mix and someone starts moving up. See Hassan Reddick.


Marshon Lattimore moved up the more people watched his tape. He was a unanimous top 10 pick prior to the Combine. I shared something two months ago where it compiled all of the popular mocks and Marshon Lattimore/O.J. Howard were the most mocked to us, in order. Lattimore has been the consensus #1 CB for months, with Sidney Jones as the #2 before his injury. Tabor and Wilson were in that mix of 2nd tier guys for quite a while (I had them below Moreau/White/Tankersly/Humphrey even prior to the Combine).

Ross wasn't mocked any higher than #18 prior to the Combine. Had nothing to do with getting more time to study film. Now you can occasionally see him going as high as #8.

Howard is no longer mocked to us because his Combine shot him into the top 10-12, not because people like his tape any more.

Everyone knew John Ross was fast. His Combine really shouldn't have any bearing on his draft status. The Combine should really only impact your evaluation when someone performs well out of the range that you would expect them to perform, whether that's positive or negative.

I dropped Tabor off the board at the beginning of the season when he legally changed his name to Teez. Confused


This is a board and it's fun to discuss back and forth, it gives us a good distraction for the 7 long months between seasons. It also gives football websites a good opportunity to increase traffic, sell subscriptions or ads, as we flock to their sites to get the latest "board shake ups".

But let's be honest here...

Teams have multi million dollar scouting departments. The rest of us don't have that (includes us posters and most websites). Even the "experts" from major websites don't have or use the resources teams have and use (and yet, mistakes yearly are still made constantly by every team, some more than others). Draft boards are being arranged during the season... and team's have a good general board starting in January. They continue attending workouts, the all star games, etc, trying to make sure they didn't miss anything or anyone... but the major players... especially those in power 5 conferences are pretty set way before the combine.

For these major school prospects, the combine and off season workouts and meetings affords them the opportunity to address teams directly, talk to them about any concerns there may still have that couldn't be answered from film (off field concerns, medical concerns, X and O type stuff). For the kids coming from non power conference schools, it gives them an opportunity to get out there on an equal playing field with their peers. (X player looks really fast against those other guys, but how fast is he really... he wasn't asked to do Y, does he at least have the athletic ability to do it if asked at the next level, etc).

Players can and will move up and down during the offseason, but for the most part, their general range and value has been set.

So while mocks dramatically may move players like Lattimore and Ross (Reddick, Obi, etc) based on whatever catches our attention in the offseason, teams had them pretty set already. The biggest movers for both, on official team boards would be new off-field issues and the medical checks that are performed at the combine.

The medical checks are huge, which means this week is also huge for some players as the combine medical rechecks are happening tomorrow and Friday. Ross, Davis, Butt, Jones (not attending, but sending current scans), Foster (important as he was asked to leave at the original check, after his shoulder procedure), etc will be reevaluated by league doctors... see where they are, how they're improving from their various ailments this offseason.
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TitanSS


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure that for the most part boards are set, but there are always cases in which players move drastically based on workouts. The two you mentioned are good examples of guys who probably moved up at least half a round, if not more.

Then there are the extreme examples. Chris Henry is undrafted free agent if he doesn't participate in the off-season workouts. If he even managed to get signed, he wouldn't make it to a roster come the start of the season. He didn't even start for his team in college and averaged under 3 YPC in his college career. Never fear! Jeff Fisher is here to take him in the 2nd round.

The Arizona Wildcats official site lists him with 104 carries for 311 yards and 2 TDs in his career, never starting a game.
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ragevsuall17


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TitanSS wrote:
I'm sure that for the most part boards are set, but there are always cases in which players move drastically based on workouts. The two you mentioned are good examples of guys who probably moved up at least half a round, if not more.

Then there are the extreme examples. Chris Henry is undrafted free agent if he doesn't participate in the off-season workouts. If he even managed to get signed, he wouldn't make it to a roster come the start of the season. He didn't even start for his team in college and averaged under 3 YPC in his college career. Never fear! Jeff Fisher is here to take him in the 2nd round.

The Arizona Wildcats official site lists him with 104 carries for 311 yards and 2 TDs in his career, never starting a game.


We had a FO that was enamored with size:speed ratios over productivity, and had a baby GM who had been part of that mentality. And not that it makes a big deal, cuz his stats were a joke for a 2nd rounder, those were his stats going into his senior year. His senior year was still nothing to write home about (under 600 yards rushing), but did display the amazing ability teams were salivating about... a 191 yard game in the 2nd to last game of the season against Oregon.

But I won't deny his workout had a lot to do with his draft spot. I was a different person then too... the Titans had conditioned me to be all about that potential and size:speed ratios they put so much emphasis into.

We have a different front office now. And while some remnants remain in the scouting ranks, they've had to adjust (or risk losing their jobs). I'm sure there are some FO's that still place more value than others in the offseason workouts... and not just for injuries or players outside the Power-5. And while I'm sure some had/have Ross as a marginal 1st rounder, it was never because of what they already knew about his speed (he was timed at 4.25 before the season began)... it was because of injury. Him running 4.22 at the combine doesn't eliminate that. If anything has elevated him this offseason, it's been his medical checks... because the speed was never in question (it wasn't like teams thought of him as an average speed guy, and then suddenly changed after the combine).

Reddick and Obi played outside the Power 5, so they did have more wiggle room... but Reddick hasn't moved up cuz of workouts. The media has elevated him this offseason as they started paying more attention. But that doesn't mean teams didn't already have him rated highly. Obi may be similar, but he scares me more. He hasn't risen in the media this year because they just started paying attention... he rose after the amazing combine. His film and stats, unlike Reddick, don't back up what most are now saying. Maybe a team becomes enamored with his workout and potential... but I hope that's not us anymore.
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