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Ben Roethlisberger vs. Drew Brees
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Which QB are you taking?
Ben Roethlisberger
27%
 27%  [ 20 ]
Drew Brees
72%
 72%  [ 54 ]
Total Votes : 74

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LaserFocus


Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:

He wins those games because he has had a great defense through most of his time there. I shouldn't have to point out how throwing a butt load of picks hurts your chances of winning. Ben won a Super Bowl with a 22 passer rating. Ben has at times been straight up carried by top 3 defense. I get that you like him better but don't let it cloud your better judgment.

That people are unable to realize football is a team sport, and the ultimate team sport, and no one individual ever plays more than roughly 50% of the game, boggles my mind.


I'm curious as to when this happened... Like you realize half the reason people respond to you this way is your making up of crap like this...

Again, no issue with Brees being considered better but it's not as huge a gap as you're purporting. Especially when you harp on Ben's Defense but ignore that Brees has always had a great O-Line... (I'm using your same projective/overexagerative logic here).


You mean like that Super Bowl he won with a 22 passer rating? Or that AFCCG in 2010 where he passed for 133 yards 0 TDs, 2 picks and a 35 rating?

The argument here is that poster claiming Ben is a better postseason QB, and I just don't see it. I never claimed the gap is large like you're making up, I've never claimed Brees hasn't had an at worst decent o-line and sometimes great, and I couldn't give a rats [inappropriate/removed] how you or anyone else responds to me and I'm certainly not wondering about it.


Ben's 13-7 record is vastly superior to Brees' 6-5 mark, and his three SB appearances trump what Brees has accomplished. It's not fantasy football in the playoffs, and you forgot to mention the three strong postseason road wins leading to SBXL. Also, in the 2010 AFCTG, Ben was injured, so the Steelers concentrated on the running game, which was highly effective. And it was # 7 who hit a key third down conversion when the Jets were coming back.

Again, it's about timely plays, not just individual numbers in the postseason. Tony Romo hasn't been successful because he's failed to make key plays to help his team win. Also, just six playoff appearances in his entire career.
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LaserFocus


Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muddy, slippery conditions are actually a huge benefit to a WR. The WR knows when he is cutting, the CB is the one who has to react in slippery conditions.[/quote]


I always cringe when I hear about the "huge" advantage bad field conditions are to a WR. It's simply not true. The WR knows where he is cutting, but those cuts are at a slower rate than in good weather conditions. Also, catching the ball becomes more difficult in the cold. When you check the list of all time great receivers, most are from warmer weather or dome conditions. And the fact Brees had a big game against a so-so Steelers defense at Heinz Field means nothing in this discussion.
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Jetzger


Joined: 22 Nov 2014
Posts: 3381
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread reeks of winning bias.
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LaserFocus


Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetzger wrote:
This thread reeks of winning bias.


Winning is the primary objective of team sports, and that has a tendency to get lost in this era of fantasy football. Winning isn't the only measure of a QB, but it will always be important.
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Jlowe22


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 2519
Location: South Mississippi
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NoJobBob wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:
NoJobBob wrote:
MookieMonster wrote:
Big Ben is a great QB, Brees is just a better one. Any Steelers fan denying Big Ben had a better supporting cast for most of his career is totally full of it.
Yay for way oversimplifying it.
1) Not all those choosing Ben are Steelers fans.
2) Not all Steelers fans are choosing Ben.
3) There is way more that goes into the comparison than supporting cast.
4) It's extremely passable to say Brees has had a better supporting cast.
5) Just as important as supporting cast is playing conditions. Playing in a dome in the NFC South is unequivocally the best conditions any QB could have. Playing at Heinz Field in the AFC North is just about the worst conditions any QB faces.
6) The defenses Ben faces in division and in the AFC are much better than those Brees faces in the NFC South.
7) Regardless of all of this, I'd take Ben straight up.


I stopped reading at "Just as important as supporting cast is playing conditions"

I then LMAO because playing conditions affect both teams, supporting cast affects your own.

I then LMAO some more when I remembered Brees threw for 5 TDs 0 INT the last time he played at heinz field.
If you don't understand how bad weather affects a quarterback's stats and his offense'a performance, I don't know what to tell you. Must be nice playing in a dome and in a southern division and thus almost never having to play a weather game to the point where you as a fan don't understand what such a game is like. I now see why Brees was adamant about not going to a bad weather team when he was a FA.


Ok I'm done here. This debate(which wasn't even started me) was about Ben being a better postseason QB than Brees, and because of his wins. Wins are certainly affected by supporting cast more so than the playing conditions both teams have to play in, especially rare as they are.

I only brought up Ben's terrible games to demonstrate how silly using wins is to argue this point, and thus the focus on how his defense was good enough to get him wins while he played like garbage. I never said he has not played well at times, or that he is incapable of playing well, only that he doesn't necessarily have to play well to win the game, and can even win while playing like garbage.

I have said more than once Ben is a better QB than Brees in bad weather games, and that he does indeed do some things better than Brees.

You guys can quit pretending like I'm the one that's being unreasonable.
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LaserFocus


Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iknowcool wrote:
RuralBill wrote:
Bree's seems to be this forum's favorite player. Makes sense seeing as how people here put too much emphasis on stats.


Why do people keep using his stats against him?

His stats are great because he's a great QB. It has nothing to do with putting too much emphasis on stats. Some of you make it seem like he just chucks the ball 2,000 times a season with terrible efficiency.


Stats aren't the only measure of a player, and can also be deceiving at times. Tony Romo has great stats, but isn't a great QB, and barring a late career resurgence, won't be a hall of famer. Drew Brees is a HOF lock, but other QBs have won more, and that's the way it is. Winning in the postseason is also a measure of a player.
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BlaqOptic


Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 43608
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlowe22 wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:
Jlowe22 wrote:

He wins those games because he has had a great defense through most of his time there. I shouldn't have to point out how throwing a butt load of picks hurts your chances of winning. Ben won a Super Bowl with a 22 passer rating. Ben has at times been straight up carried by top 3 defense. I get that you like him better but don't let it cloud your better judgment.

That people are unable to realize football is a team sport, and the ultimate team sport, and no one individual ever plays more than roughly 50% of the game, boggles my mind.


I'm curious as to when this happened... Like you realize half the reason people respond to you this way is your making up of crap like this...

Again, no issue with Brees being considered better but it's not as huge a gap as you're purporting. Especially when you harp on Ben's Defense but ignore that Brees has always had a great O-Line... (I'm using your same projective/overexagerative logic here).


You mean like that Super Bowl he won with a 22 passer rating? Or that AFCCG in 2010 where he passed for 133 yards 0 TDs, 2 picks and a 35 rating?

The argument here is that poster claiming Ben is a better postseason QB, and I just don't see it. I never claimed the gap is large like you're making up, I've never claimed Brees hasn't had an at worst decent o-line and sometimes great, and I couldn't give a rats [inappropriate/removed] how you or anyone else responds to me and I'm certainly not wondering about it.


You don't seem to understand what carried means... Sure Ben had a terrible game in the Super Bowl but it ignores he was the catalyst for the team to get there in '05. As for the '11 game you're literally statbox watching... Quite literally if Hines Ward falls forward 1 yard Ben gets a TD pass added to that total. If Mendenhall doesn't fall down one can make the argument he gets into the endzone on another reception (which Ben then turned into a rushing TD). He accounted for every one of their first downs on third down. His Interception came about as a result of Rashard Mendenhall letting the pass bounce off his hands. The second pick was just a boneheaded throw into triple coverage after the play got busted. No need to throw it. Again, not even arguing Brees or Ben at this point. Just that you clearly haven't watched Ben if you think at any point he's been carried in his career.
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FourThreeMafia wrote:

Quote:
I like PFF.

Go straight to hell.
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LaserFocus


Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iknowcool wrote:
Quote:
And tell me again how when Ben was with a Bottom half of the league Defense he was routinely going 8-8 and, quite literally, was one game away from the post-season for 2 consecutive years compared to Brees' 6 losing seasons?


That isn't a fair comparison. There is a difference between being a bottom half of the league defense and being probably the worst defense in the NFL. The worst the Steelers have finished in points allowed since Ben came was 18th in 2014.

Saints Defensive PPG since Brees was the QB (in order from 2016-2006):
31, 32, 28, 4, 31, 13, 7, 20, 26, 25, 13

They have made the playoffs every year there defense was 20 or better in PPG. The fact that he's even getting them to 7-9 is impressive. I see no reason to think Ben would have fared better in Brees' situation. And that isn't a knock against Ben. Nobody is going to consistently field a winning team with defenses that suck that much.



And that's just life in the NFL, better franchises which win more often usually field better defenses. Nobody deserves "x" amount of playoff appearances, but Ben has a better postseason resume than Brees, and many other QBs already in the HOF. He's had double the postseason opportunities, but still had to cash in on them.
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poorbytehshore


Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 3744
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brees, comfortably
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LaserFocus


Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RuralBill wrote:
Bree's seems to be this forum's favorite player. Makes sense seeing as how people here put too much emphasis on stats.

Give me Ben. He is clutch, adapts very well to different styles of play, and is much tougher, proving he can play well in many bad weather games and stand up to much more punishing defenses.


The younger crowd tends to be more stat-orientated, like the trend has been in baseball. Of course, data will always have limitations, including adjusting for era and location.

The other factor at play is the continuing mythology surrounding Ben's career, that somehow luck has been involved, and he's been magically carried by the defense. Lastly, there's some perception about the off field allegations in Georgia, where charges weren't even filed. Add it up, and some fans just won't admit we're watching a first ballot HOF QB with great success in the postseason.
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MookieMonster


Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 2988
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaserFocus wrote:
RuralBill wrote:
Bree's seems to be this forum's favorite player. Makes sense seeing as how people here put too much emphasis on stats.

Give me Ben. He is clutch, adapts very well to different styles of play, and is much tougher, proving he can play well in many bad weather games and stand up to much more punishing defenses.


The younger crowd tends to be more stat-orientated, like the trend has been in baseball. Of course, data will always have limitations, including adjusting for era and location.

The other factor at play is the continuing mythology surrounding Ben's career, that somehow luck has been involved, and he's been magically carried by the defense. Lastly, there's some perception about the off field allegations in Georgia, where charges weren't even filed. Add it up, and some fans just won't admit we're watching a first ballot HOF QB with great success in the postseason.

No one has ever discredited Ben as a QB, and I think everyone in this thread would (or should) consider Big Ben a HOF QB.

He's just not as good as Brees. Thats no diss, the guy has been a top 4 QB for the past decade.
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MookieMonster


Joined: 17 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaserFocus wrote:
iknowcool wrote:
Quote:
And tell me again how when Ben was with a Bottom half of the league Defense he was routinely going 8-8 and, quite literally, was one game away from the post-season for 2 consecutive years compared to Brees' 6 losing seasons?


That isn't a fair comparison. There is a difference between being a bottom half of the league defense and being probably the worst defense in the NFL. The worst the Steelers have finished in points allowed since Ben came was 18th in 2014.

Saints Defensive PPG since Brees was the QB (in order from 2016-2006):
31, 32, 28, 4, 31, 13, 7, 20, 26, 25, 13

They have made the playoffs every year there defense was 20 or better in PPG. The fact that he's even getting them to 7-9 is impressive. I see no reason to think Ben would have fared better in Brees' situation. And that isn't a knock against Ben. Nobody is going to consistently field a winning team with defenses that suck that much.



And that's just life in the NFL, better franchises which win more often usually field better defenses. Nobody deserves "x" amount of playoff appearances, but Ben has a better postseason resume than Brees, and many other QBs already in the HOF. He's had double the postseason opportunities, but still had to cash in on them.

Yeah, when discussing a QBs wins as a main argument point we should probably ignore half his roster and pretend teams play 1 on 1, QB vs QB, mano e mano.
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Aout


Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 842
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brees. Obviously.

The fact that there's even a thread on that topic shows the level of disrespect Brees is shown on this forum.
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Breesus mode


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 7174
Location: Tucson Arizona
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aout wrote:
Brees. Obviously.

The fact that there's even a thread on that topic shows the level of disrespect Brees is shown on this forum.

Uh, no, it's a lot closer than you'd like admit.
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catcheryea wrote:
DalCowboyzRule wrote:
you missed a crying jordan in the middle of your sig man.
you missed a bowl game at the end of your season
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l3lind golfer


Most Valuable Poster (6th Ballot)

Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 53318
Location: California
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seminoles1 wrote:
I'd take Brees easily. I wouldn't even consider Roethlisberger for a second.
This.
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