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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the hardest part of what we do here as fans is separating what WE want to have happen from really looking and trying to figure out what our GM is doing.

I don't agree with everything Pace has done, I think he was stupid for letting Alshon go, etc etc, but it is what it is.

I'd love to get Watson in here, but I just don't think it's going to happen. If that's the case, then I'd rather get another 1st round talent at pick #36 instead of investing 1-2 years in Glennon and handing it over to a Deshone Kizer. That just seems like an inefficient and frankly dumb plan to me.

I think the absolute best thing we can do, if that's the goal, is find a way to trade down from #3 to #8 or so:

#8
#36
#40
#64

I really hope this is the move and it really would help explain why Pace is having private visits with Reuben Foster and OJ Howard. You can take your QB at #8 or #36 and still have a prime 2nd round pick to grab a corner, TE, or OT.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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IronMike84


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 8194
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
I'd love to get Watson in here, but I just don't think it's going to happen. If that's the case, then I'd rather get another 1st round talent at pick #36 instead of investing 1-2 years in Glennon and handing it over to a Deshone Kizer. That just seems like an inefficient and frankly dumb plan to me.

Pace's preferred QB traits: durable, productive, consistent, elevates program.

In this draft, I think he'd be lucky to get three out of four of those.

It's hard to gauge. Nobody naturally fits that mold. They kind of have to be shoehorned in.

I think a strong case can be made for Pace likely liking Watson. He really liked Mariota, and they're similar players in many respects.
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Rotoworld.com wrote:
...internet mock drafts, which have ridiculously become the measuring stick for where players are "supposed" to go.
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 3246
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
The Bears also could take a dude who just won a National Championship and was being talked about as a potential #1 overall pick.

Is that win-win too? Because it's not going to happen.


I mean, forgive my vigor here because I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but have people forgotten that Pace loves Mike Glennon? High grade on him during the draft process, tried to trade for him twice, and now threw a bunch of money at him when no other team was even near his ballpark. And we're going to skip allllllllllll the 2nd round talent because Deshone Kizer could maybe have been a 1st round pick on a non-psychopath coached team?


I think this is a major division between a lot of posters. Many of us talk more about who we want and like rather than what Pace will do. Frankly I don't buy into most of what people say about the what the "insiders" claim, so playing guessing games on Pace's mindset get boring quickly to me with so much potentially unreliable information around. I personally like evaluating players and hearing others' views on what makes a player special or not, and the manner they would try to build a team far more than going over 100 scenarios for a few picks. But to each their own.

Pace may hope to strike gold but if this QB class is so bad and Glennon still didn't have anyone else near his ballpark then Pace should be smart enough to know Glennon doing well is highly unlikely. To me him throwing an unwarranted contract at Glennon sounds like Pace wants to take the stab in the dark and not have to force a QB pick, rather than saying that position is set for the year or longer. Even with so many saying this QB class was weak, Glennon still was far from a hot commodity, and for damn good reason IMO.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just try to take people at their word until they betray that, and then I just think the worst of said individual (think Theo Epstein vs Gar Forman).

Pace can't run his mouth about a QB having leadership traits and raising a program and then not draft Deshaun Watson. That's really what irritates me about the whole thing (and who knows, maybe he still takes Watson).

I'm just not holding my breath.
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topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16322
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
The Bears also could take a dude who just won a National Championship and was being talked about as a potential #1 overall pick.

Is that win-win too? Because it's not going to happen.


I mean, forgive my vigor here because I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but have people forgotten that Pace loves Mike Glennon? High grade on him during the draft process, tried to trade for him twice, and now threw a bunch of money at him when no other team was even near his ballpark. And we're going to skip allllllllllll the 2nd round talent because Deshone Kizer could maybe have been a 1st round pick on a non-psychopath coached team?


No one thinks you are being a -.

Everything that points towards Pace loving Glennon is what Pace has told us. What do you expect him to say about the QB he just signed? Does anyone expect him to be lukewarm on a QB he picked?

The facts are

-If he wanted to trade for him last season he could have easily. Does anyone think TB was turning down a 2nd round pick for Glennon? Pace clearly did not value him highly enough to offer a premium pick.

-He paid him a lot of money, that is essentially a 1 year deal for 22nd ranked money. If he truly believed would he not have felt more comfortable committing more? It is good business not to commit to a player you are not sure about.




You take Kizer because he gives you a 2nd swing at the QB pitch. If Mike Glennon struggles you do not sit through a 4-12 season with your handpicked QB sucking and no answer, because that may get Pace fired.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16322
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
G08 wrote:
The Bears also could take a dude who just won a National Championship and was being talked about as a potential #1 overall pick.

Is that win-win too? Because it's not going to happen.


I mean, forgive my vigor here because I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but have people forgotten that Pace loves Mike Glennon? High grade on him during the draft process, tried to trade for him twice, and now threw a bunch of money at him when no other team was even near his ballpark. And we're going to skip allllllllllll the 2nd round talent because Deshone Kizer could maybe have been a 1st round pick on a non-psychopath coached team?


I think this is a major division between a lot of posters. Many of us talk more about who we want and like rather than what Pace will do. Frankly I don't buy into most of what people say about the what the "insiders" claim, so playing guessing games on Pace's mindset get boring quickly to me with so much potentially unreliable information around. I personally like evaluating players and hearing others' views on what makes a player special or not, and the manner they would try to build a team far more than going over 100 scenarios for a few picks. But to each their own.

Pace may hope to strike gold but if this QB class is so bad and Glennon still didn't have anyone else near his ballpark then Pace should be smart enough to know Glennon doing well is highly unlikely. To me him throwing an unwarranted contract at Glennon sounds like Pace wants to take the stab in the dark and not have to force a QB pick, rather than saying that position is set for the year or longer. Even with so many saying this QB class was weak, Glennon still was far from a hot commodity, and for damn good reason IMO.


I do not think there is any chance the Bears take a QB at 3.

I think their is an above average chance that they move up into the last 1st or pick one at 36 if the QBs fall.

There is no way that Ryan Pace is going to pass on that type of insurance for the most important spot in football that is still so unsettled.
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
Pathetic
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 16322
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally do no see them taking a QB early in the draft. Not because they do not want to, I think they do.

But I do not think that Kizer or any of the top 4 fall into the 2nd round and I think there are too many teams between 36 and lets says 24 that want and need a QB.

I have no doubts that Pace does not want to stare down the barrel of an important season after going 9-23 in the previous 2 with a QB depth chart of

Glennon
Sanchez
Late Round Pick
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John Fox
3-13 this season, 9-23 overall, 4-12 at home
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RunningVaccs


Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 105
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's completely fair to judge Pace by what the Bears QB situation looks like next year, especially after ignoring it for the last 2. If he is comfortable with Glennon starting and some mid rounder like Kaaya or Peterman developing then he is playing seriously risky ball.

My best case scenario is a trade down into the first and/or up from the second for your QB, depending on which one he likes. If that doesn't work I would take either Trubisky or Watson at 3. You'll be judged for overreaching, but either way it he doesn't have a QB on the roster with promise before 2018 he is on the street.

Pace has put his own back against the wall here, I'm fine with him overspending and taking a big swing at QB at pick #3.
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1780
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G08 wrote:
The Bears also could take a dude who just won a National Championship and was being talked about as a potential #1 overall pick.

Is that win-win too? Because it's not going to happen.


I mean, forgive my vigor here because I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but have people forgotten that Pace loves Mike Glennon? High grade on him during the draft process, tried to trade for him twice, and now threw a bunch of money at him when no other team was even near his ballpark. And we're going to skip allllllllllll the 2nd round talent because Deshone Kizer could maybe have been a 1st round pick on a non-psychopath coached team?

Is Pace all in on Glennon? Sounds like an issue worthy of it's own thread. I'm thinking that he is and we A- won't see a QB drafted until the fourth or later and B- we won't see Pace in 2018 after Glennon proves the rest of the league correct.

Having said that, other than his poorer second year stats than his first year and then being benched the last 2 seasons, I have nothing else to go on per Glennon as I have not been an ardent viewer of Tampa Bay games.
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51to54


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1780
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epyon wrote:
If that was the draft strategy, it means Allen overcame his poor combine to convince both Pace and Fangio, as well as was cleared medical checks on his shoulders.... And pace had at least some faith in Kizer....

So in that respect, yeah sure to that draft...

That being said, from the more limited information I have as a fan, from my own research on the prospects as a hobby, I want little to nothing to do with that draft..... Allen tested horribly at the combine and has medical concerns on his shoulders.... Kizer is borderline undraftable to me accuracy wise, and that's before his questionable decision making. Everett I'm indifferent on, but not taking any DBs in the first 3 rounds is a very risky proposition, considering that's where all the value is.

I can agree with going with a Dline with the 3rd, but not a guy with his shoulder issues and somewhat on his combine numbers. I am kind of on board with taking the best QB still on the board with the second, but Kizer really isn't on my list of 1-2 round QBs. And as you noted, with this deep draft in DB's it's almost mandatory for us to pick one in the first 3 rounds to maximize our pick.
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G08


Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 6761
Location: World Championsville
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best thing we can do is trade down, hopefully with Carolina.

#3 for

#8, #40 and #64 OR a 2018 2nd rounder


This gives us a shot at our QB (Watson at 8? Trade up from #36 for Kizer? Trade up from #67 for Peterman?).
_________________
topwop1 wrote:
My point is you can find a franchise guy like [Derek] Carr in every draft

jrry32 wrote:
apples

When the defense allowed 20 pts or fewer, the Cutler-led Bears were 36-7
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GOGRIESE


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 25902
Location: Austin Texas
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

51to54 wrote:
G08 wrote:
The Bears also could take a dude who just won a National Championship and was being talked about as a potential #1 overall pick.

Is that win-win too? Because it's not going to happen.


I mean, forgive my vigor here because I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but have people forgotten that Pace loves Mike Glennon? High grade on him during the draft process, tried to trade for him twice, and now threw a bunch of money at him when no other team was even near his ballpark. And we're going to skip allllllllllll the 2nd round talent because Deshone Kizer could maybe have been a 1st round pick on a non-psychopath coached team?

Is Pace all in on Glennon? Sounds like an issue worthy of it's own thread. I'm thinking that he is and we A- won't see a QB drafted until the fourth or later and B- we won't see Pace in 2018 after Glennon proves the rest of the league correct.

Having said that, other than his poorer second year stats than his first year and then being benched the last 2 seasons, I have nothing else to go on per Glennon as I have not been an ardent viewer of Tampa Bay games.


I dont think he is and the biggest piece of evidence is his contract. Why didnt he on day 1 of free agent give Glennon 5 year deal with a bunch of front loaded guaranteed money? Why didnt they at the press conference announce that they had their franchise QB and we're sticking with him through thick and thin?

He's hedging his bets. He knows he cant come out and say that then watch his QB play poorly with no other option. It's not going to happen. The contract reflects it and I'm sure during draft day it will too.
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Epyon


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 423
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing to consider is the 5th year option....

Even if the top 4 are gone, and you have say Webb on your board as a 2nd rounder (I don't fwiw, but for example)....

It's almost worth the 3rd or 4th round pick to move up 5-6 spots into the back of the first and make the selection, just for that 5th year option.


That being said, I think this draft has seriously about 45 players who would normally go in that 16-32 range in other years, and since that's where all the value is, I wouldn't be the least bit upset by us making moves to maximize our picks in that range...up to and including dumping next years' first rounder for 2 high 2nds this year (and yes I'm aware that most of you pretty strongly disagree with even considering touching next year's picks)... but for example, Saints have 32 and 40 this year... and you can get some pretty beastly guys with those two picks.
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