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cp0k2
Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 6732
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 Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| domepatrol91 wrote: | | Deadpulse wrote: | | domepatrol91 wrote: | | Calibucsfan wrote: | | There's rumors on twitter and other football sites that the "holdup" is the Pats want Saints 11th pick, not looking to get their 32nd back. |
according to pats fans in the Saints forum, BB won't even discuss a trade for Butler. They're denying that talks are even happening.
So there's that too.  |
whose doing that? |
check the last couple pages of our general off-season discussion thread.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=585239&start=375 |
Looks as if they quoted Belichick saying he doesn't talk about players that haven't signed a tender? Large misrepresentation or misunderstanding on your part.
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domepatrol91
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 7929
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cp0k2 wrote: | | domepatrol91 wrote: | | Deadpulse wrote: | | domepatrol91 wrote: | | Calibucsfan wrote: | | There's rumors on twitter and other football sites that the "holdup" is the Pats want Saints 11th pick, not looking to get their 32nd back. |
according to pats fans in the Saints forum, BB won't even discuss a trade for Butler. They're denying that talks are even happening.
So there's that too. |
whose doing that? |
check the last couple pages of our general off-season discussion thread.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=585239&start=375 |
Looks as if they quoted Belichick saying he doesn't talk about players that haven't signed a tender? Large misrepresentation or misunderstanding on your part. |
Butler hasnt signed his tender. He's one of those players BB allegedly won't talk about.
I was simply making the point that one source is saying there a a holdup because pats are asking for 11 while another is saying discussions havent even started. How could there be a holdup in discussions that Belichick isn't even having?
That's why I said "so there's that too" |
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lancerman
Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up.
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wackywabbit
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 11998
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| lancerman wrote: | So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up. |
You can't seriously believe that the Saints and Pats haven't talked trade value for Butler. There were Butler for Cooks rumors well before the Saints officially brought in Butler for talks. And now coincidentally? the Saints are the team most interested in Butler.
Even if you do believe that, your last sentence about the Saints looking bad if they don't put the 11 up is also wrong. They would look bad if they DID put the 11 up for Butler. That's much stupider than... what? Wasting time in negotiations? Butler could be back on the market as soon as next year, even if he plays out his tender in NE. |
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domepatrol91
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| wackywabbit wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up. |
You can't seriously believe that the Saints and Pats haven't talked trade value for Butler. There was Butler for Cooks rumors well before the Saints officially brought in Butler for talks. |
this is what we've been saying in the Saints forum. BB might've said he won't discuss unsigned players, but that was 8 years ago and its also BB so what else do you expect him to say?
He and Payton have a great relationship and share a common thread in that they both hate Goodell. If there's a guy BB would discuss something like this and risk getting trouble, it would be with Payton. |
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lancerman
Joined: 06 Feb 2011
Posts: 8685
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| wackywabbit wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up. |
You can't seriously believe that the Saints and Pats haven't talked trade value for Butler. There were Butler for Cooks rumors well before the Saints officially brought in Butler for talks. And now coincidentally? the Saints are the team most interested in Butler.
Even if you do believe that, your last sentence about the Saints looking bad if they don't put the 11 up is also wrong. They would look bad if they DID put the 11 up for Butler. That's much stupider than... what? Wasting time in negotiations? Butler could be back on the market as soon as next year, even if he plays out his tender in NE. |
Well first off that's the report. And almost everything that's been reported about this has said the Patriots, specifically Bill Belichick, will absolutely not discuss any deals with anybody who has signed the tender. That has remained consistent back then and is consistent with reports now. If you have evidence refuting that, feel free to back your point up.
As far as the Cooks situation goes, that deal is done. Patriots have him already. If that was the Saints leverage, it's gone. This is no longer the same deal. And if it was, which there is no evidence to back you up on that, it was horrible planning by the Saints.
Now to the greater point, no the Saints look really bad if they are knowingly working out a deal with a player and not the team they need to agree to a trade. Sorry that's just business. Unless they are willing to give up the 11, anything they talk to Butler about is at the mercy of the Patriots. And considering every single credible report has indicating the Patriots haven't talked to Butler or the Saints in this regard, that is where it stands. So right now the Saints are allegedly working out a deal with a player that they can only get if they offer the 11. That's the only way to ensure that deal has any meaning.
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MookieMonster
Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| lancerman wrote: | | wackywabbit wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up. |
You can't seriously believe that the Saints and Pats haven't talked trade value for Butler. There were Butler for Cooks rumors well before the Saints officially brought in Butler for talks. And now coincidentally? the Saints are the team most interested in Butler.
Even if you do believe that, your last sentence about the Saints looking bad if they don't put the 11 up is also wrong. They would look bad if they DID put the 11 up for Butler. That's much stupider than... what? Wasting time in negotiations? Butler could be back on the market as soon as next year, even if he plays out his tender in NE. |
Well first off that's the report. And almost everything that's been reported about this has said the Patriots, specifically Bill Belichick, will absolutely not discuss any deals with anybody who has signed the tender. That has remained consistent back then and is consistent with reports now. If you have evidence refuting that, feel free to back your point up.
As far as the Cooks situation goes, that deal is done. Patriots have him already. If that was the Saints leverage, it's gone. This is no longer the same deal. And if it was, which there is no evidence to back you up on that, it was horrible planning by the Saints.
Now to the greater point, no the Saints look really bad if they are knowingly working out a deal with a player and not the team they need to agree to a trade. Sorry that's just business. Unless they are willing to give up the 11, anything they talk to Butler about is at the mercy of the Patriots. And considering every single credible report has indicating the Patriots haven't talked to Butler or the Saints in this regard, that is where it stands. So right now the Saints are allegedly working out a deal with a player that they can only get if they offer the 11. That's the only way to ensure that deal has any meaning. |
Saints wouldn't look bad at all. Stop. They'd simply tell Butler, look we really want you but the Patriots are refusing to work out a trade with us and we can't justify moving the 11th pick for you.
If Butler gets upset with that, so be it. The Saints aren't going to give up the 11th pick to "not look bad". That's VERY wishful thinking. I also don't believe for a second the Saints and Patriots haven't, at the least, had brief discussions on what compensation would look like.
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FrenchWuDat
Joined: 12 Mar 2015
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MookieMonster wrote: | | If Butler gets upset with that, so be it. The Saints aren't going to give up the 11th pick to "not look bad". That's VERY wishful thinking. |
Yep, and in that case, it's not the Saints he would be upset with. |
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lancerman
Joined: 06 Feb 2011
Posts: 8685
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| MookieMonster wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | | wackywabbit wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up. |
You can't seriously believe that the Saints and Pats haven't talked trade value for Butler. There were Butler for Cooks rumors well before the Saints officially brought in Butler for talks. And now coincidentally? the Saints are the team most interested in Butler.
Even if you do believe that, your last sentence about the Saints looking bad if they don't put the 11 up is also wrong. They would look bad if they DID put the 11 up for Butler. That's much stupider than... what? Wasting time in negotiations? Butler could be back on the market as soon as next year, even if he plays out his tender in NE. |
Well first off that's the report. And almost everything that's been reported about this has said the Patriots, specifically Bill Belichick, will absolutely not discuss any deals with anybody who has signed the tender. That has remained consistent back then and is consistent with reports now. If you have evidence refuting that, feel free to back your point up.
As far as the Cooks situation goes, that deal is done. Patriots have him already. If that was the Saints leverage, it's gone. This is no longer the same deal. And if it was, which there is no evidence to back you up on that, it was horrible planning by the Saints.
Now to the greater point, no the Saints look really bad if they are knowingly working out a deal with a player and not the team they need to agree to a trade. Sorry that's just business. Unless they are willing to give up the 11, anything they talk to Butler about is at the mercy of the Patriots. And considering every single credible report has indicating the Patriots haven't talked to Butler or the Saints in this regard, that is where it stands. So right now the Saints are allegedly working out a deal with a player that they can only get if they offer the 11. That's the only way to ensure that deal has any meaning. |
Saints wouldn't look bad at all. Stop. They'd simply tell Butler, look we really want you but the Patriots are refusing to work out a trade with us and we can't justify moving the 11th pick for you.
If Butler gets upset with that, so be it. The Saints aren't going to give up the 11th pick to "not look bad". That's VERY wishful thinking. I also don't believe for a second the Saints and Patriots haven't, at the least, had brief discussions on what compensation would look like. |
First off cool it with the "Stop." stuff. Because you can believe whatever you want, but every report about this has been consistent from multiple sources. So until you provide evidence otherwise, I'm going to go with Belichick is staying consistent to a business practice regarding the tender that he has held firm to his whole career.
It's business 101, and make no mistake, this is a business transaction. If a company negotiates a contract with one party, knowing full well that they won't pull the trigger on any deal without the approval of a third party, they should be negotiating with the third party first. Otherwise they are dicking around and wasting everybody's time. It's bad business and it hurts credibility.
I'm not saying they have to give up the 11. But if they aren't, then they better be talking to the Patriots. Because the Patriots have no obligation to help them make their deal with Butler work.
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lancerman
Joined: 06 Feb 2011
Posts: 8685
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| MookieMonster wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | | wackywabbit wrote: | | lancerman wrote: | So Rappaport is reporting that Butler and the Saints have talked and both sides are close to finding a longterm deal that is acceptable.
The major caveat being that the Patriots have not discussed anything with Saints or Butler.
Which puts the Saints in a weird position. Because the Patriots can continue to sit on their hand and tell Butler to sign an offer, which if that happens puts the Saints 11 at risk or puts Malcolm at risk for a match. And it's going to be a really strange scenario if the Saints work something out with Butler and the Patriots don't offer an olive branch, and now the Saints are in a put up or shut up situation that makes them look bad if at the last minute they pull an offer because they won't put the 11 up. |
You can't seriously believe that the Saints and Pats haven't talked trade value for Butler. There were Butler for Cooks rumors well before the Saints officially brought in Butler for talks. And now coincidentally? the Saints are the team most interested in Butler.
Even if you do believe that, your last sentence about the Saints looking bad if they don't put the 11 up is also wrong. They would look bad if they DID put the 11 up for Butler. That's much stupider than... what? Wasting time in negotiations? Butler could be back on the market as soon as next year, even if he plays out his tender in NE. |
Well first off that's the report. And almost everything that's been reported about this has said the Patriots, specifically Bill Belichick, will absolutely not discuss any deals with anybody who has signed the tender. That has remained consistent back then and is consistent with reports now. If you have evidence refuting that, feel free to back your point up.
As far as the Cooks situation goes, that deal is done. Patriots have him already. If that was the Saints leverage, it's gone. This is no longer the same deal. And if it was, which there is no evidence to back you up on that, it was horrible planning by the Saints.
Now to the greater point, no the Saints look really bad if they are knowingly working out a deal with a player and not the team they need to agree to a trade. Sorry that's just business. Unless they are willing to give up the 11, anything they talk to Butler about is at the mercy of the Patriots. And considering every single credible report has indicating the Patriots haven't talked to Butler or the Saints in this regard, that is where it stands. So right now the Saints are allegedly working out a deal with a player that they can only get if they offer the 11. That's the only way to ensure that deal has any meaning. |
Saints wouldn't look bad at all. Stop. They'd simply tell Butler, look we really want you but the Patriots are refusing to work out a trade with us and we can't justify moving the 11th pick for you.
If Butler gets upset with that, so be it. The Saints aren't going to give up the 11th pick to "not look bad". That's VERY wishful thinking. I also don't believe for a second the Saints and Patriots haven't, at the least, had brief discussions on what compensation would look like. |
First off cool it with the "Stop." stuff. Because you can believe whatever you want, but every report about this has been consistent from multiple sources. So until you provide evidence otherwise, I'm going to go with Belichick is staying consistent to a business practice regarding the tender that he has held firm to his whole career.
It's business 101, and make no mistake, this is a business transaction. If a company negotiates a contract with one party, knowing full well that they won't pull the trigger on any deal without the approval of a third party, they should be negotiating with the third party first. Otherwise they are dicking around and wasting everybody's time. It's bad business and it hurts credibility.
I'm not saying they have to give up the 11. But if they aren't, then they better be talking to the Patriots. Because the Patriots have no obligation to help them make their deal with Butler work.
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CriminalMind
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 8631
Location: Toronto, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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i see no reason for NE to take anything less the #11.
I see no reason why NO is talking to Butler, if no negoiations have already occured between NO & NE.
NE can just sit back
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Broncofan
Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3609
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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If people think NO and NE aren't talking...then I've got a bunch of cheap NY real estate for sale at bargain prices, people.
There's a reason this time of year is called the lying season.
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| steelpanther wrote: | | This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something. |
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lancerman
Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Broncofan wrote: | If people think NO and NE aren't talking...then I've got a bunch of cheap NY real estate for sale at bargain prices, people.
There's a reason this time of year is called the lying season. |
Belichick has a long standing practice of not discussing or negotiating with players who haven't signed their tender. Nearly every reporter connected to this story has said he is sticking to it. Every single one. The Patriots also have a long standing history of having trades happen almost immediately with very little rumor or speculation period (this has been going on for almost two weeks).
So maybe you are right, but it would be about the most uncharacteristic thing to happen.
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lancerman
Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Now Florio laid out a third option where a third team gets involved.
1. A team with a draft pick somewhere from 20-30 works out an agreement with the Saints where they give Butler an offer for something the Patriots won't match.
2. That team gives a low first round draft pick to the Patriots for Butle.r
3. The Saints trade the 11 to that team in return for Butler and a second round pick.
That is possible.
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m haynes
Joined: 29 Jan 2011
Posts: 1626
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Broncofan wrote: | If people think NO and NE aren't talking...then I've got a bunch of cheap NY real estate for sale at bargain prices, people.
There's a reason this time of year is called the lying season. |
There a reason why your real estate is named Goodell will screw you to the wall BB. |
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